allegedly Statement on Ricky Burns and Paul Smith

[bripez]

I thought there were board rules on purse payments that Warren had allegedly broken on multiple occasions?

Board rules say any purse up to £5k (I think, couldbe £3k) must be paid in cash on the night, and anything over this has to be paid within seven days.

The official Board response was that they could not look into any allegations unless a boxer made a formal complaint - and (not surprisingly) no boxers (other than the high profile court cases we know about) were prepared to do this as it would affect their future earnings.

[spudder56]

I thought there were board rules on purse payments that Warren had allegedly broken on multiple occasions?

Board rules say any purse up to £5k (I think, couldbe £3k) must be paid in cash on the night, and anything over this has to be paid within seven days.

The official Board response was that they could not look into any allegations unless a boxer made a formal complaint - and (not surprisingly) no boxers (other than the high profile court cases we know about) were prepared to do this as it would affect their future earnings.

Also likewise the board can only adjudicate on contracts agreements etc that are board contracts so when will boxers and their managers ever learn only enter into board agreements and contracts etc the board cannot intervene in civil matters which most disputes usually are I.e boxers and managers signing contracts with the promotors promotional ltd company etc instead of the promotor leaving them exposed to the promotional company ceasing trading and henceforth leaving them as a creditor the board can and will intervene and help with disputes between licence holders but they cannot intervene when the dispute is between a licence holder and a limited company which is not a licence holder

[palooka]

I thought there were board rules on purse payments that Warren had allegedly broken on multiple occasions?

Board rules say any purse up to £5k (I think, couldbe £3k) must be paid in cash on the night, and anything over this has to be paid within seven days.

The official Board response was that they could not look into any allegations unless a boxer made a formal complaint - and (not surprisingly) no boxers (other than the high profile court cases we know about) were prepared to do this as it would affect their future earnings.

Also likewise the board can only adjudicate on contracts agreements etc that are board contracts so when will boxers and their managers ever learn only enter into board agreements and contracts etc the board cannot intervene in civil matters which most disputes usually are I.e boxers and managers signing contracts with the promotors promotional ltd company etc instead of the promotor leaving them exposed to the promotional company ceasing trading and henceforth leaving them as a creditor the board can and will intervene and help with disputes between licence holders but they cannot intervene when the dispute is between a licence holder and a limited company which is not a licence holder

Wouldn't it be better if the boxer had to sign a contract like that with a member of the BBBoC present?

[spudder56]

That's one option which could be looked at mate but at the end of the day the manager should always go through any documents put in front of him and his boxer and take advice off the board before signing to make sure it comes under the boards juristriction if it all goes pear shaped but if they sign documents with limited companies they have only themselves to blame IMO

[palooka]

Thanks for the response

I think some boxers and managers are intimidated by the bigger fish and allow themselves to be sold a crock rather than ask questions that might rock the boat.

[spudder56]

Thanks for the response

I think some boxers and managers are intimidated by the bigger fish and allow themselves to be sold a crock rather than ask questions that might rock the boat.

If the manager is intimidated by these so called bigger fish then he shouldn't be in the game as he is failing to look after the interests of his boxer who pays him to represent him and look after his interests IMO

[palooka]

Thanks for the response

I think some boxers and managers are intimidated by the bigger fish and allow themselves to be sold a crock rather than ask questions that might rock the boat.

If the manager is intimidated by these so called bigger fish then he shouldn't be in the game as he is failing to look after the interests of his boxer who pays him to represent him and look after his interests IMO

I agree Spudder but it does look as though managers are allowing or guiding their fighter into signing these out of board rules contracts; it's happening too often for it to be accidental. I think the board should have one day every 3 months when boxers are allowed to sign up and they have to do it at the board officers who would then check the paperwork; it'd save the lawyers a lot of time in the long run.

[bripez]

I thought there were board rules on purse payments that Warren had allegedly broken on multiple occasions?

Board rules say any purse up to £5k (I think, couldbe £3k) must be paid in cash on the night, and anything over this has to be paid within seven days.

The official Board response was that they could not look into any allegations unless a boxer made a formal complaint - and (not surprisingly) no boxers (other than the high profile court cases we know about) were prepared to do this as it would affect their future earnings.

Also likewise the board can only adjudicate on contracts agreements etc that are board contracts so when will boxers and their managers ever learn only enter into board agreements and contracts etc the board cannot intervene in civil matters which most disputes usually are I.e boxers and managers signing contracts with the promotors promotional ltd company etc instead of the promotor leaving them exposed to the promotional company ceasing trading and henceforth leaving them as a creditor the board can and will intervene and help with disputes between licence holders but they cannot intervene when the dispute is between a licence holder and a limited company which is not a licence holder

That is convenient - the Board have a get-out to not get involved and the only loser is the individual boxer.

It is alright people saying they shouldn't have signed the contract or should have hired a lawyer etc. but when the option is to sign what you are given and you can't afford the specialist advice then you are snookered.

[Parson Cross]

You talk as though legal advice on a contract costs a fortune - it doesn't.
Just because there is no end product fighters won't pay - fact.
Then when its goes pear shaped always someone else's fault.
Fighters need to value peace of mind.

[palooka]

You talk as though legal advice on a contract costs a fortune - it doesn't.
Just because there is no end product fighters won't pay - fact.
Then when its goes pear shaped always someone else's fault.
Fighters need to value peace of mind.

Your'e better having a full belly than peace of mind; what 'doesn't cost a fortune' is relative to how much disposable income someone has. There ought to be a standard contract approved by the board and if there are to be any alterations it should be explained to the board and the person doing the alterations ought to pay for a lawyer to advise. The board has being going a long time and it ought to be very clear who it is there for and what it is there to do.

[bripez]

You talk as though legal advice on a contract costs a fortune - it doesn't.
Just because there is no end product fighters won't pay - fact.
Then when its goes pear shaped always someone else's fault.
Fighters need to value peace of mind.

Your'e better having a full belly than peace of mind; what 'doesn't cost a fortune' is relative to how much disposable income someone has. There ought to be a standard contract approved by the board and if there are to be any alterations it should be explained to the board and the person doing the alterations ought to pay for a lawyer to advise. The board has being going a long time and it ought to be very clear who it is there for and what it is there to do.

I agree.

Also, don't forget that for the boxer it might be the first legal contract that they have ever signed in their life, whereas the other party will likely have have signed thousands.

Also, it would require very specialist legal advice - can you just imagine the kind of clauses, sub-clauses and all kinds of legal jiggery-pockery that can go into one of the contracts?

You can't just pop into town and ask the local solicitor to give it the once over as part of a free half hour appointment.

[spudder56]

You talk as though legal advice on a contract costs a fortune - it doesn't.
Just because there is no end product fighters won't pay - fact.
Then when its goes pear shaped always someone else's fault.
Fighters need to value peace of mind.

Your'e better having a full belly than peace of mind; what 'doesn't cost a fortune' is relative to how much disposable income someone has. There ought to be a standard contract approved by the board and if there are to be any alterations it should be explained to the board and the person doing the alterations ought to pay for a lawyer to advise. The board has being going a long time and it ought to be very clear who it is there for and what it is there to do.

That's my point mate there are standard board contracts mate same as there are board contracts for every contest with the purse etc on them but the vast majority of managers don't use them I have been to many shows over many years where there have been disputes over money I.e manager I was promised £1500 for this fight but the promotor has only paid us £1000 so the board official asks them for a copy of the contract so he can take it up with the promotor on their behalf to which invariably the reply is we haven't got a contract so this is another case of the manager failing in his duties to his boxer by not getting a contract for the contest beleive me this happens all the time and they always blame the board for their own incompetence

[palooka]

You talk as though legal advice on a contract costs a fortune - it doesn't.
Just because there is no end product fighters won't pay - fact.
Then when its goes pear shaped always someone else's fault.
Fighters need to value peace of mind.

Your'e better having a full belly than peace of mind; what 'doesn't cost a fortune' is relative to how much disposable income someone has. There ought to be a standard contract approved by the board and if there are to be any alterations it should be explained to the board and the person doing the alterations ought to pay for a lawyer to advise. The board has being going a long time and it ought to be very clear who it is there for and what it is there to do.

That's my point mate there are standard board contracts mate same as there are board contracts for every contest with the purse etc on them but the vast majority of managers don't use them I have been to many shows over many years where there have been disputes over money I.e manager I was promised £1500 for this fight but the promotor has only paid us £1000 so the board official asks them for a copy of the contract so he can take it up with the promotor on their behalf to which invariably the reply is we haven't got a contract so this is another case of the manager failing in his duties to his boxer by not getting a contract for the contest beleive me this happens all the time and they always blame the board for their own incompetence

They shouldn't be able to get away with it. The board has altered the sport for the better in many ways eg safety requirements, Fast people are always going to try it on and it shouldn't be allowed, if that is happening over and over the the loophole needs to be closed. The contracts for a show ought to be placed with the board at least a week before the boxing so any niggles can be sorted.

[Noxy]

Maybe allegedly can use some of the money to pay back Calzaghe from that company that ceased trading

It's pretty mental that in this country you can just wind down a company, and start another one, thereby avoiding paying your creditors - I don't understand how the law is so lax as to allow that to happen - is there no personal liability in these instances?

Well if you wind down the company whatever assets the company has left have to be used to pay the creditors. If there aren't enough assets to pay all of them, some creditors won't get their money. It's hard but that's "business" outside the UK as well. As for personal liability, I'm not sure. I've not heard of it being used in this sort of scenario but I'm no expert on the ins and outs of it either.

[expe]

Your'e better having a full belly than peace of mind; what 'doesn't cost a fortune' is relative to how much disposable income someone has. There ought to be a standard contract approved by the board and if there are to be any alterations it should be explained to the board and the person doing the alterations ought to pay for a lawyer to advise. The board has being going a long time and it ought to be very clear who it is there for and what it is there to do.

That's my point mate there are standard board contracts mate same as there are board contracts for every contest with the purse etc on them but the vast majority of managers don't use them I have been to many shows over many years where there have been disputes over money I.e manager I was promised £1500 for this fight but the promotor has only paid us £1000 so the board official asks them for a copy of the contract so he can take it up with the promotor on their behalf to which invariably the reply is we haven't got a contract so this is another case of the manager failing in his duties to his boxer by not getting a contract for the contest beleive me this happens all the time and they always blame the board for their own incompetence

They shouldn't be able to get away with it. The board has altered the sport for the better in many ways eg safety requirements, Fast people are always going to try it on and it shouldn't be allowed, if that is happening over and over the the loophole needs to be closed. The contracts for a show ought to be placed with the board at least a week before the boxing so any niggles can be sorted.

Problem with that is that a lot of fights are made at short notice, certainly less than a week. Without a contract it's the word of one man against another and if either party takes it to court, it's out of the boards control, they don't have the power to overrule a courts decision.

They should use the standard contract for fights like that(I'm presuming it was a journeyman brought in as an opponent) because it would make things a lot easier. But I doubt it contains any provision for options and all the other clauses that go into contracts and probably not for the long term deals that many fighters sign with promoters. The only solution really is for the fighter/manager to get a good lawyer in to look through the contract, explain exactly what's in there and what it all means. It doesn't matter where any disputes go to, whether the board or the courts, because if the promoter has breached the contract they should win the case with a decent lawyer representing them.

[spudder56]

Palooka all the manager has to do if he is called in as a late substitute or indeed take any contest on behalf of his boxer is insist that all offers of purses contest duration etc are confirmed by email or text and not just by phone coz the email or text constitutes a contract but for some reason they take the phone call as gospel truth and then blame the board for everything when it goes pear shaped I am a firm believer in the statement that the boxer employs the manager to look after his best interests so if he isn't insisting in confirmation of the contest by email or at least text he is not doing his job IMO

[palooka]

Thanks for explaining spudder

It seems a bit of a rickety way of going around a sport that has been so established in the UK and seems like the wild west. The thing is the managers must be getting something out of it or else they wouldn't do it - it looks like it's the boxer getting peeled.

[spudder56]

Thanks for explaining spudder

It seems a bit of a rickety way of going around a sport that has been so established in the UK and seems like the wild west. The thing is the managers must be getting something out of it or else they wouldn't do it - it looks like it's the boxer getting peeled.

You said that not me lol

[palooka]

Thanks for explaining spudder

It seems a bit of a rickety way of going around a sport that has been so established in the UK and seems like the wild west. The thing is the managers must be getting something out of it or else they wouldn't do it - it looks like it's the boxer getting peeled.

You said that not me lol

[spudder56]

Thanks for explaining spudder

It seems a bit of a rickety way of going around a sport that has been so established in the UK and seems like the wild west. The thing is the managers must be getting something out of it or else they wouldn't do it - it looks like it's the boxer getting peeled.

You said that not me lol

And it will not change mate beleive me I have heard the lot over the years

[palooka]

If the manager isn't happy with his cut of the purse then he ought to bargain for a better purse for the fighter, not diddle them out of it. It must be a hard enough way to earn a few quid without having to watch someone you're friendly with and speak to regularly around your pockets.

I imagine there are more than a few clever and dodgy people around though and making things stick must take some doing.

[spudder56]

If the manager isn't happy with his cut of the purse then he ought to bargain for a better purse for the fighter, not diddle them out of it. It must be a hard enough way to earn a few quid without having to watch someone you're friendly with and speak to regularly around your pockets.

I imagine there are more than a few clever and dodgy people around though and making things stick must take some doing.

Yes mate the manager is entitled to 25% of the purse after expenses I will leave you to work that one out

[magwitch]

You talk as though legal advice on a contract costs a fortune - it doesn't.
Just because there is no end product fighters won't pay - fact.
Then when its goes pear shaped always someone else's fault.
Fighters need to value peace of mind.

Your'e better having a full belly than peace of mind; what 'doesn't cost a fortune' is relative to how much disposable income someone has. There ought to be a standard contract approved by the board and if there are to be any alterations it should be explained to the board and the person doing the alterations ought to pay for a lawyer to advise. The board has being going a long time and it ought to be very clear who it is there for and what it is there to do.

I agree.

Also, don't forget that for the boxer it might be the first legal contract that they have ever signed in their life, whereas the other party will likely have have signed thousands.

Also, it would require very specialist legal advice - can you just imagine the kind of clauses, sub-clauses and all kinds of legal jiggery-pockery that can go into one of the contracts?

You can't just pop into town and ask the local solicitor to give it the once over as part of a free half hour appointment.

I was thinking this. Most solicitors wouldn't be familiar with boxing and for a short notice fight you'd have no chance of getting a straight answer but would likely get tipped up for 150 quid anyway.

[Boxerbeetle]

Maybe allegedly can use some of the money to pay back Calzaghe from that company that ceased trading

It's pretty mental that in this country you can just wind down a company, and start another one, thereby avoiding paying your creditors - I don't understand how the law is so lax as to allow that to happen - is there no personal liability in these instances?

Well if you wind down the company whatever assets the company has left have to be used to pay the creditors. If there aren't enough assets to pay all of them, some creditors won't get their money. It's hard but that's "business" outside the UK as well. As for personal liability, I'm not sure. I've not heard of it being used in this sort of scenario but I'm no expert on the ins and outs of it either.

That's the whole point of a limited company - it prevents an individual from being personally liable. If everyone was held personally liable for their potential business debts, it would become almost impossible to set-up a new business unless you were already loaded, else your life could easily be ruined by bankruptcy.

Unfortunately like any system, it's open for abuse. Perhaps they should look at introducing a law where, if it has been deemed that an individual has a history of liquidating companies as a way of avoiding paying creditors, that individual can only set-up an unlimited company in the future? (Not that I'm suggesting anything similar happened in this particular case, of course)

[palooka]

Your'e better having a full belly than peace of mind; what 'doesn't cost a fortune' is relative to how much disposable income someone has. There ought to be a standard contract approved by the board and if there are to be any alterations it should be explained to the board and the person doing the alterations ought to pay for a lawyer to advise. The board has being going a long time and it ought to be very clear who it is there for and what it is there to do.[/quote]

I agree.

Also, don't forget that for the boxer it might be the first legal contract that they have ever signed in their life, whereas the other party will likely have have signed thousands.

Also, it would require very specialist legal advice - can you just imagine the kind of clauses, sub-clauses and all kinds of legal jiggery-pockery that can go into one of the contracts?

You can't just pop into town and ask the local solicitor to give it the once over as part of a free half hour appointment.[/quote]

I was thinking this. Most solicitors wouldn't be familiar with boxing and for a short notice fight you'd have no chance of getting a straight answer but would likely get tipped up for 150 quid anyway.[/quote]

And that's just for the photocopying.