Are There Any Fighters That Woud Have....

[CrazyHorse]

Yes I have watched most of Ali's fights. He is one of my favorites. My point was to illustrate that I do not believe any one fighter was so supreme that they could beat every other champion ever. Not Muhammad Ali, not SRR, no one. Any fighter that supreme, even slightly out of prime, should have no trouble with contenders and the like. Ali was great no doubt, but there is no way he or anyone else is able to defeat every other champion. Too many great fighters to run that gauntlet.

But you are comparing a past prime ali to other prime fighters. Ali needed more tune up fights before getting in there with Frazier to begin with. Just how its unfair to say a 22 yr old ali would have destroyed a post prison tyson.

[elmersalsa]

The great Muhammad Ali is the MOST FAMOUS PERSON OF THE 20TH CENTURY.

He is, in my view, the best heavyweight ever in my view, but, on March 8, 1971, he found his match. He got whuuped

So you are saying Ali was the best ever, therefore, prime Ali would have beaten FOC Frazier?

He beats Smokin' Joe any day and prime, except on March 8, 1971. Like I have said before, NOBODY BEATS THAT JOE FRAZIER OF FOTC...NOBODY.

Ali was better than Frazier when it comes to accomplishments.

[palooka]

The great Muhammad Ali is the MOST FAMOUS PERSON OF THE 20TH CENTURY.

He is, in my view, the best heavyweight ever in my view, but, on March 8, 1971, he found his match. He got whuuped

So you are saying Ali was the best ever, therefore, prime Ali would have beaten FOC Frazier?

He beats Smokin' Joe any day and prime, except on March 8, 1971. Like I have said before, NOBODY BEATS THAT JOE FRAZIER OF FOTC...NOBODY.

Ali was better than Frazier when it comes to accomplishments.

Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis and prime Riddick Bowe would have knocked fist shaped holes in Joe.

[keithmoonhangover]

He beats Smokin' Joe any day and prime, except on March 8, 1971. Like I have said before, NOBODY BEATS THAT JOE FRAZIER OF FOTC...NOBODY.

So for any other night of Frazier's career prime Ali beats him?

[punchoutsb]

Yes I have watched most of Ali's fights. He is one of my favorites. My point was to illustrate that I do not believe any one fighter was so supreme that they could beat every other champion ever. Not Muhammad Ali, not SRR, no one. Any fighter that supreme, even slightly out of prime, should have no trouble with contenders and the like. Ali was great no doubt, but there is no way he or anyone else is able to defeat every other champion. Too many great fighters to run that gauntlet.

But you are comparing a past prime ali to other prime fighters. Ali needed more tune up fights before getting in there with Frazier to begin with. Just how its unfair to say a 22 yr old ali would have destroyed a post prison tyson.

No I'm not. I used Ali as an example because he was used in one of the first posts. I'm saying no prime fighter ever is good enough to beat every other prime champion in their division. Nobody.

[hhaehre]

Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis and prime Riddick Bowe would have knocked fist shaped holes in Joe.

Because Frazier was beaten by Foreman he must be real fragile right? Lucien Rodriguez goes 12 with Holmes but Frazier is destroyed and prime Riddick Bowe barely got by an old Tony Tubbs but he steamrolls Frazier? Lewis was good but if McCall could knock him out....

[elmersalsa]

He beats Smokin' Joe any day and prime, except on March 8, 1971. Like I have said before, NOBODY BEATS THAT JOE FRAZIER OF FOTC...NOBODY.

So for any other night of Frazier's career prime Ali beats him?

Is a great possibility. Outside the FTOC, is a 50-50 toss up.

[elmersalsa]

He beats Smokin' Joe any day and prime, except on March 8, 1971. Like I have said before, NOBODY BEATS THAT JOE FRAZIER OF FOTC...NOBODY.

Ali was better than Frazier when it comes to accomplishments.

Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis and prime Riddick Bowe would have knocked fist shaped holes in Joe.

Not on March 8, 1971 they wouldn't

[keithmoonhangover]

He beats Smokin' Joe any day and prime, except on March 8, 1971. Like I have said before, NOBODY BEATS THAT JOE FRAZIER OF FOTC...NOBODY.

Ali was better than Frazier when it comes to accomplishments.

Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis and prime Riddick Bowe would have knocked fist shaped holes in Joe.

What would Grazier do differently to beat Foreman?

Not on March 8, 1971 they wouldn't

[CrazyHorse]

The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams would have beaten (FOTC) Frazier. Ali at his best was something else. Frazier beat an Ali coming off a 3 year lay off and distractions. Ali was still great by then but not at his peak like he was in the WIlliams fight

[keithmoonhangover]

The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams would have beaten (FOTC) Frazier. Ali at his best was something else. Frazier beat an Ali coming off a 3 year lay off and distractions. Ali was still great by then but not at his peak like he was in the WIlliams fight

Yep.

[elmersalsa]

The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams would have beaten (FOTC) Frazier. Ali at his best was something else. Frazier beat an Ali coming off a 3 year lay off and distractions. Ali was still great by then but not at his peak like he was in the WIlliams fight

Maybe that great Muhammad Ali of the Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams or Ernie Terrell fight could have or would have beaten the great Smokin Joe in Joe's prime, but on March 8, 1971? I'll put my money on Frazier

[elmersalsa]

The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams would have beaten (FOTC) Frazier. Ali at his best was something else. Frazier beat an Ali coming off a 3 year lay off and distractions. Ali was still great by then but not at his peak like he was in the WIlliams fight

Ali was still good enough beating Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena by knockout. Some Smokin' Joe's supporters believe that Ali was still prime. Ali fought his ass off that night at FTOC, but, he got whipped by the better man. Give Frazier credit for the win. It was the biggest victory in boxing history

[CrazyHorse]

The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams would have beaten (FOTC) Frazier. Ali at his best was something else. Frazier beat an Ali coming off a 3 year lay off and distractions. Ali was still great by then but not at his peak like he was in the WIlliams fight

Ali was still good enough beating Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena by knockout. Some Smokin' Joe's supporters believe that Ali was still prime. Ali fought his ass off that night at FTOC, but, he got whipped by the better man. Give Frazier credit for the win. It was the biggest victory in boxing history

I never said Ali wasnt good, and im not saying it to take credit away from smokin joe because he is one of my fav heavyweights and seemed like such a nice man. but in reality the ali that fought frazier was not the same fighter pre suspension. ali was still an elite fighter but if you look at the last 5 fights pre suspension and look at how ali looked in the fights afterward you notice a lot of differences. he was never the same. Ali needed more time and a couple of more tune up fights or else he would have beaten frazier the first time. If ali wasnt drafted into the war Frazier or Foreman would have never became champion. Ali would have stayed active and dominated the 60s and 70s

bottom line is we got robbed of seeing the best of muhammad ali.

[elmersalsa]

The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams would have beaten (FOTC) Frazier. Ali at his best was something else. Frazier beat an Ali coming off a 3 year lay off and distractions. Ali was still great by then but not at his peak like he was in the WIlliams fight

Ali was still good enough beating Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena by knockout. Some Smokin' Joe's supporters believe that Ali was still prime. Ali fought his ass off that night at FTOC, but, he got whipped by the better man. Give Frazier credit for the win. It was the biggest victory in boxing history

I never said Ali wasnt good, and im not saying it to take credit away from smokin joe because he is one of my fav heavyweights and seemed like such a nice man. but in reality the ali that fought frazier was not the same fighter pre suspension. ali was still an elite fighter but if you look at the last 5 fights pre suspension and look at how ali looked in the fights afterward you notice a lot of differences. he was never the same. Ali needed more time and a couple of more tune up fights or else he would have beaten frazier the first time. If ali wasnt drafted into the war Frazier or Foreman would have never became champion. Ali would have stayed active and dominated the 60s and 70s

I don't know about that. That Smokin' Joe was a hell of a fighter. I believe that both in their primes, would've been a fantastic fight. But on the FOTC, is hard for me to pick a heavyweight, dead or alive, to beat him that night. Frazier was a TOTAL BEAST

[CrazyHorse]

George Foreman. The guy was just a bad style matchup for Joe.

[elmersalsa]

George Foreman. The guy was just a bad style matchup for Joe.

Yeah, in any other day. Not on March 8, 1971. The great Big George could win 100 fights against the great Smokin' Joe. But on TFOC? Different story.

[palooka]

George Foreman. The guy was just a bad style matchup for Joe.

Yeah, in any other day. Not on March 8, 1971. The great Big George could win 100 fights against the great Smokin' Joe. But on TFOC? Different story.

Frazier would not have been as motivated against any other than Ali; Joe was not unbeatable that one night, there was nothing magical but to be honest the obsession is gone past boring though your posts on other subjects are interesting and thought provoking.

[NateJR]

No such thing as a fighter that's unbeatable on any given night.. We can debate till we're red in the face that a fighter on a particular night couldn't have been beaten. But like I said, no matter how tough and good you are there's always someone out there that can kick your ass.

[keithmoonhangover]

The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams would have beaten (FOTC) Frazier. Ali at his best was something else. Frazier beat an Ali coming off a 3 year lay off and distractions. Ali was still great by then but not at his peak like he was in the WIlliams fight

Ali was still good enough beating Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena by knockout. Some Smokin' Joe's supporters believe that Ali was still prime. Ali fought his ass off that night at FTOC, but, he got whipped by the better man. Give Frazier credit for the win. It was the biggest victory in boxing history

How did you score the FOTC?

[hhaehre]

No such thing as a fighter that's unbeatable on any given night.. We can debate till we're red in the face that a fighter on a particular night couldn't have been beaten. But like I said, no matter how tough and good you are there's always someone out there that can kick your ass.

Spot on.
Based on the 3 fights Ali and Frazier had I fail to see how anyone could predict the outcome of a hypothetical fight between them in 68-69 with any kind of certainty. The were so evenly matched and it's not like Ali was a totally different fighter before his layoff. Oh, and Norton had Ali's number and could have beaten him at any stage in Ali's career.

[elmersalsa]

The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams would have beaten (FOTC) Frazier. Ali at his best was something else. Frazier beat an Ali coming off a 3 year lay off and distractions. Ali was still great by then but not at his peak like he was in the WIlliams fight

Ali was still good enough beating Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena by knockout. Some Smokin' Joe's supporters believe that Ali was still prime. Ali fought his ass off that night at FTOC, but, he got whipped by the better man. Give Frazier credit for the win. It was the biggest victory in boxing history

How did you score the FOTC?

I had Smokin' Joe winning 145-141 or 8-5-2 in rounds.
Rounds 11th and 15th were huge for Frazier. He definitely deserved the victory. The great Muhammad Ali fought one of his best fights, even though he lost. No shame in that.

[keithmoonhangover]

[I had Smokin' Joe winning 145-141 or 8-5-2 in rounds.
Rounds 11th and 15th were huge for Frazier. He definitely deserved the victory. The great Muhammad Ali fought one of his best fights, even though he lost. No shame in that.

That's a pretty close score, the way you've been talking about the fight, I thought you would have scored it much wider for Frazier.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Robinson at welterweight, Duran at Lightweight

Benny Leonard would beat Duran IMO.

Yes Benny would .............BUT ONLY IN HIS DREAM'S