Aaron Pryor & Sugar Ray Leonard

[Ambling Alp II]

It's not like we are saying that a flyweight can be a heavyweight. However, a fighter in a smaller weight class usually can comfortably move up up and be very successful in at least two weight classes during his career.
If you think about it, it makes sense. A boxer usually turns pro in his late teens or early 20s. Most people's bodies has not filled out by then. A pro football player who later is usually going to weigh more during his pro career than he did when he was in his late teens and early 20s when he was in high school and college.

Even the De La Hoya example shows this. He started his career at 130. Then he moved up to 135. Then 140. Then 147. Then 154. He did well at all of these weight classes.

As ClivePatrickLyons alludes to, we can make a list of fighters who moved up successfully. I don't think we would have trouble coming up with 100 names. (elmer will ignore it and still make the same silly claims despite it.) However, maybe some reasonable people who do think it's such a big deal to move up in weight will come around and see that it's not that big of a deal.
I think maybe I will start a new thread with a list when I get a chance.

[elmersalsa]

All I am saying is that going up in weight is a BIG DIFFERENCE. You are not as quick nor as agile when you are accustomed to be in one class for the most part of a boxer's career.

I can clearly see that the great Aaron Pryor moving up to welter would be SUICIDAL. He knew it, his people around him knew it, and the boxing pundits knew it.

NOT TOO MANY FIGHTERS HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL DOMINATING THEIR FORMER WEIGHT CLASS. THAT IS A RULE IN BOXING, Alp.

[elmersalsa]

Not too many boxers have been successful dominating other weight classes above their natural weight.

That is a rule in boxing. Pryor vs Leonard is one big example of the bigger and great fighter, beats the smaller great fighter. There are too many examples. We know it. We don't have to go there, should we?

[elmersalsa]

It's not a big deal for anyone; it's been proven time and time again that it isn't.
No, Pryor would not have beaten Ray Leonard. No one has disputed that on this thread. That's mainly because Leonard was too good.
However, Pryor could have beat many good welterweights.

The Hawk would have DIFFICULTY fighting welterweights. He ONLY WANTED the Leonard fight because that was the only motivation $$$$$$$$. A seven figure pay day. That's what was all about.

Pipino Cuevas would crush Pryor. OMG! He would be ALL WRONG for The Hawk, no matter how talented he was. Felix "Tito" Trinidad? That is SUICIDAL! OMG!
I could see it from jump street. Pryor would be sent to the Jr welters

[Ambling Alp II]

Not too many boxers have been successful dominating other weight classes above their natural weight.

That is a rule in boxing. Pryor vs Leonard is one big example of the bigger and great fighter, beats the smaller great fighter. There are too many examples. We know it. We don't have to go there, should we?

Their "natural weight" is the key issue. I am saying that the vast majority of boxers' "natural weight" changes as they get older and their body fills out. They naturally get get used to gradually putting on weight; and I'm not talking about fat. A fighter "natural weight" might around 130 when he is 18 or 19. That probably isn't going to be his "natural weight" when his 27.

Leonard would beat Pryor because he was better than Pryor. It's not because Leonard was a little bigger.

As for fighters being successful at one more than weight, yes I would like to go there. There is one example after another of fighters doing it. Not that big of a deal at all.

[elmersalsa]

Sugar Ray would beat the Cincinnati Hawk because:
1. Leonard is physically stronger, faster and is comfortable in AT HIS OWN WEIGHT CLASS
2. THE KEY of almost every sport for success is speed. Pryor would be TOO SLOW at welterweight. He would not had the speed and reflexes that he had at lightweight and Jr welterweight. He is definitely OUT OF HIS WEIGHT RANGE (135-140lbs)
3. He won't be able to hurt Sugar Ray. How would he?
4. To tell the truth, Leonard is ALL WRONG FOR PRYOR no matter how you look at it. Pryor has too many DISADVANTAGES against him.
5. The great and bigger opponent would beat MOST OF THE TIME, the great and smaller opponent. That is the rule in boxing. It is a BIG DEAL.

[BoxBuzz]

It would have been a dream fight for Pryor.....Pryor gets knocked into dreamland.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Sugar Ray would beat the Cincinnati Hawk because:
1. Leonard is physically stronger, faster and is comfortable in AT HIS OWN WEIGHT CLASS
2. THE KEY of almost every sport for success is speed. Pryor would be TOO SLOW at welterweight. He would not had the speed and reflexes that he had at lightweight and Jr welterweight. He is definitely OUT OF HIS WEIGHT RANGE (135-140lbs)
3. He won't be able to hurt Sugar Ray. How would he?
4. To tell the truth, Leonard is ALL WRONG FOR PRYOR no matter how you look at it. Pryor has too many DISADVANTAGES against him.
5. The great and bigger opponent would beat MOST OF THE TIME, the great and smaller opponent. That is the rule in boxing. It is a BIG DEAL.

You poor bloke stop contradicting yourself you hit the nail on the head with the WORD'S MOST OF THE TIME......SO THAT MEENS NOT ALL THE TIME
you see how silly your view is and when was Pryor ever a lightweight what when he was a amateur or at the very start of his pro career if it was
he must a grew out of that weight class pretty quickly because I cannot recall seeing him at that weight anyway that's Duran weight lightweight
shit he won title's at middleweight how dare him he should have been toooooooooo smallllllllllll you see it's horse's for course's that's the bottom line so you see elmersalsa you are wrong Pryor would destroy Cuevas in about 9 round's the ambo's would be summoned :P look out the nearest hospital here PIPINO COMES

[elmersalsa]

Sugar Ray would beat the Cincinnati Hawk because:
1. Leonard is physically stronger, faster and is comfortable in AT HIS OWN WEIGHT CLASS
2. THE KEY of almost every sport for success is speed. Pryor would be TOO SLOW at welterweight. He would not had the speed and reflexes that he had at lightweight and Jr welterweight. He is definitely OUT OF HIS WEIGHT RANGE (135-140lbs)
3. He won't be able to hurt Sugar Ray. How would he?
4. To tell the truth, Leonard is ALL WRONG FOR PRYOR no matter how you look at it. Pryor has too many DISADVANTAGES against him.
5. The great and bigger opponent would beat MOST OF THE TIME, the great and smaller opponent. That is the rule in boxing. It is a BIG DEAL.

You poor bloke stop contradicting yourself you hit the nail on the head with the WORD'S MOST OF THE TIME......SO THAT MEENS NOT ALL THE TIME
you see how silly your view is and when was Pryor ever a lightweight what when he was a amateur or at the very start of his pro career if it was
he must a grew out of that weight class pretty quickly because I cannot recall seeing him at that weight anyway that's Duran weight lightweight
poo he won title's at middleweight how dare him he should have been toooooooooo smallllllllllll you see it's horse's for course's that's the bottom line so you see elmersalsa you are wrong Pryor would destroy Cuevas in about 9 round's the ambo's would be summoned :P look out the nearest hospital here PIPINO COMES

Aaron Pryor as great as he was is NOT ON THE SAME LEVEL of the great Roberto Duran. Duran was an exceptional fighter, the best of the last 50 years in my view.

Pipino vs the Cincinnati Hawk is a NASTY KO WIN for Cuevas. This is not a fair fight for Pryor.

[Ambling Alp II]

Sugar Ray would beat the Cincinnati Hawk because:
1. Leonard is physically stronger, faster and is comfortable in AT HIS OWN WEIGHT CLASS
2. THE KEY of almost every sport for success is speed. Pryor would be TOO SLOW at welterweight. He would not had the speed and reflexes that he had at lightweight and Jr welterweight. He is definitely OUT OF HIS WEIGHT RANGE (135-140lbs)
3. He won't be able to hurt Sugar Ray. How would he?
4. To tell the truth, Leonard is ALL WRONG FOR PRYOR no matter how you look at it. Pryor has too many DISADVANTAGES against him.
5. The great and bigger opponent would beat MOST OF THE TIME, the great and smaller opponent. That is the rule in boxing. It is a BIG DEAL.

For the umpteenth time, I am not saying Pryor would beat Leonard. No one on this thread has said that he would.
I am saying that Pryor would beat a lot of good welterweights. Fighters routinely move up in weight and adjust without much problem. Many are just as good and some are even better. Happens quite frequently. Has been happening since the 19th century.

[elmersalsa]

Sugar Ray would beat the Cincinnati Hawk because:
1. Leonard is physically stronger, faster and is comfortable in AT HIS OWN WEIGHT CLASS
2. THE KEY of almost every sport for success is speed. Pryor would be TOO SLOW at welterweight. He would not had the speed and reflexes that he had at lightweight and Jr welterweight. He is definitely OUT OF HIS WEIGHT RANGE (135-140lbs)
3. He won't be able to hurt Sugar Ray. How would he?
4. To tell the truth, Leonard is ALL WRONG FOR PRYOR no matter how you look at it. Pryor has too many DISADVANTAGES against him.
5. The great and bigger opponent would beat MOST OF THE TIME, the great and smaller opponent. That is the rule in boxing. It is a BIG DEAL.

For the umpteenth time, I am not saying Pryor would beat Leonard. No one on this thread has said that he would.
I am saying that Pryor would beat a lot of good welterweights. Fighters routinely move up in weight and adjust without much problem. Many are just as good and some are even better. Happens quite frequently. Has been happening since the 19th century.

I could see The Cincinnati Hawk beating the likes of Dave "Boy" Green and Pete Ranzany. They weren't all that. But a guy like Pipino Cuevas? It's SUICIDAL! This guy is one of the purest punchers and knockout artists that I have ever seen in my lifetime. Would Pryor's chin hold up against a devastating puncher like Cuevas? We are asking too much.

Not too many champions can't adapt to another weight class and dominate like their former class. It's all about weight classifications. You said that you can mention about 100 of them. That's ridiculous! It is a ridiculous statement.

You lose SPEED. That's the first thing a boxer loses, which is the key of almost every sport, especially, boxing.

Only a few, like the great Roy Jones, Jr, have been able to maintain the same speed, power and reflexes. That was one of the exceptions. Outside of that, there are very few in number.

[Ambling Alp II]

Cuevas never beat anyone that was "all that".
Think Pryor could have beat Andy Price?

[elmersalsa]

Cuevas never beat anyone that was "all that".
Think Pryor could have beat Andy Price?

No, he wouldn't As a matter of fact, put Andy Price in a rematch with Pipino and Price would have been destroyed. He beat a green Pipino.

Price was a good fighter and I think he'll send Pryor to the Jr welters, too.

[Ambling Alp II]

Cuevas lost to Price just a month before Cuevas won the title. He could not have been that green.
Now Andy Price would have beat Pryor? Wow.
Good to know that Davey Boy Green and Pete Ranzany were not "all that", but apparently Andy Price was "all that". Now I know where to draw the line.
Price looked awesome against Leonard, didn't he?

[elmersalsa]

Cuevas lost to Price just a month before Cuevas won the title. He could not have been that green.
Now Andy Price would have beat Pryor? Wow.
Good to know that Davey Boy Green and Pete Ranzany were not "all that", but apparently Andy Price was "all that". Now I know where to draw the line.
Price looked awesome against Leonard, didn't he?

Pipino STILL WAS A GREEN FIGHTER when he won the title. He was only 18 years old.

I have never said that Andy Price was all that. But, we got to give him credit that he was one of the top welters. He beat also Carlos Palomino. Pryor won't have the agility nor the speed to beat Price. You don't agree that Pryor was stronger than Price, ain't it?

[elmersalsa]

In my view, Pryor at welter wouldn't beat Floyd Mayweather, Sr. I don't know if Pryor could cope with Randy Shields. Maybe he would've beaten them, but, it would be a big test for Pryor.

I know that in my view, it's established that I don't see Pryor beating these guys at welter:
Sugar Ray Leonard
Roberto Duran
Thomas Hearns
Wilfred Benitez
Andy Price
Pipino Cuevas
Carlos Palomino
Floyd Mayweather, Sr.
Donald Curry
Milton McCrory
Felix "Tito" Trinidad
Emile Griffith
Luis Manuel Rodriguez
Gaspar Ortega
Florentino Fernandez
Kid Gavilan
Carmen Basilio

[Ambling Alp II]

Thought Cuevas had already reached his prime since he was just a month away from winning the title against the legendary Angel Espada. Would be interesting to know when Cuevas was in his prime. Someone I imagine it will work out so hardly any of his losses will count against him.

Nice list. Good to see Andy Price list along with these other guys despite getting knocked out by Leonard in the first round.

Interesting that so many of the guys on the list did very well when they moved up in weight. It's almost like it's not that big of a deal.....

[palooka]

English ex pro Peter Richardson represented Young England and England as an amateur every weight Flyweight to Light Welter even beating Vernon Forrest. Some boxers cope well with growing maturity and body size and some are effective and strong only at a single weight. It was well known from being an amateur that Ricky Hatton was a very strong and effective light welter, up at welter though his advantages were dulled and he was not as good a fighter.

[Ambling Alp II]

Many fighters are not as "effective" simply because the weight class that they moved up to them is better (at the time) than the weight class that they were in.
Most fighters are not going to naturally be the same weight when they start their career as they are several years later.

[palooka]

You've a point, Alp but it was noted that Hatton, even as an amateur was better at light welter than he was with the extra weight on him.

[elmersalsa]

So according to Alp, the great Sugar Ray Leonard:
1. Be dominant at 154lbs and beyond, even with Julian Jackson and the greats Mike McCallum and Thomas Hearns around.
2. According to Alp, Every fighter can do it. When I see the history of boxing, it's the opposite
3. Alp wants to make THE IMPOSSIBLE, THE POSSIBLE

[elmersalsa]

Thought Cuevas had already reached his prime since he was just a month away from winning the title against the legendary Angel Espada. Would be interesting to know when Cuevas was in his prime. Someone I imagine it will work out so hardly any of his losses will count against him.

Nice list. Good to see Andy Price list along with these other guys despite getting knocked out by Leonard in the first round.

Interesting that so many of the guys on the list did very well when they moved up in weight. It's almost like it's not that big of a deal.....

Some of them won other titles going up, but, did not dominate like their former class

[Ambling Alp II]

So according to Alp, the great Sugar Ray Leonard:
1. Be dominant at 154lbs and beyond, even with Julian Jackson and the greats Mike McCallum and Thomas Hearns around.
2. According to Alp, Every fighter can do it. When I see the history of boxing, it's the opposite
3. Alp wants to make THE IMPOSSIBLE, THE POSSIBLE

Stupid post.

1. Do I think could have been great at 154? Sure. He won the 160 title after being off for a very long. 154 without a layoff? No reason to think it would be a problem at all. Yes, I think he would have beat McCallum and Hearns. Jackson? Give me a frikkin break.
2. Every fighter? The opposite of every fighter in hisotry fighter doing it means none could do it. So another stupid elmer.
3. Doesn't even make sense.

As I have said countless times in countless ways, most fighters grow physiically from the time they start their career. The vast majority. If they try to move up in weight, they often can be about as good as they were in their original weight class. Some aren't quite as good, but close. Some are even better.

You like to use the word dominant. Sometimes a fighter is "dominant" in a weight class at least partially because his competition in that weight class is not that good. The weight class right above him might happen to be better than it was at the lower weight at that particular time.

There are many, many examples of fighters doing well moving up, especially in the lower weight classes where the difference in weight classes is smaller.

[elmersalsa]

So according to Alp, the great Sugar Ray Leonard:
1. Be dominant at 154lbs and beyond, even with Julian Jackson and the greats Mike McCallum and Thomas Hearns around.
2. According to Alp, Every fighter can do it. When I see the history of boxing, it's the opposite
3. Alp wants to make THE IMPOSSIBLE, THE POSSIBLE

Stupid post.

1. Do I think could have been great at 154? Sure. He won the 160 title after being off for a very long. 154 without a layoff? No reason to think it would be a problem at all. Yes, I think he would have beat McCallum and Hearns. Jackson? Give me a frikkin break.
2. Every fighter? The opposite of every fighter in hisotry fighter doing it means none could do it. So another stupid elmer.
3. Doesn't even make sense.

As I have said countless times in countless ways, most fighters grow physiically from the time they start their career. The vast majority. If they try to move up in weight, they often can be about as good as they were in their original weight class. Some aren't quite as good, but close. Some are even better.

You like to use the word dominant. Sometimes a fighter is "dominant" in a weight class at least partially because his competition in that weight class is not that good. The weight class right above him might happen to be better than it was at the lower weight at that particular time.

There are many, many examples of fighters doing well moving up, especially in the lower weight classes where the difference in weight classes is smaller.

Now THIS IS A STUPID POST!

You got to be DELUSIONAL!

There is no way in hell, that as much I like the great Sugar Ray Leonard, I can't see him beat a DEVASTATING PUNCHER or may I say A DEVASTATING KNOCKOUT ARTIST like Julian "The Hawk" Jackson. He might beat the other Hawk from Cincinnati, but Jackson? Are you realistic or delusional? ONE SHOT by Jackson and the fight is over. Have you seen what Jackson did to Herol Graham and Terry Norris? Be realistic, man. Be realistic.

Most champions cannot dominate the next class. Not because of better talent. It's because the top dogs in the next class are bigger and as good as the champ coming up. There are TOO MANY EXAMPLES to name. Going up in weight is one of the MOST DIFFICULT THINGS TO DO IN BOXING. YOU GOT TO LOSE SOMETHING. Whether be SPEED or POWER or REFLEXES. You lose something. That is realistic.

Sugar Ray struggled to beat a third class champ like Ayub Kalule. Do you think the greats Thomas Hearns and Mike McCallum would struggle with a fighter like that? They would've got rid of Kalule as quick as possible.

The bigger the weight, the better for Hearns and McCallum. They would give at 154lbs to Sugar Ray a NASTY KNOCKOUT! Leonard was not as good at 154lbs. Kevin Howard embarrassed him. Terry Norris smacked him around silly. And now, he will beat The Hawk? I see Ray looking for his retina all over the ring. A NASTY KNOCKOUT. OMG! Just thinking about it troubles me.

[BoxBuzz]

Not sure anyone is being stupid....but there are some things being stated that are at least hard to digest.


So...just to be clear....Sugar Ray can fight Marvin Hagler to a draw or close win/loss (being kind to all sides here) But has no chance with Julian Jackson?

Even if you want to factor in styles, (Which I"m not sure works against Ray here) How does that become a flat assumption?

The idea that Ray trumps Jackson with a decision...or even a KO....does not seem all that impossible.

Hagler was surely a more formidable opponent....and Ray seemed to be up to that task.

I think it would be easier for him to manage Jackson than Hagler despite the chance that Jackson COULD hit a home run.