Aaron Pryor & Sugar Ray Leonard

[ClivePatrickLyons]

elmersalsa your not with it are you Jackson ko Leonard you dreamer that is one of your dumbest things you have come up with you are
bored and sleepy that's why all the silly post :P

[elmersalsa]

Not sure anyone is being stupid....but there are some things being stated that are at least hard to digest.


So...just to be clear....Sugar Ray can fight Marvin Hagler to a draw or close win/loss (being kind to all sides here) But has no chance with Julian Jackson?

Even if you want to factor in styles, (Which I"m not sure works against Ray here) How does that become a flat assumption?

The idea that Ray trumps Jackson with a decision...or even a KO....does not seem all that impossible.

Hagler was surely a more formidable opponent....and Ray seemed to be up to that task.

I think it would be easier for him to manage Jackson than Hagler despite the chance that Jackson COULD hit a home run.

Everybody knows that that was not the great Marvelous of the early 80s. Sugar Ray had to wait on the greats Roberto Duran and The Hitman to challenge Marvelous.
Why Leonard didn't step up to the plate in '82 or '83? Oh, retina issues, right? Give me a break!

I see a NASTY KNOCKOUT WIN by The Hawk. That guy HIT TOO DAMN HARD!

[Ambling Alp II]

Oh please. You got to be the only person outside of Jackson's immediate family who thinks he would have beaten Leonard.
Leonard had not fought in what 27 months when he went against Howard. He still dominated the fight outside of a knockdown.
Leonard could fight at 154. He beat top 10 contenders at 154 before he even won the title at 147. In case you forgot, even while welterweight champion, he took won the title at 154. He was great at 147, beat Hagler at 160 but he would have been not have been good at 154? As usual, you make no sense.

I think my favorite part about all of this regards Thomas Hearns. You say over and over that a fighter is not as good when he moves up in weight. Yet you say that Hearns was so awesome at 154. Guess what? Hearns fought at 147 and moved up to 154. Your own theory says he could not have done this. Can you really not figure this out?

[elmersalsa]

Oh please. You got to be the only person outside of Jackson's immediate family who thinks he would have beaten Leonard.
Leonard had not fought in what 27 months when he went against Howard. He still dominated the fight outside of a knockdown.
Leonard could fight at 154. He beat top 10 contenders at 154 before he even won the title at 147. In case you forgot, even while welterweight champion, he took won the title at 154. He was great at 147, beat Hagler at 160 but he would have been not have been good at 154? As usual, you make no sense.

I think my favorite part about all of this regards Thomas Hearns. You say over and over that a fighter is not as good when he moves up in weight. Yet you say that Hearns was so awesome at 154. Guess what? Hearns fought at 147 and moved up to 154. Your own theory says he could not have done this. Can you really not figure this out?

This is WHERE YOU ARE LOSING THE POINT.
First, as much as I like Leonard and Duran, there is no way in hell in my freaking mind, that both could beat not only a natural and strong Jr middleweight, like The Hawk Jackson, but a DEVASTATING KO ARTIST like him. Both of them do not had the power nor the speed at 154lbs to cope with someone like that. If they were to fight back in the 80s, I see not just a KO, BUT A NASTY AND DEVASTATING STOPPAGE. That Jackson hit TOO DAMN HARD. Have you seen what he did to Terry Norris and Herol Graham? Two natural fighters at their weight? Jackson blasted them and the referee counted 'til 1,000. Now imagine someone smaller like Leonard?

It makes me laugh some guys in this forum that believe that Sugar Ray can do anything wherever weight class he goes. Even if he goes to light-heavyweight, he could still beat devastating punchers like Matthew Saad Muhammad and Dwight Muhammad Qawi in their minds. THEY ARE NOT BEING REALISTIC.

Thomas Hearns at 154lbs was at his weight. No matter how good Benitez, Duran or Sugar Ray be, THEY WOULD NOT BEAT THE HITMAN at that weight. It was A PERFECT WEIGHT FOR HEARNS

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't doubt in "your mind" that you can't imagine Leonard beating Jackson. Leonard could simply outbox Jackson. On the other hand, what happens when glassjaw Jackson gets hit ? He goes down. When Leonard got hit by Hearns at 147, what happened? Nothing. When Leonard fought Hagler at 160, did he get flattened? No. If he can be great at 147, be great at 160 after a three year layoff, common sense should tell you that he would have been great at 154. Use your brain for once.

Have never heard anyone say that Leonard would beat Saad Muhammad or Qawi. Another one of your mindless tangents.

How can Hearns' best weight be at 154? You yourself have said over and over that a fighter is not as good when he moves up in weight. So either Hearns can was not that good at 154 or a fighter can be just as good or better when moving up in weight. You can't have it both ways.
So which is it?

I already asked this before and didn't get an answer. Answer this time.

[elmersalsa]

Oh please. You got to be the only person outside of Jackson's immediate family who thinks he would have beaten Leonard.
Leonard had not fought in what 27 months when he went against Howard. He still dominated the fight outside of a knockdown.
Leonard could fight at 154. He beat top 10 contenders at 154 before he even won the title at 147. In case you forgot, even while welterweight champion, he took won the title at 154. He was great at 147, beat Hagler at 160 but he would have been not have been good at 154? As usual, you make no sense.

I think my favorite part about all of this regards Thomas Hearns. You say over and over that a fighter is not as good when he moves up in weight. Yet you say that Hearns was so awesome at 154. Guess what? Hearns fought at 147 and moved up to 154. Your own theory says he could not have done this. Can you really not figure this out?

First, I said that the majority of champs cannot dominate another class like their former one. That's what I have said. The great Thomas Hearns didn't cleaned up the welters. Sugar Ray did.

Second, Tommy at 154lbs was not only a good weight for him, but a PERFECT ONE. He was a freaking monster. This guy at 154lbs looked like a light-heavyweight compared to the other 154 pounders. Do you forgot what he did to the great Roberto Duran at 154lbs? Do you forgot what The Hitman did to Fred Hutchins? How could Leonard survive that devastating barrage? He would be too devastating for Sugar Ray at this weight and beyond. THE BIGGER THE WEIGHT, THE BETTER FOR HEARNS. He would ELIMINATE Sugar Ray....QUICK!

Third, Leonard STRUGGLED BIG TIME at 154lbs, even in his prime. Let's look back at the fights:
vs Marcos Geraldo: Leonard won by decision. Did we forgot that at one time in the fight, Geraldo put him in QUEER STREET? Do you believe that Julian Jackson would be in queer street with that guy? Oh, wait a minute! This same Geraldo was quickly dispatched by Tommy Hearns! Did we forgot that?
vs Kevin Howard: Sugar Ray is dancing around and he got EMBARRASSED by a knockdown to a third-rated fighter. Put Hearns, or Mike McCallum or Julian in that same ring, same night AND IT WOULD'VE BEEN A DISASTER! Leonard would've get KTFO!
vs Ayub Kalule: That guy with Jackson, Hearns nor McCallum has a chance. How could he? Do you think McCallum or Hearns or Jackson struggle with a fighter like that? READ THIS: I DON'T THINK SO!
vs Terry Norris: Nuff said. Norris smacked him around all over the ring. Well, I admit, I admit, it was Leonard time to go.

Fourth, of all things said, Sugar Ray above 147lbs was not dominant. Most of his fights above 147 were MEDIOCRE. Hearns, Mike and The Hawk would've put him looking for the retina all over the ring.

It would be too much.

[palooka]

What weight did Leonard and Hearns meet for the second bout?

[elmersalsa]

What weight did Leonard and Hearns meet for the second bout?

In the second bout, they fought at 168lbs. But, both of them, especially the Hitman, was considered more over the hill than Sugar Ray. Sugar Ray fought because he thought Hearns was washed up. What happened? With all that washed up talk, he put Sugar Ray to eat dust twice. Didn't he?

[Ambling Alp II]

Oh please. You got to be the only person outside of Jackson's immediate family who thinks he would have beaten Leonard.
Leonard had not fought in what 27 months when he went against Howard. He still dominated the fight outside of a knockdown.
Leonard could fight at 154. He beat top 10 contenders at 154 before he even won the title at 147. In case you forgot, even while welterweight champion, he took won the title at 154. He was great at 147, beat Hagler at 160 but he would have been not have been good at 154? As usual, you make no sense.

I think my favorite part about all of this regards Thomas Hearns. You say over and over that a fighter is not as good when he moves up in weight. Yet you say that Hearns was so awesome at 154. Guess what? Hearns fought at 147 and moved up to 154. Your own theory says he could not have done this. Can you really not figure this out?

First, I said that the majority of champs cannot dominate another class like their former one. That's what I have said. The great Thomas Hearns didn't cleaned up the welters. Sugar Ray did.

Second, Tommy at 154lbs was not only a good weight for him, but a PERFECT ONE. He was a freaking monster. This guy at 154lbs looked like a light-heavyweight compared to the other 154 pounders. Do you forgot what he did to the great Roberto Duran at 154lbs? Do you forgot what The Hitman did to Fred Hutchins? How could Leonard survive that devastating barrage? He would be too devastating for Sugar Ray at this weight and beyond. THE BIGGER THE WEIGHT, THE BETTER FOR HEARNS. He would ELIMINATE Sugar Ray....QUICK!

Third, Leonard STRUGGLED BIG TIME at 154lbs, even in his prime. Let's look back at the fights:
vs Marcos Geraldo: Leonard won by decision. Did we forgot that at one time in the fight, Geraldo put him in QUEER STREET? Do you believe that Julian Jackson would be in queer street with that guy? Oh, wait a minute! This same Geraldo was quickly dispatched by Tommy Hearns! Did we forgot that?
vs Kevin Howard: Sugar Ray is dancing around and he got EMBARRASSED by a knockdown to a third-rated fighter. Put Hearns, or Mike McCallum or Julian in that same ring, same night AND IT WOULD'VE BEEN A DISASTER! Leonard would've get KTFO!
vs Ayub Kalule: That guy with Jackson, Hearns nor McCallum has a chance. How could he? Do you think McCallum or Hearns or Jackson struggle with a fighter like that? READ THIS: I DON'T THINK SO!
vs Terry Norris: Nuff said. Norris smacked him around all over the ring. Well, I admit, I admit, it was Leonard time to go.

Fourth, of all things said, Sugar Ray above 147lbs was not dominant. Most of his fights above 147 were MEDIOCRE. Hearns, Mike and The Hawk would've put him looking for the retina all over the ring.

It would be too much.

1. No, Hearns did not dominate the welters. By your own theory, he should have been worse at 154. You said a fighter loses speed etc. Now you are flipflopping.
2. Now it's THE BIGGER THE WEIGHT, THE BETTER FOR HEARNS? Are you figgin kidding me? Completely goes against your theory about fighters moving up in weight.
Not to mention it;'s not true at all.

3. Marcus Geraldo? Leonard was still getting better at this stage in his career. Besides Geraldo was a very inconsistent fighter. He gave Hagler a tough fight and got knocked out by Caveman Lee in the first round. I guess you don't think Hagler would last long against Lee or Hearns for that matter. How did those fights turn out. .


Kevin Howard? You really counting this fight? 27 months out of the ring? He got knocked down. He won the fight easily. It happens. Did Hearns or Jackson ever get knocked down? Yes I believe that anyone that could punch at all could hurt Jackson or Hearns if they nailed either with a good shot.
Ayub Kalue? Not a great fighter but a good one. Leonard beat him convincingly. Very good performance by Leonard at 154.

4. The fights Leonard had at 154 were when he was clearly past his prime. Of course he was not that great against Terry Norris. Stop bring up these fights. I'm talking about Leonard in his prime.

Hearns-Leonard II. Using your own theory of Hearns being better the heavier the weight, then why could he not simply blow him away in this fight?
(Btw-the first knockdown was not a legitimate knockdown. It was a rabbit punch followed by a push.)

If Hearns was so much better at 154, how did he do against Benitez? Fight went 15 rounds, Hearns couldn't stop him. Benitez gave him a competitive fight. Guess what? Benitez was just (according to you) was just a Junior welterweight. Benitez should have been much easier to blow out than Leonard. Why couldn't Hearns just blow Benitez away?
Earnie Singletary went the distance with him. Mark Medal lasted 8 rounds. It's not like Hearns blew everyone away.


As usual, you don't know what you are talking about and you are now contradicting yourself.

[BoxBuzz]

I thnk the most assumptive outcome would be that Sugar Ray would just finish what Herol Graham almost pulled off.

Herol just forgot to duck. I imagine Ray would pull off the elusive aspect better than Herol. And probably a bit better at piling up the points.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

I don't doubt in "your mind" that you can't imagine Leonard beating Jackson. Leonard could simply outbox Jackson. On the other hand, what happens when glassjaw Jackson gets hit ? He goes down. When Leonard got hit by Hearns at 147, what happened? Nothing. When Leonard fought Hagler at 160, did he get flattened? No. If he can be great at 147, be great at 160 after a three year layoff, common sense should tell you that he would have been great at 154. Use your brain for once.

Have never heard anyone say that Leonard would beat Saad Muhammad or Qawi. Another one of your mindless tangents.

How can Hearns' best weight be at 154? You yourself have said over and over that a fighter is not as good when he moves up in weight. So either Hearns can was not that good at 154 or a fighter can be just as good or better when moving up in weight. You can't have it both ways.
So which is it?

I already asked this before and didn't get an answer. Answer this time.

COME ON elmersalsa BE A MAN JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION..........REMEMBER WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT FIGHTER'S MOVING UP IN WEIGHT
YOU HAVE BACKED YOUR SELF INTO A CORNER HAVEN'T YOU ANYWAY THAT DOESN'T MATTER JUST ANSWER THE QUSTION SET YOUR SELF
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[elmersalsa]

Oh please. You got to be the only person outside of Jackson's immediate family who thinks he would have beaten Leonard.
Leonard had not fought in what 27 months when he went against Howard. He still dominated the fight outside of a knockdown.
Leonard could fight at 154. He beat top 10 contenders at 154 before he even won the title at 147. In case you forgot, even while welterweight champion, he took won the title at 154. He was great at 147, beat Hagler at 160 but he would have been not have been good at 154? As usual, you make no sense.

I think my favorite part about all of this regards Thomas Hearns. You say over and over that a fighter is not as good when he moves up in weight. Yet you say that Hearns was so awesome at 154. Guess what? Hearns fought at 147 and moved up to 154. Your own theory says he could not have done this. Can you really not figure this out?

First, I said that the majority of champs cannot dominate another class like their former one. That's what I have said. The great Thomas Hearns didn't cleaned up the welters. Sugar Ray did.

Second, Tommy at 154lbs was not only a good weight for him, but a PERFECT ONE. He was a freaking monster. This guy at 154lbs looked like a light-heavyweight compared to the other 154 pounders. Do you forgot what he did to the great Roberto Duran at 154lbs? Do you forgot what The Hitman did to Fred Hutchins? How could Leonard survive that devastating barrage? He would be too devastating for Sugar Ray at this weight and beyond. THE BIGGER THE WEIGHT, THE BETTER FOR HEARNS. He would ELIMINATE Sugar Ray....QUICK!

Third, Leonard STRUGGLED BIG TIME at 154lbs, even in his prime. Let's look back at the fights:
vs Marcos Geraldo: Leonard won by decision. Did we forgot that at one time in the fight, Geraldo put him in QUEER STREET? Do you believe that Julian Jackson would be in queer street with that guy? Oh, wait a minute! This same Geraldo was quickly dispatched by Tommy Hearns! Did we forgot that?
vs Kevin Howard: Sugar Ray is dancing around and he got EMBARRASSED by a knockdown to a third-rated fighter. Put Hearns, or Mike McCallum or Julian in that same ring, same night AND IT WOULD'VE BEEN A DISASTER! Leonard would've get KTFO!
vs Ayub Kalule: That guy with Jackson, Hearns nor McCallum has a chance. How could he? Do you think McCallum or Hearns or Jackson struggle with a fighter like that? READ THIS: I DON'T THINK SO!
vs Terry Norris: Nuff said. Norris smacked him around all over the ring. Well, I admit, I admit, it was Leonard time to go.

Fourth, of all things said, Sugar Ray above 147lbs was not dominant. Most of his fights above 147 were MEDIOCRE. Hearns, Mike and The Hawk would've put him looking for the retina all over the ring.

It would be too much.[/quote]

1. No, Hearns did not dominate the welters. By your own theory, he should have been worse at 154. You said a fighter loses speed etc. Now you are flipflopping.
2. Now it's THE BIGGER THE WEIGHT, THE BETTER FOR HEARNS? Are you figgin kidding me? Completely goes against your theory about fighters moving up in weight.
Not to mention it;'s not true at all.

3. Marcus Geraldo? Leonard was still getting better at this stage in his career. Besides Geraldo was a very inconsistent fighter. He gave Hagler a tough fight and got knocked out by Caveman Lee in the first round. I guess you don't think Hagler would last long against Lee or Hearns for that matter. How did those fights turn out. .


Kevin Howard? You really counting this fight? 27 months out of the ring? He got knocked down. He won the fight easily. It happens. Did Hearns or Jackson ever get knocked down? Yes I believe that anyone that could punch at all could hurt Jackson or Hearns if they nailed either with a good shot.
Ayub Kalue? Not a great fighter but a good one. Leonard beat him convincingly. Very good performance by Leonard at 154.

4. The fights Leonard had at 154 were when he was clearly past his prime. Of course he was not that great against Terry Norris. Stop bring up these fights. I'm talking about Leonard in his prime.

Hearns-Leonard II. Using your own theory of Hearns being better the heavier the weight, then why could he not simply blow him away in this fight?
(Btw-the first knockdown was not a legitimate knockdown. It was a rabbit punch followed by a push.)

If Hearns was so much better at 154, how did he do against Benitez? Fight went 15 rounds, Hearns couldn't stop him. Benitez gave him a competitive fight. Guess what? Benitez was just (according to you) was just a Junior welterweight. Benitez should have been much easier to blow out than Leonard. Why couldn't Hearns just blow Benitez away?
Earnie Singletary went the distance with him. Mark Medal lasted 8 rounds. It's not like Hearns blew everyone away.


As usual, you don't know what you are talking about and you are now contradicting yourself.[/quote]

First of all, I am not contradicting myself. I have said once, and said it again, "The majority of champions that dominated their class cannot dominate other weight classes going up". And that's is A NORMAL LOGIC. Everybody that knows boxing, could see it. It's been a fact, it's been seen, and it is very REALISTIC.

A good or great small boxer, IN THE MAJORITY OF TIMES, loses to the great and bigger boxer. Am I saying something unusual here?

Now, if you want to rebottle the facts of the great Sugar Ray Leonard fighting at 154lbs, and what happened, fine. He looked most of the time, above welterweight, MEDIOCRE....THAT IS A FACT. NOT AN ILUSION.
Kevin Howard embarrassed Sugar Ray. Marcos Geraldo put him in queer street. Ayub Kalule gave him a struggle. That's. come to show that in that particular weight, Leonard has NO BUSINESS with The Hitman, the Body Snatcher nor the Hawk. They would have blown him away. Why? Because the simple rule in boxing: Bigger man beats little man.

Hearns vs Leonard going up in weight, was the better for Hearns. Am I right? Who looked better at 154lbs? Hearns or Leonard? If you say Leonard, then, I finish this conversation right now. I will live with my head on high. I am REALISTIC. You are UNREALISTIC. How could Sugar Ray win this fight? Well, he cannot outbox Tommy. He is not stronger than Tommy at this weight. He does not punch harder than Tommy. Tommy would be ALL WRONG for Ray above welterweight, especially in a weight class that was PERFECT for the Hitman.

Now, you made a BIG MISTAKE in bringing the Hearns vs Benitez fight. As I could recall, ain't Tommy broke his right hand in that fight? And with all that, HE DOMINATED WITH HIS JAB and did it much better than Leonard. Why? because the fight was at 154lbs, not at welter. That's is ANOTHER EXAMPLE of a big and great boxer beating a small great one.

I don't see Ray beating McCallum. McCallum was too strong and a complete fighter. Ray would not be able to hurt him

As for Julian Jackson? He must be the easiest of the three, and STILL, STILL, I can't envision a Sugar Ray win. This is like Gene Fullmer vs Benny "Kid" Paret, or Rubin "Hurricane" Carter vs Emile Griffith. It would be the same scenario of Cuevas vs Pryor. The same scenario. I don't see Leonard hurting him. He won't have the same speed like in welterweight. One shot by the Hawk, BOOM!, IT'S ALL OVER, THE WINNER BY A NASTY KNOCKOUT: Julian Jackson.

When I think of punchers in my lifetime watching boxers, there were many. But the ones that come to my mind are Jackson, Hearns, and the greats Mike Tyson and George Foreman. This guy Jackson can hit. He stopped 22 boxers in a row before getting stopped by McCallum. Then, he won 12 straight more by knockout. Boy, this guy can hit. Jackson by a devastating and nasty knockout. That's how I see it, folks.

[palooka]

Leonard was a very tough man and could box the angles well, if Jackson caught him flush he'd knock him into next week but he'd not catch him flush, Leonard on points.

[elmersalsa]

Leonard was a very tough man and could box the angles well, if Jackson caught him flush he'd knock him into next week but he'd not catch him flush, Leonard on points.

Well, anything is a possibility. If Sugar Ray beats this DEVASTATING KO ARTIST at 154lbs, I had to put him top 5 p4p ahead of the great Manos de Piedra. But, we're talking 154lbs. Leonard NEVER BEAT a great puncher above 147. If you want to put the Marvelous fight, remember, it wasn't 1982, but 1987...Too much happened for Marvelous in 5 years.

[Ambling Alp II]

elmer, elmer. Now you are trying to dance around the moving up in weight is such a big deal by using the phrase "dominate" Of course by doing this, you can always claim a fighter didn't "dominate" a weight class in your mind.
Many times in the past you have said that a fighter just is not as good when he moves up in weigh without using the word dominate. Just on this thread you said"Going up in weight is a BIG DIFFERENCE for any fighter below the heavyweights. Especially, if you have to fight someone as good as you and you are just coming into his weight class. You're not accustomed to the weight. " You didn't use the word "dominate".

No the bigger Hearns is, the better you say. Really? That mean Hearns was better at 160 then 154. Does anyone believe that. That he was better as a cruiserweight than at 154 or 147? Come on.

You are cornered and you know it. You can't have it both ways. You can't go on and on about how a fighter isn't as effective moving up in weight and then say the opposite with Hearns and have credibility.

Hearns didn't hurt his hand until the 8th against Benitez. Surely Hearns should have been able to blow out a little junior welterweight like Benitez out before than, shouldn't he?
As for Leonard at 154: You are showing how unbelievably biased you are:

You claim Duran's win over frikkin Ray Lampkin was a good win. That was a tough fight that lasted 14 rounds. Unlike Kalue, Lampkin beat nobody worth mentioning.
You like Frazier so he "whupped" Ali. You had Frazier winning by just 4 points.
You like Duran so he "whupped" Leonard. You had Duran winning by just 3 points.
Yet, since you don't like Leonard, you claim that he "struggled against Kalue". He won almost every round and knocked him out in the 9th. Yet you call it a "struggle".

You like Pedroza, so he was "green" when lost to Zamora.
Yet you mock Leonard against Geraldo, when Leonard had been a pro for just two years when Leonard beat him. Leonard (a welterweight) weighs in at 153 and beats a middleweight and you criticize him for it. Did it ever occur to you that Leonard was "green" when he beat Geraldo"?

You have every excuse in the book for all but one of Duran's losses, all but one of Cuevas' losses, and all of Frazier's losses.
Yet with Leonard, you keep bringing up fights with Norris and Howard in which you know nowhere near the fighter he was at one time. You never do that with guys that you like.

Leonard only had one fight at 154 in his prime. That was the convincing win over Kalue. His only other fight before that against a Jr Middleweight was against Tony Chiaverini before Leonard won the welterweight tile. Chiaverini was ranked in the top 10. Leonard stopped him in 4 rounds.

With almost every post elmer, you lose credibility. Go ahead, spin it. You are completely biased.

[elmersalsa]

elmer, elmer. Now you are trying to dance around the moving up in weight is such a big deal by using the phrase "dominate" Of course by doing this, you can always claim a fighter didn't "dominate" a weight class in your mind.
Many times in the past you have said that a fighter just is not as good when he moves up in weigh without using the word dominate. Just on this thread you said"Going up in weight is a BIG DIFFERENCE for any fighter below the heavyweights. Especially, if you have to fight someone as good as you and you are just coming into his weight class. You're not accustomed to the weight. " You didn't use the word "dominate".

No the bigger Hearns is, the better you say. Really? That mean Hearns was better at 160 then 154. Does anyone believe that. That he was better as a cruiserweight than at 154 or 147? Come on.

You are cornered and you know it. You can't have it both ways. You can't go on and on about how a fighter isn't as effective moving up in weight and then say the opposite with Hearns and have credibility.

Hearns didn't hurt his hand until the 8th against Benitez. Surely Hearns should have been able to blow out a little junior welterweight like Benitez out before than, shouldn't he?
As for Leonard at 154: You are showing how unbelievably biased you are:

You claim Duran's win over frikkin Ray Lampkin was a good win. That was a tough fight that lasted 14 rounds. Unlike Kalue, Lampkin beat nobody worth mentioning.
You like Frazier so he "whupped" Ali. You had Frazier winning by just 4 points.
You like Duran so he "whupped" Leonard. You had Duran winning by just 3 points.
Yet, since you don't like Leonard, you claim that he "struggled against Kalue". He won almost every round and knocked him out in the 9th. Yet you call it a "struggle".

You like Pedroza, so he was "green" when lost to Zamora.
Yet you mock Leonard against Geraldo, when Leonard had been a pro for just two years when Leonard beat him. Leonard (a welterweight) weighs in at 153 and beats a middleweight and you criticize him for it. Did it ever occur to you that Leonard was "green" when he beat Geraldo"?

You have every excuse in the book for all but one of Duran's losses, all but one of Cuevas' losses, and all of Frazier's losses.
Yet with Leonard, you keep bringing up fights with Norris and Howard in which you know nowhere near the fighter he was at one time. You never do that with guys that you like.

Leonard only had one fight at 154 in his prime. That was the convincing win over Kalue. His only other fight before that against a Jr Middleweight was against Tony Chiaverini before Leonard won the welterweight tile. Chiaverini was ranked in the top 10. Leonard stopped him in 4 rounds.

With almost every post elmer, you lose credibility. Go ahead, spin it. You are completely biased.

No my friend, I am not biased. Biased means that I believe that the great Roberto Duran, who everybody in here knows, is my favorite fighter, beats THIS DEVASTATING PUNCHER like Julian Jackson. To me, a Duran win over The Hawk is UNREALISTIC, whether it be 154 or 160lbs. I could picture it right now,"Boom" fight is over. The weight is too much for Manos de Piedra to handle. The same would be for the great Sugar Ray Leonard. I like Sugar Ray. He is one of my favorites, but, I am realistic with him on this match. Leonard at his very best STRUGGLED with Ayub Kalule. Why? Because IT IS NOT LEONARD'S WEIGHT CLASS.

ANYBODY can go from one weight to another and become champion. THE QUESTION is, can you DOMINATE like you did in your former class. Only, there were a few exceptions: Alexis Arguello, Roy Jones, Jr, Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, etc. Not even the great Sugar Ray Robinson dominated two classes. Not even he.

Talking about The Hitman, I was referring him to a comparison going up in weight between he and Sugar Ray. Of course Tommy will absorb the weight much better than Ray going up. He is three or four inches taller than Ray. He's going to be better suited going up in weight than Leonard.

Well, THIS IS ONE OF THE RULES IN BOXING THAT WE CANNOT IGNORE FOLKS. NO MATTER HOW WE LOOK AT IT.

Ask the posters if I am losing credibility, Alp. Ain't this rule a TRUE ONE?

[Ambling Alp II]

You are incredibly biased and I have given several examples of this.
You like Leonard? I believe that is a straight out lie. You rip him constantly for the past several years. You have gone as far as saying that he is not a "real fighter". You would not have said that if you liked him.

Leonard didn't struggle against Kalue. Why? He won almost every round and knocked him out in the 9th. Compared to the first Duran-Leonard fight and the first Frazier-Ali fight, it was an absolute ass kicking.

You are now using the word "dominant". Yet you don't say what that actually means to you. That way you can use it any time that it favors one the fighters that you like.

I can give more than a 100 examples of fighter being about as good or better he moves up in weight as the previous weight. Not talking about winning a title in a bigger weight class. Actually being about as good or better as the higher weight class.That is what counts. Not your BS about being "dominant".

The fact is there is only have two fights with Leonard at 154 that are relevant at all. The Chiaverni fight and the Kalue fight. He won both easily.
Commonsense should tell you that he would have been really good at 154. He would have fought at that weight around 1983-1985 if it was not for the eye problems. No reason at all to think he would not have been great at that weight as well.

I don't speak gibberish, so I don't know what rule you are referring to. I guess it would be the "elmer makes things up as he goes along rule".

[ClivePatrickLyons]

elmersalsa well Duran fought bigger and better fighter's than Jackson don't you think remember Hagler/Barkley was he ko'd and don't try tell me
that these two weren't better than Jackson ability wise and before you start to twist anything and count how many ko's they have on their record's
by the way how many losse's Jackson have I think it was 6 losse's ALL BY KNOCKOUT and Leonard couldn't out box him :?? u kidding
get out of that corner whats wrong with you stop making people laugh at you and your clueless theorie's that are STUPID
PRYOR WOULD HAVE KO'D CUEVAS AT JR WELTER OR WELTER JUST IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW AND THATS A BIG POSSABILITY THAT YOU DON'T
PRYOR HAD ONE OF THE BEST KO PERCENTAGE'S IN BOXING HAVE A GOOGLE

[palooka]

Leonard was a very tough man and could box the angles well, if Jackson caught him flush he'd knock him into next week but he'd not catch him flush, Leonard on points.

Well, anything is a possibility. If Sugar Ray beats this DEVASTATING KO ARTIST at 154lbs, I had to put him top 5 p4p ahead of the great Manos de Piedra. But, we're talking 154lbs. Leonard NEVER BEAT a great puncher above 147. If you want to put the Marvelous fight, remember, it wasn't 1982, but 1987...Too much happened for Marvelous in 5 years.

LaLonde was a good hitter though at light heavy, Leonard too a good hit and would come back in kind.

[elmersalsa]

You are incredibly biased and I have given several examples of this.
You like Leonard? I believe that is a straight out lie. You rip him constantly for the past several years. You have gone as far as saying that he is not a "real fighter". You would not have said that if you liked him.

Leonard didn't struggle against Kalue. Why? He won almost every round and knocked him out in the 9th. Compared to the first Duran-Leonard fight and the first Frazier-Ali fight, it was an absolute ass kicking.

You are now using the word "dominant". Yet you don't say what that actually means to you. That way you can use it any time that it favors one the fighters that you like.

I can give more than a 100 examples of fighter being about as good or better he moves up in weight as the previous weight. Not talking about winning a title in a bigger weight class. Actually being about as good or better as the higher weight class.That is what counts. Not your BS about being "dominant".

The fact is there is only have two fights with Leonard at 154 that are relevant at all. The Chiaverni fight and the Kalue fight. He won both easily.
Commonsense should tell you that he would have been really good at 154. He would have fought at that weight around 1983-1985 if it was not for the eye problems. No reason at all to think he would not have been great at that weight as well.

I don't speak gibberish, so I don't know what rule you are referring to. I guess it would be the "elmer makes things up as he goes along rule".

I saw the Ayub Kalule fight, and Sugar Ray did not dominate. As a matter of fact, as I can recall back in the days, the American media, CRITICIZED HIM. I don't know what fight you was watching. Maybe both us need glasses.

I like Sugar Ray. He, Ali and Duran are my favorite fighters. Along with Bobby Chacon, Eusebio Pedroza, Mike Tyson (when he just kick your ass and didn't talk much), James Toney and Julio Cesar Chavez. But, I got to be REALISTIC. The Jr middleweight or super welterweight class was NOT A GOOD CLASS FOR HIM. And it showed. The class was PERFECT for the Hitman. Not for Ray. A fight at 154lbs I HAVE TO PUT MY MONEY ON TOMMY. THAT IS LOGICAL.

As I have said before, at welterweight, Leonard beats Henry Armstrong and Sugar Ray Robinson or any other welterweight that is not the great Roberto Duran in Montreal.

But above welterweight? Robinson beats ANY VERSION OF LEONARD ANY DAY OF THE WEEK AND TWICE ON SUNDAY.

Why? Because the weight class above WOULD BE BETTER FOR ROBINSON.

It's all about WEIGHT CLASSIFICATIONS, folks. I don't believe that crap of "Styles Makes Fights" nonsense.

You cannot come up with 100 examples of champions dominating another weight class like his former one. THAT IS A RULE IN BOXING. Most fighters can't do it.

At welterweight??? Leonard was FANTASTIC. Above that weight class?.....Most of his fights were MEDIOCRE. There is no indication that I saw him doing better above welterweight. None!

[elmersalsa]

Leonard was a very tough man and could box the angles well, if Jackson caught him flush he'd knock him into next week but he'd not catch him flush, Leonard on points.

Well, anything is a possibility. If Sugar Ray beats this DEVASTATING KO ARTIST at 154lbs, I had to put him top 5 p4p ahead of the great Manos de Piedra. But, we're talking 154lbs. Leonard NEVER BEAT a great puncher above 147. If you want to put the Marvelous fight, remember, it wasn't 1982, but 1987...Too much happened for Marvelous in 5 years.

LaLonde was a good hitter though at light heavy, Leonard too a good hit and would come back in kind.

Donny Lalonde was not Julian Jackson.

[elmersalsa]

elmersalsa well Duran fought bigger and better fighter's than Jackson don't you think remember Hagler/Barkley was he ko'd and don't try tell me
that these two weren't better than Jackson ability wise and before you start to twist anything and count how many ko's they have on their record's
by the way how many losse's Jackson have I think it was 6 losse's ALL BY KNOCKOUT and Leonard couldn't out box him :?? u kidding
get out of that corner whats wrong with you stop making people laugh at you and your clueless theorie's that are STUPID
PRYOR WOULD HAVE KO'D CUEVAS AT JR WELTER OR WELTER JUST IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW AND THATS A BIG POSSABILITY THAT YOU DON'T
PRYOR HAD ONE OF THE BEST KO PERCENTAGE'S IN BOXING HAVE A GOOGLE

Jackson vs Leonard is not a good fight for Sugar Ray.

[palooka]

Well, anything is a possibility. If Sugar Ray beats this DEVASTATING KO ARTIST at 154lbs, I had to put him top 5 p4p ahead of the great Manos de Piedra. But, we're talking 154lbs. Leonard NEVER BEAT a great puncher above 147. If you want to put the Marvelous fight, remember, it wasn't 1982, but 1987...Too much happened for Marvelous in 5 years.[/quote]

LaLonde was a good hitter though at light heavy, Leonard too a good hit and would come back in kind.[/quote]

Donny Lalonde was not Julian Jackson.[/quote]

A good toupee and he might pass.

[Ambling Alp II]

You are incredibly biased and I have given several examples of this.
You like Leonard? I believe that is a straight out lie. You rip him constantly for the past several years. You have gone as far as saying that he is not a "real fighter". You would not have said that if you liked him.

Leonard didn't struggle against Kalue. Why? He won almost every round and knocked him out in the 9th. Compared to the first Duran-Leonard fight and the first Frazier-Ali fight, it was an absolute ass kicking.

You are now using the word "dominant". Yet you don't say what that actually means to you. That way you can use it any time that it favors one the fighters that you like.

I can give more than a 100 examples of fighter being about as good or better he moves up in weight as the previous weight. Not talking about winning a title in a bigger weight class. Actually being about as good or better as the higher weight class.That is what counts. Not your BS about being "dominant".

The fact is there is only have two fights with Leonard at 154 that are relevant at all. The Chiaverni fight and the Kalue fight. He won both easily.
Commonsense should tell you that he would have been really good at 154. He would have fought at that weight around 1983-1985 if it was not for the eye problems. No reason at all to think he would not have been great at that weight as well.

I don't speak gibberish, so I don't know what rule you are referring to. I guess it would be the "elmer makes things up as he goes along rule".

I saw the Ayub Kalule fight, and Sugar Ray did not dominate. As a matter of fact, as I can recall back in the days, the American media, CRITICIZED HIM. I don't know what fight you was watching. Maybe both us need glasses.

I like Sugar Ray. He, Ali and Duran are my favorite fighters. Along with Bobby Chacon, Eusebio Pedroza, Mike Tyson (when he just kick your ass and didn't talk much), James Toney and Julio Cesar Chavez. But, I got to be REALISTIC. The Jr middleweight or super welterweight class was NOT A GOOD CLASS FOR HIM. And it showed. The class was PERFECT for the Hitman. Not for Ray. A fight at 154lbs I HAVE TO PUT MY MONEY ON TOMMY. THAT IS LOGICAL.

As I have said before, at welterweight, Leonard beats Henry Armstrong and Sugar Ray Robinson or any other welterweight that is not the great Roberto Duran in Montreal.

But above welterweight? Robinson beats ANY VERSION OF LEONARD ANY DAY OF THE WEEK AND TWICE ON SUNDAY.

Why? Because the weight class above WOULD BE BETTER FOR ROBINSON.

It's all about WEIGHT CLASSIFICATIONS, folks. I don't believe that crap of "Styles Makes Fights" nonsense.

You cannot come up with 100 examples of champions dominating another weight class like his former one. THAT IS A RULE IN BOXING. Most fighters can't do it.

At welterweight??? Leonard was FANTASTIC. Above that weight class?.....Most of his fights were MEDIOCRE. There is no indication that I saw him doing better above welterweight. None!

You are lying through your teeth about being a Leonard fan and we have discussed the rest before, so I am just going to focus on about the following:

-I can come up with 100 cases of a fighter moving up in weight and being about as good or better in the higher weight class. Would be happy to do so.

-elmer, you said that Alexis Arguello, Roy Jones, Jr, Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, etc. dominated more than one weight class. I would like you to explain what "dominating a weight class" means in your own words.

[elmersalsa]

Ambling Alp. You know and I know and everybody in this forum knows what I am talking about champions not dominating other weight classes like their former ones.

Here are some examples:
1. The great Wilfredo Gomez, a COMPLETE FIGHTER and fantastic puncher, dominated the super bantamweight class. Nobody, or almost nobody survived his wrath. He beat almost every top notch contender and champion there was for 6 years with 17 title defenses, all by knockout. An all time record. He was the top dog. What happened when he went up to 126? The great Salvador Sanchez gave him the thrashing beating of his life. We all know that. Gomez above his natural weight was never dominant, even though he won 2 more titles. He was never the same after "The Battle of the Little Giants".

2. The great Bob Foster destroyed the majority of the light-heavyweights in his reign. We all know that. But, when he tried the BIG DOGS of the heavyweights, he got whupped. Five of his 8 losses were against heavyweight boxers.

3. The great Roberto Duran decimated and cleaned up the lightweights. Above lightweight, he lost most of his fights.

4. The great Sugar Ray Robinson never lost at welterweight over more than 80 fights there. What happened when he went to 160? Did he dominate? No. He lost 18 times at 160 and one time at 175lbs.

5. The great Sugar Ray Leonard cleaned up the welters. He beat almost every top welterweight and champion there was at 147. What happened to him going up in weight? Did he dominated like in 147? No. He didn't had the longevity to begin with. His fights above welterweight were MEDIOCRE for the most part.
6. The great Terry McGovern for the most part, was a beast bantamweight. Nobody could beat him there. He had to move up. What happened? He got cracked twice by Young Corbett.

It's not easy to dominate another class above you because THE GUYS THERE ARE STRONGER, FASTER, BIGGER and in many cases as good and talented as you. It's not about talent. It's the weight, the weight.