Aaron Pryor & Sugar Ray Leonard

[Tomasino]

Ambling Alp. You know and I know and everybody in this forum knows what I am talking about champions not dominating other weight classes like their former ones.

Here are some examples:
1. The great Wilfredo Gomez, a COMPLETE FIGHTER and fantastic puncher, dominated the super bantamweight class. Nobody, or almost nobody survived his wrath. He beat almost every top notch contender and champion there was for 6 years with 17 title defenses, all by knockout. An all time record. He was the top dog. What happened when he went up to 126? The great Salvador Sanchez gave him the thrashing beating of his life. We all know that. Gomez above his natural weight was never dominant, even though he won 2 more titles. He was never the same after "The Battle of the Little Giants".

2. The great Bob Foster destroyed the majority of the light-heavyweights in his reign. We all know that. But, when he tried the BIG DOGS of the heavyweights, he got whupped. Five of his 8 losses were against heavyweight boxers.

3. The great Roberto Duran decimated and cleaned up the lightweights. Above lightweight, he lost most of his fights.

4. The great Sugar Ray Robinson never lost at welterweight over more than 80 fights there. What happened when he went to 160? Did he dominate? No. He lost 18 times at 160 and one time at 175lbs.

5. The great Sugar Ray Leonard cleaned up the welters. He beat almost every top welterweight and champion there was at 147. What happened to him going up in weight? Did he dominated like in 147? No. He didn't had the longevity to begin with. His fights above welterweight were MEDIOCRE for the most part.
6. The great Terry McGovern for the most part, was a beast bantamweight. Nobody could beat him there. He had to move up. What happened? He got cracked twice by Young Corbett.

It's not easy to dominate another class above you because THE GUYS THERE ARE STRONGER, FASTER, BIGGER and in many cases as good and talented as you. It's not about talent. It's the weight, the weight.

People get faster higher up in weight?

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Ambling Alp. You know and I know and everybody in this forum knows what I am talking about champions not dominating other weight classes like their former ones.

Here are some examples:
1. The great Wilfredo Gomez, a COMPLETE FIGHTER and fantastic puncher, dominated the super bantamweight class. Nobody, or almost nobody survived his wrath. He beat almost every top notch contender and champion there was for 6 years with 17 title defenses, all by knockout. An all time record. He was the top dog. What happened when he went up to 126? The great Salvador Sanchez gave him the thrashing beating of his life. We all know that. Gomez above his natural weight was never dominant, even though he won 2 more titles. He was never the same after "The Battle of the Little Giants".

2. The great Bob Foster destroyed the majority of the light-heavyweights in his reign. We all know that. But, when he tried the BIG DOGS of the heavyweights, he got whupped. Five of his 8 losses were against heavyweight boxers.

3. The great Roberto Duran decimated and cleaned up the lightweights. Above lightweight, he lost most of his fights.

4. The great Sugar Ray Robinson never lost at welterweight over more than 80 fights there. What happened when he went to 160? Did he dominate? No. He lost 18 times at 160 and one time at 175lbs.

5. The great Sugar Ray Leonard cleaned up the welters. He beat almost every top welterweight and champion there was at 147. What happened to him going up in weight? Did he dominated like in 147? No. He didn't had the longevity to begin with. His fights above welterweight were MEDIOCRE for the most part.
6. The great Terry McGovern for the most part, was a beast bantamweight. Nobody could beat him there. He had to move up. What happened? He got cracked twice by Young Corbett.

It's not easy to dominate another class above you because THE GUYS THERE ARE STRONGER, FASTER, BIGGER and in many cases as good and talented as you. It's not about talent. It's the weight, the weight.

WELL CAN YOU LET THE CRUISERWEIGHT THAT KEEPS CHALLENGING THE JR MIDDLEWEIGHT KNOW

[ClivePatrickLyons]

elmersalsa well Duran fought bigger and better fighter's than Jackson don't you think remember Hagler/Barkley was he ko'd and don't try tell me
that these two weren't better than Jackson ability wise and before you start to twist anything and count how many ko's they have on their record's
by the way how many losse's Jackson have I think it was 6 losse's ALL BY KNOCKOUT and Leonard couldn't out box him :?? u kidding
get out of that corner whats wrong with you stop making people laugh at you and your clueless theorie's that are STUPID
PRYOR WOULD HAVE KO'D CUEVAS AT JR WELTER OR WELTER JUST IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW AND THATS A BIG POSSABILITY THAT YOU DON'T
PRYOR HAD ONE OF THE BEST KO PERCENTAGE'S IN BOXING HAVE A GOOGLE

Jackson vs Leonard is not a good fight for Sugar Ray.

NO IT WOULD BE A EASY FIGHT FOR HIM HE WOULD GET CRITISED FOR FIGHTING A SECOND RATER

[elmersalsa]

Yeah, he'll be criticized all right.

[Ambling Alp II]

elmer, You still have not answered the question I asked earlier. You said that Alexis Arguello, Roy Jones, Jr, Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, etc. dominated more than one weight class. I would like you to explain what "dominating a weight class" means in your own words.

Tomasino also asked why you think fighters in the higher weight classes are faster?

[elmersalsa]

elmer, You still have not answered the question I asked earlier. You said that Alexis Arguello, Roy Jones, Jr, Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, etc. dominated more than one weight class. I would like you to explain what "dominating a weight class" means in your own words.

Tomasino also asked why you think fighters in the higher weight classes are faster?

The great Explosive Thin Man won 19 title fights in a row in 3 weight classes. The majority of those wins were at featherweight and Jr lightweight. It was not a fair fight with Arguello fighting featherweight boxers. He was too big for them. At least at Jr. lightweight he had much more fair fights, and still dominated. He had the height and reach for those weight classes.
At lightweight, it became much harder for him. Vilomar Fernandez beat him outright. Some say that Mexican Jose Luis Ramirez beat him in '80. (I haven't seen the fight, yet). Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini was giving him hell, and definitely, he wouldn't beat a prime Roberto Duran in '78. So. that tells me, that as higher he went in weight, he was slower, but still got the height and punching power. Ask Kevin Rooney and Andy Ganigan.

The great Roy Jones, Jr was one of the RARE EXAMPLES of a man going up in weight and STILL, HAD THE SAME SPEED, POWER AND REFLEXES. He was unbelievable. The ONLY KNOCK I GOT AGAINST HIM was that he didn't face the very best after the James Toney fight. I never understood why. But, besides that, he dominated clearly every fighter he faced above his natural weight class which was 154-160lbs range.

The great Henry Armstrong, after finishing the featherweights, JUMPED 20 POUNDS, and dominated the welters. He had 19 title defenses at welterweight, 10 in one year and 3 defenses in one month in 1939. He was UNBELIEVABLE. That's is why I rate him as the greatest boxer ever.

The great Julio Cesar Chavez beat almost everybody from 130 to 140lbs. I don't rated as high as Armstrong or Jones, Jr going up in weight, but, it was a remarkable run, winning 26 title fights in a row.

These were some rare examples of fighters going up in weight dominating almost every fighter they faced. Not too many guys have done that.

The guys above you, Tomasino, are stronger, faster and bigger than you going up. That is a fact. Leonard vs Pryor or Pipino vs Pryor would be too much for Pryor to overcome. One is better than he in almost every department, plus is faster and comfortable in his class. The other would be faster and hit harder than Pryor, even though Pryor had better boxing skills and talent, it wouldn't be enough.

[Ambling Alp II]

You did not answer my question. You gave examples of fighters hwo you think dominated tow weight classes. You said that Alexis Arguello, Roy Jones, Jr, Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, etc. dominated more than one weight class.
I would like you to explain what "dominating a weight class" means in your own words.

Do you understand what I am asking? I don't want examples. I want to know what "dominating a weight class" means to you. What specifically does a fighter do to "dominate" a weight class?
You did touch on something by mentioning they dominated almost every fighter they faced when moving up in weight. So does that mean your definition of a fighter who dominated a weight class is someone who easily beat almost every he faced in the weight class?
If not, what is your definition? Again, I don't want examples. I want your definition.

As for Tomasino and the part of fighters in the higher weight classes: You have now said twice that fighters in higher weight classes are faster. I would agree on average that they are stronger. I don't agree that on average that they are faster. Tomasino and I want to know why you are saying they are faster in a higher weight class?

[elmersalsa]

They are faster in their class because the simple fact, the guy coming up is not as quick as he was in his former weight. The guy coming up will be slower most of the time.

Now, if you didn't understand what dominating a weight class is, I gave you examples. All you got rod is get the picture. If you don't get it, it's your problem not mine.

[Ambling Alp II]

The fighter moving up probably will get a little slower, but his opponents at the higher weight on average will be a little slower as well. His opponents will be on average be a little stronger, but so will he. It pretty much usually evens out.

"All you got rod is get the picture"? What in the world are you talking about? No, I don't get it because it doesn't make any sense.

I will keep it simple. When I get a chance soon, I will start a thread with a list of fighters who moved up in weight and were about as good or even better at the higher weight.

[elmersalsa]

The fighter moving up probably will get a little slower, but his opponents at the higher weight on average will be a little slower as well. His opponents will be on average be a little stronger, but so will he. It pretty much usually evens out.

"All you got rod is get the picture"? What in the world are you talking about? No, I don't get it because it doesn't make any sense.

I will keep it simple. When I get a chance soon, I will start a thread with a list of fighters who moved up in weight and were about as good or even better at the higher weight.

Don't make me laugh. You're the one that is no making any sense. It's been a fact when the smaller guy is coming up in weight is not as fast nor stronger than the champion who's already in his class. Duran vs Leonard I was an example. Duran at lightweight was way much faster than when he was at welterweight and beyond. Benitez, too. Even Leonard.
Some fighters didn't had that problem like Hearns or Jones, Jr or Arguello because their frame was perfect. You want to act ignorant. I don't know what type of game you're playing. But I AM SURE, THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE POSTERS KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

Pryor vs Cuevas or against any good welterweight champ will have lots of problems. He would've not be as fast as Jr welter. That's the reality of boxing.

[Counter-puncher]

elmo, you're talking fvcking nonsense mate.

let me give you just one of many possible examples.

Pernell Whitaker went up to 154 to fight that Argie, Vazquez.

was Vazquez faster than him? course he wasn't. just take the word speed out of your sentence entirely, it's an insane blind alley and you're just adhering to it for the sake of not backtracking.

[elmersalsa]

Another guy is against the logic. Counter puncher, I'm going to ask you one question?

Was the great Pernell Whitaker was fighting Terry Norris? Was the Argentinian better than Norris?

I am saying that the smaller great fighter cannot beat, MOST OF THE TIME, a bigger and great boxer. Then, why Sweet Pea didn't stay there at 154lbs? The reason: He cannot handle the weight like he did at lightweight. Pernell KNEW the deal.

[Counter-puncher]

you said the bigger guys is (amongst other things) faster

that is demonstrably false.

give it up.

[elmersalsa]

you said the bigger guys is (amongst other things) faster

that is demonstrably false.

give it up.

No, I have said, the bigger and great champion beats most of the time, the smaller and great champ/fighter. That's what I have said.
Don't be like Ambling Alp, making the IMPOSSIBLE THE POSSIBLE.

If that's the case, why there's only less than 10 lightweight champions that became welter champs?

Why there's only 2 light-heavyweight champs that became heavyweight champs?

Ambling Alp will answer that for you.

[Ambling Alp II]

elmer, yes you did say it. Twice you have said that fighters are faster at higher weights.

On Wednesday you said " It's not easy to dominate another class above you because THE GUYS THERE ARE STRONGER, FASTER, BIGGER and in many cases as good and talented as you. It's not about talent. It's the weight, the weight."

On Thursday you said "The guys above you, Tomasino, are stronger, faster and bigger than you going up. That is a fact. Leonard vs Pryor or Pipino vs Pryor would be too much for Pryor to overcome. One is better than he in almost every department, plus is faster and comfortable in his class. The other would be faster and hit harder than Pryor, even though Pryor had better boxing skills and talent, it wouldn't be enough."

Gotcha!


Would be happy answer why there is only less than 10 lightweight champions that became welter champs : Because you are counting three different weight classes, not two. You are ignoring the Jr welterweight class. There are several lightweights who won also won the Jr welterweight title. There are also several Jr welterweights who later went on to win the welterweight title. And of course fighters like Jose Napoles that probably could have won the light weight title but never got a shot.

And of course sometimes a fighter just isn't good enough. A fighter could win the lightweight title at a time when the division is weak. By lightweight champion standards, he is not that good. If the jr welter or welterweight champion is decent by 140 or 147 pound champion standards, the lightweight champion probably is not going to be able to win a title at a higher weight. Or the lightweight champ might be a decent lightweight champion, but at that particular time the jr welterweight or welterweight champ might be one of the greats. In that case, he probably won't be able to to win a title at higher weight class.
This has happened frequently over the years across the weight classes.

Why there's only 2 light-heavyweight champs that became heavyweight champs? First, there are three. Michael Spinks, Roy Jones, and Michael Moorer.
Naturally, there are going to be less of these since this is the biggest weight jump. We are talking about a guy moving up from 175 to taking on guys that usually weigh over 200 pounds. As I have said earlier, moving up in weight is more common in the lower weights where the difference is much less.

Even so, there have been several other fighters who fought at a lower weight class who won the heavyweight title:

Bob Fitzsimmons won the middleweight title, then the heavy, then the light heavy. (The light heavyweight tile didn't exist yet when he moved from middle to heavy.)
Tommy Burns was a middleweight for a long time before moving up to heavyweight.
Jimmy Ellis was a middleweight for several years before moving up and winning the heavyweight title.
Ezzard Charles was a middleweight and a light heavyweight who never got a title shot at these weight classes. He moved up and won the heavyweight title.
Gene Tunney was a light heavyweight for a long time, before moving up to heavyweight and winning the heavyweight title.
Jimmmy Braddock was a light heavyweight for a while before moving up and won the heavyweight title.
Max Schmeling was a light heavyweight for a while before moving up to heavyweight and won the heavyweight title.
Evander Holyfield was a cruiserweight before moving up to heavyweight and winning the heavyweight title.

All of these guys started out at a lower weight and moved up to win the heavyweight title.

Glad to help.

[palooka]

[quote="Ambling Alp II"]elmer, yes you did say it. Twice you have said that fighters are faster at higher weights.

On Wednesday you said " It's not easy to dominate another class above you because THE GUYS THERE ARE STRONGER, FASTER, BIGGER and in many cases as good and talented as you. It's not about talent. It's the weight, the weight."

On Thursday you said "The guys above you, Tomasino, are stronger, faster and bigger than you going up. That is a fact. Leonard vs Pryor or Pipino vs Pryor would be too much for Pryor to overcome. One is better than he in almost every department, plus is faster and comfortable in his class. The other would be faster and hit harder than Pryor, even though Pryor had better boxing skills and talent, it wouldn't be enough."

Gotcha!


Would be happy answer why there is only less than 10 lightweight champions that became welter champs : Because you are counting three different weight classes, not two. You are ignoring the Jr welterweight class. There are several lightweights who won also won the Jr welterweight title. There are also several Jr welterweights who later went on to win the welterweight title. And of course fighters like Jose Napoles that probably could have won the light weight title but never got a shot.

And of course sometimes a fighter just isn't good enough. A fighter could win the lightweight title at a time when the division is weak. By lightweight champion standards, he is not that good. If the jr welter or welterweight champion is decent by 140 or 147 pound champion standards, the lightweight champion probably is not going to be able to win a title at a higher weight. Or the lightweight champ might be a decent lightweight champion, but at that particular time the jr welterweight or welterweight champ might be one of the greats. In that case, he probably won't be able to to win a title at higher weight class.
This has happened frequently over the years across the weight classes.

Why there's only 2 light-heavyweight champs that became heavyweight champs? First, there are three. Michael Spinks, Roy Jones, and Michael Moorer.
Naturally, there are going to be less of these since this is the biggest weight jump. We are talking about a guy moving up from 175 to taking on guys that usually weigh over 200 pounds. As I have said earlier, moving up in weight is more common in the lower weights where the difference is much less.

Even so, there have been several other fighters who fought at a lower weight class who won the heavyweight title:

Bob Fitzsimmons won the middleweight title, then the heavy, then the light heavy. (The light heavyweight tile didn't exist yet when he moved from middle to heavy.)
Tommy Burns was a middleweight for a long time before moving up to heavyweight.
Jimmy Ellis was a middleweight for several years before moving up and winning the heavyweight title.
Ezzard Charles was a middleweight and a light heavyweight who never got a title shot at these weight classes. He moved up and won the heavyweight title.
Gene Tunney was a light heavyweight for a long time, before moving up to heavyweight and winning the heavyweight title.
Jimmmy Braddock was a light heavyweight for a while before moving up and won the heavyweight title.
Max Schmeling was a light heavyweight for a while before moving up to heavyweight and won the heavyweight title.
Evander Holyfield was a cruiserweight before moving up to heavyweight and winning the heavyweight title.

All of these guys started out at a lower weight and moved up to win the heavyweight title.

Glad to help. [/qmoving

Now that's a good post

[elmersalsa]

That is not a good post, palooka. Ambling Alp is ignoring the facts. I have never said that champions moving up to another weight class cannot win another title

I have said that THE MAJORITY OF TIMES, THE GREAT BIGGER AND STRONGER CHAMPION, BEATS THE GREAT AND SMALLER CHAMP/FIGHTER.

Ambling Alp is putting just examples. What about the other champions that couldn't win another title in another weight class above them? It's because they don't have the talent? No, it's because the champion above is faster, bigger and stronger plus also.......good!

There are only a few handful of fighters in boxing history that has dominated more than one class. We could count them with one hand. That means that those fighters were special, and in the majority of those cases like the great Roy Jones, Jr or Alexis Arguello, the champions above their weight class were not exceptional.

I have put many examples of champions that were dominant in their class, couldn't dominate the classes above them: Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard, Wilfredo Gomez, Bob Foster, Carlos Zarate, Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles, Kid Gavilan, Sugar Ray Robinson, Terry McGovern, Jimmy Wilde, Willie Pep, Ike Williams, Aaron Pryor, Beau Jack, Mike McCallum, Emile Griffith, Ruben Olivares, to name a few, were dominant champions IN THEIR WEIGHT CLASS. Once they moved up, it was a different story. They lost more fights than usual.

If that's the case for every champion, then THE NUMBERS OF CHAMPIONS going to another class and win should be greater than what is showing. One thing is to go up and win that title above your weight. The other thing is to dominate like you did in your prior class. Not many of them have done it...THAT IS LOGICAL. I DIDN'T INVENTED IT.

[elmersalsa]

And I keep saying this: Leonard/Duran vs Jackson or Pryor vs Cuevas, ARE NOT GOOD MATCHES. They would've received A NASTY KNOCKOUT!

Why? the weight, the weight, weight, man! It would be too much.

[Tomasino]

They are faster in their class because the simple fact, the guy coming up is not as quick as he was in his former weight. The guy coming up will be slower most of the time.

Now, if you didn't understand what dominating a weight class is, I gave you examples. All you got rod is get the picture. If you don't get it, it's your problem not mine.

So let's use some examples her Elmo...Ricardo Lopez is slower than say Manny Pacquiao? Roman Gonzales slower than Floyd jnr? Get a grip, larger athletes are always slower. The pace is much faster in the lighter weights. I agree some fighters moving up in weight do not always carry their speed with them. Is that perhaps what you mean? The fastest middleweight ever is slower than the fastest lightweight for example. I am sure of that.

[elmersalsa]

They are faster in their class because the simple fact, the guy coming up is not as quick as he was in his former weight. The guy coming up will be slower most of the time.

Now, if you didn't understand what dominating a weight class is, I gave you examples. All you got rod is get the picture. If you don't get it, it's your problem not mine.

So let's use some examples her Elmo...Ricardo Lopez is slower than say Manny Pacquiao? Roman Gonzales slower than Floyd jnr? Get a grip, larger athletes are always slower. The pace is much faster in the lighter weights. I agree some fighters moving up in weight do not always carry their speed with them. Is that perhaps what you mean? The fastest middleweight ever is slower than the fastest lightweight for example. I am sure of that.

I have never said that guys in bigger weights are faster. I have said like what you have mentioned in this post, that coming up, the fighter that is coming to the class, is not as fast nor faster than the champ already in his class.

If you say that lower weight fighters are faster than the ones at the bigger weights, then, IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE. But going up in weight is a HANDICAP for any fighter. You are fighting someone as comfortable, stronger, bigger and already accustomed to the class. That's what I am saying that as great and good Aaron Pryor was, he wouldn't beat Pipino Cuevas nor Sugar Ray Leonard. They would be ALL WRONG for the Cincinnati Hawk. Why??? Because the weight. Cuevas and Leonard would be faster than Pryor at welterweight. IT WOULD BE A DISASTER FOR PRYOR.

[Ambling Alp II]

elmer, people have tried to explain it different ways, but you don't ever seem to get it. You asked a couple of questions and I showed you the courtesy of answering them answered them even though you refused to answer mine. And again you didn't get it. Let me try it another way.

Lets say fighter A is the champ at 130. Lets say he decides to move up to 135.
Fighter A probably will be at a little slower at 135 than he was at 130. I think everyone pretty much agrees with that. However, his competition at 135 on average will be slightly slower that his competition was at 130 as well. You keep ignoring this.

Yes on average the fighters at 135 are stronger than the fighters t 130 on average. Again, people pretty much agree with you on this.

However, Fighter A himself will be a little stronger when he adds 5 pounds than he was when he only weighed 130. Again, you keep ignoring this.

To sum it up, when a fighter moves up, he is going to get a slower, but also a little stronger himself.
His opponents are a little stronger, but a little slower.

Another fallacy you have with your reasoning is that when a fighter moves up in weight but doesn't do as well, you assume that is simply because of the weight issue. However, it's often not because of size. The fighter he loses to in the new weight class may simply be better.

Please read what I wrote carefully and think hard. In fact, from now on, please read carefully what anyone write, and think hard before responding. Read what you yourself have wrote carefully before hitting submit.

[Scypion]

I thought that Sugar Ray Robinson was pretty dominant as a middleweight after winning the 160 lb. title right up to his retirement in 1952. His only loss at middleweight at that time was to Randy Turpin, which he made up for pretty well in their rematch.

After his retirement, Robinson did not fight for over 2 1/2 years, but had to come back in 1955 due to money troubles. Ray was past it in his comeback, but still managed to win the undisputed middleweight title 3 more times. He was 34 years old when he took back the middleweight title from Bobo Olson; two days shy of 36 when he regained the title from Gene Fullmer on his famous left hook KO; and 37 when he regained the middleweight title from Carmen Basilio. Anyway, 16 of Robinson's 19 losses were after he came back in 1955 and most were after he turned 40.

[elmersalsa]

I thought that Sugar Ray Robinson was pretty dominant as a middleweight after winning the 160 lb. title right up to his retirement in 1952. His only loss at middleweight at that time was to Randy Turpin, which he made up for pretty well in their rematch.

After his retirement, Robinson did not fight for over 2 1/2 years, but had to come back in 1955 due to money troubles. Ray was past it in his comeback, but still managed to win the undisputed middleweight title 3 more times. He was 34 years old when he took back the middleweight title from Bobo Olson; two days shy of 36 when he regained the title from Gene Fullmer on his famous left hook KO; and 37 when he regained the middleweight title from Carmen Basilio. Anyway, 16 of Robinson's 19 losses were after he came back in 1955 and most were after he turned 40.

The great Sugar Ray Robinson was not as dominant at middleweight as when he was at welterweight.

But, I admit, he was better than many other fighters stepping to another weight class. That's why he's number 2 all time p4p great.

[Ambling Alp II]

Scypion is right, while he was still in his prime Robinson was just as good of a middleweight as he was a welterweight.

Before his retirement in 1952, the loss to Turpin was his only loss when he was a middleweight. He beat several quality middleweights LaMotta, Turpin, Olson, Graziano, Roberto Villemain among them. When he bulked up to fight LaMotta the last time, he had his best performance against LaMotta in 6 fights.

Something else that seldom gets pointed out; he had a fight just nine days before he lost to Turpin. Can you imagine the excuses if some other fighters lost a fight after just 9 days since their previous one?

A lot of people are thinking of the Robinson in fights against Basilio and Fullmer in the late 1950s when they think of Robinson as a middleweight. However, he was was in his mid-30s and was far past his prime by then.

[elmersalsa]

Scypion is right, while he was still in his prime Robinson was just as good of a middleweight as he was a welterweight.

Before his retirement in 1952, the loss to Turpin was his only loss when he was a middleweight. He beat several quality middleweights LaMotta, Turpin, Olson, Graziano, Roberto Villemain among them. When he bulked up to fight LaMotta the last time, he had his best performance against LaMotta in 6 fights.

Something else that seldom gets pointed out; he had a fight just nine days before he lost to Turpin. Can you imagine the excuses if some other fighters lost a fight after just 9 days since their previous one?

A lot of people are thinking of the Robinson in fights against Basilio and Fullmer in the late 1950s when they think of Robinson as a middleweight. However, he was was in his mid-30s and was far past his prime by then.

He was not as dominant. At 147lbs, the great Sugar Ray Robinson didn't even lost one single fight.

That happens to ALMOST EVERY FIGHTER. You cannot dominate two classes.