Fighting Harada, undisputed flyweight Champ?

[AlFrancis]

I always understood Fighting Harada to have been undisputed and lineal Flyweight champ but on his record it shows his fights with Pone Kingpetch to have only been for the WBA title. The Harada-Kingpetch fights both happened before the WBC was inaugurated. I haven't gone through every champs record of the time but it also shows Eder Jofre with a title fight against Joe Medel for only the WBA title in 62 and Joe Brown-Carlos Ortiz as for the WBA title also in 62. Can you clarify this for me because there were no other claimants for those titles at the time and like I said the WBC hadn't been inaugurated? Why aren't these fights just classed as "World Title"?

[Like a Boss]

I always understood Fighting Harada to have been undisputed and lineal Flyweight champ but on his record it shows his fights with Pone Kingpetch to have only been for the WBA title. The Harada-Kingpetch fights both happened before the WBC was inaugurated. I haven't gone through every champs record of the time but it also shows Eder Jofre with a title fight against Joe Medel for only the WBA title in 62 and Joe Brown-Carlos Ortiz as for the WBA title also in 62. Can you clarify this for me because there were no other claimants for those titles at the time and like I said the WBC hadn't been inaugurated? Why aren't these fights just classed as "World Title"?

From what I could see the WBC flyweight title originated in 1962 when Harada beat Kingpetch, and the WBC bantamweight titles came into being in 1962 when Jofre beat Medel.

Interestingly the WBC heavyweight title doesn't look like it came into being until 1970 when Frazier beat Jimmy Ellis - prior to that there was the WBA title and NYSAC title.

[AlFrancis]

Thanks for the response but it doesn't really help. The query is for Boxrec and their lineage of the title/titles through 62. Pone Kingpetch defends his Undisputed lineal title in May 62 against Kyo Noguchi. Next up is Fighting Harada, this fight is accredited with being for the WBA title. Why not the undisputed lineal title? The WBC hasn't been inaugurated at this time. Harada loses the crown in a return to Kingpetch in the January of 63 with the WBA on the line. The WBC is then inaugurated on the 14th Feb 63. Kingpetch's next defence in August is a losing one with the WBA and WBC titles on the line against Hiroyuki Ebihara, in effect the undisputed title. No problems with this as the WBC has by now been inaugurated. Now I've been following boxing a long time, certainly a lot longer than boxrec has been around and I've always understood Harada to be an undisputed flyweight champ which he clearly was ie no other claimant.
Here's another example which goes the other way. On 17th October 62 Emile Griffith claimed the world lightmiddleweight title when he beat Ted Wright. This was only for the Austrian version of the title and was never really taken serious although Boxrec credit it as being for the World title. Fair enough no other other claimants to the title, in fact the WBA didn't recognise the light middleweight title at this point. Three days later Denny Moyer won recognition as WBA champ in their first light middleweight title fight. On the 3rd of Feb 63 Griffith defends the "Austrian" version of the title in a fight Boxrec classifies as the World title. Really it should only say Austrian version because Moyer was claiming the WBA title. On 19th Feb 63 Moyer gains recognition as WBC champ as well, the WBC was 5 days old. Griffith's claim was forgotten about after that, like I said never really taken serious. Looking through the time line it's noted that Griffith's welter weight defence sandwiched inbetween the aforementioned light middleweight title fights on 8th December 62 is classified as being for the WBA and WBC titles, how? The WBC didn't exist until 2 months later.
All I want to know from Boxrec is why Harada's fights with Kingpetch haven't got World title fight under them.

[susano7]

Hello, AlFrancis.
"Harada vs. Kingpetch (1st meeting)" was the World Flyweight Title Fight of the first that WBA authorized.
But, the boxing organization which recognized the "Harada vs. Kingpetch" as "World Title Fight" was not only WBA.
In Boxrec Boxing Records, "WBA World flyweight title" of ID 9034 Fighting Harada (http://boxrec.com/boxer/9034) is a link to "WBA World Flyweight Title (http://boxrec.com/title/WBA?division=Flyweight)".
It is not link to "WBA World Flyweight Title (h)ttp://boxrec.com/title/WBA?division=Flyweight)" even if written it as "World flyweight title".
About Boxrec Boxing Records of Carlos Ortiz and Éder Jofre, it is a reason same as Harada.
Not "World ," what is written as "WBA" is to link to ""WBA World flyweight title" of ID 9034 Fighting Harada is a link to "WBA World Flyweight Title (h)ttp://boxrec.com/title/WBA?division=Flyweight)".

[AlFrancis]

Hello, AlFrancis.
"Harada vs. Kingpetch (1st meeting)" was the World Flyweight Title Fight of the first that WBA authorized.
But, the boxing organization which recognized the "Harada vs. Kingpetch" as "World Title Fight" was not only WBA.
In Boxrec Boxing Records, "WBA World flyweight title" of ID 9034 Fighting Harada (http://boxrec.com/boxer/9034) is a link to "WBA World Flyweight Title (http://boxrec.com/title/WBA?division=Flyweight)".
It is not link to "WBA World Flyweight Title (h)ttp://boxrec.com/title/WBA?division=Flyweight)" even if written it as "World flyweight title".
About Boxrec Boxing Records of Carlos Ortiz and Éder Jofre, it is a reason same as Harada.
Not "World ," what is written as "WBA" is to link to ""WBA World flyweight title" of ID 9034 Fighting Harada is a link to "WBA World Flyweight Title (h)ttp://boxrec.com/title/WBA?division=Flyweight)".

Thanks for getting back to me on that susano. I understand what you're saying but can you just clarify these points for me.

1 Fighting Harada became the undisputed lineal World champion when he beat the undisputed lineal World champion Pone Kingpetch in 1962.

2 The WBA was actually inaugurated in 1921 as the NBA and it was only a name change in 1962 to reflect boxing becoming more global.

3 Why is Emile Griffith's welterweight defence in in December 62 classified as a WBC title fight when the WBC was yet to be inaugurated (Two months later more or less)?

Thanks

[AlFrancis]

By the way susano7, do you work for Boxrec ie are you responding on their behalf?

[susano7]

AlFrancis wrote:
I understand what you're saying but can you just clarify these points for me.

1 Fighting Harada became the undisputed lineal World champion when he beat the undisputed lineal World champion Pone Kingpetch in 1962.

2 The WBA was actually inaugurated in 1921 as the NBA and it was only a name change in 1962 to reflect boxing becoming more global.

3 Why is Emile Griffith's welterweight defence in in December 62 classified as a WBC title fight when the WBC was yet to be inaugurated (Two months later more or less)?

1
The WBA was the only boxing organization which continuously announced the world ratings (world champion and contenders) at that time.
By 1962, North & South America and Orient already joined the WBA, so WBA Champion was the World Champion in those countries.
European Boxing Union (EBU) and British Boxing Board of Control (BBBofC) did not join the WBA, they formed the WBC in February, 1963.
It was necessary to be recognized as world champion by WBA, EBU & BBBofC to become the Undisputed Champion before the WBC was formed.
After "Harada VS Kingpetch (1st meeting)", the WBA recognized Harada as the champion.
EBU and BBBofC did not announce the world ratings (world champion and contenders). But, they recognized champion of their version when they refused champion which WBA recognized.
At that time, EBU (European) Flyweight Champion was Salvatore Burruni (ID 12608, later undisputed flyweight champion), BBBofC British flyweight champion was Jackie Brown (ID 29886), Commonwealth (British Empire) flyweight title was vacant.
EBU & BBBofC had not denied throne of Harada, and they did not force challenge by Burruni & Brown on Harada.
EBU & BBBofC permitted tacitly to Harada as the World Champion.

2
In August, 1962, the NBA changed the name into the WBA.
The name changed it, but the organization did not extend.
Because, the WBA wanted EBU and BBBofC to join them, but was refused.

3
The WBC was formed in February, 1963.
Therefore "WBC World title" of 1962 is all error.
It is the error that someone must revise immediately.
I do not have authority to edit record.

AlFrancis wrote:
By the way susano7, do you work for Boxrec ie are you responding on their behalf?

"work"?
No.

[AlFrancis]

AlFrancis wrote:
I understand what you're saying but can you just clarify these points for me.

1 Fighting Harada became the undisputed lineal World champion when he beat the undisputed lineal World champion Pone Kingpetch in 1962.

2 The WBA was actually inaugurated in 1921 as the NBA and it was only a name change in 1962 to reflect boxing becoming more global.

3 Why is Emile Griffith's welterweight defence in in December 62 classified as a WBC title fight when the WBC was yet to be inaugurated (Two months later more or less)?

1
The WBA was the only boxing organization which continuously announced the world ratings (world champion and contenders) at that time.
By 1962, North & South America and Orient already joined the WBA, so WBA Champion was the World Champion in those countries.
European Boxing Union (EBU) and British Boxing Board of Control (BBBofC) did not join the WBA, they formed the WBC in February, 1963.
It was necessary to be recognized as world champion by WBA, EBU & BBBofC to become the Undisputed Champion before the WBC was formed.
After "Harada VS Kingpetch (1st meeting)", the WBA recognized Harada as the champion.
EBU and BBBofC did not announce the world ratings (world champion and contenders). But, they recognized champion of their version when they refused champion which WBA recognized.
At that time, EBU (European) Flyweight Champion was Salvatore Burruni (ID 12608, later undisputed flyweight champion), BBBofC British flyweight champion was Jackie Brown (ID 29886), Commonwealth (British Empire) flyweight title was vacant.
EBU & BBBofC had not denied throne of Harada, and they did not force challenge by Burruni & Brown on Harada.
EBU & BBBofC permitted tacitly to Harada as the World Champion.

2
In August, 1962, the NBA changed the name into the WBA.
The name changed it, but the organization did not extend.
Because, the WBA wanted EBU and BBBofC to join them, but was refused.

3
The WBC was formed in February, 1963.
Therefore "WBC World title" of 1962 is all error.
It is the error that someone must revise immediately.
I do not have authority to edit record.

AlFrancis wrote:
By the way susano7, do you work for Boxrec ie are you responding on their behalf?

"work"?
No.

OK susano 7, thanks for your input anyway.

[AlFrancis]

Anyone know how I contact Boxrec with this query? I haven't been using this forum much until lately.

[AlFrancis]

AlFrancis wrote:
I understand what you're saying but can you just clarify these points for me.

1 Fighting Harada became the undisputed lineal World champion when he beat the undisputed lineal World champion Pone Kingpetch in 1962.

2 The WBA was actually inaugurated in 1921 as the NBA and it was only a name change in 1962 to reflect boxing becoming more global.

3 Why is Emile Griffith's welterweight defence in in December 62 classified as a WBC title fight when the WBC was yet to be inaugurated (Two months later more or less)?

1
The WBA was the only boxing organization which continuously announced the world ratings (world champion and contenders) at that time.
By 1962, North & South America and Orient already joined the WBA, so WBA Champion was the World Champion in those countries.
European Boxing Union (EBU) and British Boxing Board of Control (BBBofC) did not join the WBA, they formed the WBC in February, 1963.
It was necessary to be recognized as world champion by WBA, EBU & BBBofC to become the Undisputed Champion before the WBC was formed.
After "Harada VS Kingpetch (1st meeting)", the WBA recognized Harada as the champion.
EBU and BBBofC did not announce the world ratings (world champion and contenders). But, they recognized champion of their version when they refused champion which WBA recognized.
At that time, EBU (European) Flyweight Champion was Salvatore Burruni (ID 12608, later undisputed flyweight champion), BBBofC British flyweight champion was Jackie Brown (ID 29886), Commonwealth (British Empire) flyweight title was vacant.
EBU & BBBofC had not denied throne of Harada, and they did not force challenge by Burruni & Brown on Harada.
EBU & BBBofC permitted tacitly to Harada as the World Champion.

2
In August, 1962, the NBA changed the name into the WBA.
The name changed it, but the organization did not extend.
Because, the WBA wanted EBU and BBBofC to join them, but was refused.

3
The WBC was formed in February, 1963.
Therefore "WBC World title" of 1962 is all error.
It is the error that someone must revise immediately.
I do not have authority to edit record.

AlFrancis wrote:
By the way susano7, do you work for Boxrec ie are you responding on their behalf?

"work"?
No.

Hello susano 7- Please ignore my last reply to your response. For some reason the only thing I saw on my phone was your "no" you don't work for boxrec comment in response to my post. I can see your whole post now and It seems we're in complete agreement and Boxrec should revise there timeline circa 1962. I think it's outrageous personally that Boxrec have made it appear that Fighting Harada was not the undisputed World flyweight champ.