Does Thomas Hearns get a fair judgemant by Boxing fans & experts?

[littlepug]

No doubt Leonard was the complete package but I feel there was always a vunerable air about him and didn't have the menace that Tommy had, don't get me wrong Leonard could be a spiteful bastard but didn't have the physical presence hearns had.

[caldo2025]

SRL did not face the same Hagler as The Hitman did. Hearns is responsible for that.

I completely agree that it was not even close to the same Hagler in the ring with SRL that night and maybe Hearns was the reason for it because Hagler looked like a different fighter in the Mugabi fight. I think SRL saw that performance against Mugabi and decided to take the fight. I"m a SRL diehard but even i can admit that SRL did a Floyd and cherry picked Marvin that night. He struck while the iron was hot.

There's not way Ray beats Hagler if they fought it 85'. I can admit it.

[Badhusker]

What's ironic about the Hagler/SRL fight is that the one judge Hagler protested about, and got replaced, said would have scored the fight for Hagler. The replacement judge scored it for Leonard. I imagine he regrets that just a tad bit...

[Counter-puncher]

No doubt Leonard was the complete package but I feel there was always a vunerable air about him and didn't have the menace that Tommy had, don't get me wrong Leonard could be a spiteful bastard but didn't have the physical presence hearns had.

Leonard was as tough as old boots. He took the beating from Duran like a man and ate a lot of punches from Tommy. I wouldn't say that was a vulnerable guy

[littlepug]

No doubt Leonard was the complete package but I feel there was always a vunerable air about him and didn't have the menace that Tommy had, don't get me wrong Leonard could be a spiteful bastard but didn't have the physical presence hearns had.

Leonard was as tough as old boots. He took the beating from Duran like a man and ate a lot of punches from Tommy. I wouldn't say that was a vulnerable guy

Wasn't doubting his toughness just meant his general aura whilst confident wasn't as intense as hearns

[Ezzard]

1) Hearns was not ahead easily on the cards. He was trying to stay out of Leonards way in the 14th, but Leonard was kicking his butt. That was another 10 -8 round for Leonard. Had the fight gone into the 15th round, the scores would have been as follows after 14.
133-132 Hearns
133-131 Hearns
133-133 Hearns

So hearns could not have just tried to run for the final round, if Leonard won the round 10-9 the scores would have been a Majority Draw.

142-142 Even
142-141 -Hearns
142-142 Leonard

so that's a majority draw - however Hearns couldn't have known this going in to the 15th, and in any case, he would have had more pressing concerns, like Leonard taking his head off - even if he survived that last round, he more than likely either takes a standing 8 or gets knocked down at least once, personally, I just don't see him surviving the last round, hell, I don't see him surviving the 14th.

2) I never cited Hearns' destructiveness as a reason for his greatness, chepaaa did - read the posts. I am well aware of Hearns's fantastic boxing skills, how many guys outboxed Leonard for any length of time, or dominated Virgil Hill in a chess match?

3) Duran was arguably the greatest lightweight of all time, and in pretty much every single persons top 5, anything he did over and above this is gravy, yet he went on to beat Leonard at WW, and win titles at 154 and 160. A single loss to Hearns doesn't diminish that.

A single loss to Hearns? Please.

Duran ascendancy to the lightweight title is tainted as is his entire career by his questionable tactics, quitting on the largest of stages and staying way, waaaay past his spoilage date.

All that said, he is an ATG.

But, are you forgetting something? The Hitman won titles at welter, super welter, light heavy AND then dropped back down and a middle weight crown (both in 87), super middle weight, took another light heavy weight crown v the undefeated Virgil Hill and capped his long career off with two separate cruiser weight titles.

You are entitled to your opinion as we all are. IMO The Hitman is superior to Duran, SRL, Pac, FMJ, and Hagler, two of which he lost to.

One of the many points of my view is that Hearns fought the best at there best and kept on going, win, lose or draw. He never quit. He seldom fouled. He very seldom held. He was always fan friendly. He always respected the sport and the fans.

If the talk is p4p in the history of boxing, The Hitman must be considered in the conversation.

He is not given his due.

One more thing about the Leonard fight. And I’m not here to start an argument with Ray’s fans (I’m one myself).

But Tommy weighed a very low 145 for that fight. And it was observed from ringside that he wasn’t sweating under the intense TV lights. There was a lot of talk of Tommy being over-trained for the bout.

In the run up Emmanuel Steward said that he had to stop Tommy doing extra training. He’d find him doing push ups when he should have been resting.

After the fight Steward caught a lot of flak from people who thought Angelo was the difference on the night. He was relaxed going in and motivated his man at the key moments in the fight. Steward on the other hand over prepared Tommy and got his tactics wrong… Tommy not taking advantage of Leonard’s eye and circling in the wrong direction etc...

Fascinating times. I love all the stories that surround these bouts.

[jamesmcdonnell]

1) Hearns was not ahead easily on the cards. He was trying to stay out of Leonards way in the 14th, but Leonard was kicking his butt. That was another 10 -8 round for Leonard. Had the fight gone into the 15th round, the scores would have been as follows after 14.
133-132 Hearns
133-131 Hearns
133-133 Hearns

So hearns could not have just tried to run for the final round, if Leonard won the round 10-9 the scores would have been a Majority Draw.

142-142 Even
142-141 -Hearns
142-142 Leonard

so that's a majority draw - however Hearns couldn't have known this going in to the 15th, and in any case, he would have had more pressing concerns, like Leonard taking his head off - even if he survived that last round, he more than likely either takes a standing 8 or gets knocked down at least once, personally, I just don't see him surviving the last round, hell, I don't see him surviving the 14th.

2) I never cited Hearns' destructiveness as a reason for his greatness, chepaaa did - read the posts. I am well aware of Hearns's fantastic boxing skills, how many guys outboxed Leonard for any length of time, or dominated Virgil Hill in a chess match?

3) Duran was arguably the greatest lightweight of all time, and in pretty much every single persons top 5, anything he did over and above this is gravy, yet he went on to beat Leonard at WW, and win titles at 154 and 160. A single loss to Hearns doesn't diminish that.

A single loss to Hearns? Please.

Duran ascendancy to the lightweight title is tainted as is his entire career by his questionable tactics, quitting on the largest of stages and staying way, waaaay past his spoilage date.

All that said, he is an ATG.

But, are you forgetting something? The Hitman won titles at welter, super welter, light heavy AND then dropped back down and a middle weight crown (both in 87), super middle weight, took another light heavy weight crown v the undefeated Virgil Hill and capped his long career off with two separate cruiser weight titles.

You are entitled to your opinion as we all are. IMO The Hitman is superior to Duran, SRL, Pac, FMJ, and Hagler, two of which he lost to.

One of the many points of my view is that Hearns fought the best at there best and kept on going, win, lose or draw. He never quit. He seldom fouled. He very seldom held. He was always fan friendly. He always respected the sport and the fans.

If the talk is p4p in the history of boxing, The Hitman must be considered in the conversation.

He is not given his due.

One more thing about the Leonard fight. And I’m not here to start an argument with Ray’s fans (I’m one myself).

But Tommy weighed a very low 145 for that fight. And it was observed from ringside that he wasn’t sweating under the intense TV lights. There was a lot of talk of Tommy being over-trained for the bout.

In the run up Emmanuel Steward said that he had to stop Tommy doing extra training. He’d find him doing push ups when he should have been resting.

After the fight Steward caught a lot of flak from people who thought Angelo was the difference on the night. He was relaxed going in and motivated his man at the key moments in the fight. Steward on the other hand over prepared Tommy and got his tactics wrong… Tommy not taking advantage of Leonard’s eye and circling in the wrong direction etc...

Fascinating times. I love all the stories that surround these bouts.

I think that was one of Leonard's greatest assets, he was as cool as a cucumber under the spotlight, and fought so relaxed. He may have been dying inside, but if he was, you'd never have guessed looking at him. Totally implacable.

Angelo sure put a rocket up Ray's arse that night, without him, I very much doubt Leonard would have won.

It does sound like Tommy overtrained, 145 is ridiculously low for a guy who always seemed an implausible welterweight anyway. However, I think again that is part of the demeanour - Ray knew what he had to do, Tommy panicked and went into overdrive, these are all parts of what make fighters great.

[Syntax Error]

Tommy Hearns' problem (if you can call it that) was that although he was undoubtedly great & hugely exciting to watch, he didn't stick around at weights long enough to cement a legacy.

He almost did that at Welterweight, but ended up losing the biggest fight of his life at that weight.

He then went up to 154 & looked like a killer again, but again, his propensity to weight hop led to him being over ambitious & suffering against the might of Marvellous Marvin Hagler.

We all know he went onto win titles at 160 & above, but you could never truly say he was dominant & it is for these reasons why he might not feature as high up as he undoubted talents warrant.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Tommy Hearns' problem (if you can call it that) was that although he was undoubtedly great & hugely exciting to watch, he didn't stick around at weights long enough to cement a legacy.

He almost did that at Welterweight, but ended up losing the biggest fight of his life at that weight.

He then went up to 154 & looked like a killer again, but again, his propensity to weight hop led to him being over ambitious & suffering against the might of Marvellous Marvin Hagler.

We all know he went onto win titles at 160 & above, but you could never truly say he was dominant & it is for these reasons why he might not feature as high up as he undoubted talents warrant.

That's a very good point. He could probably have stayed at 154 and totally dominated the division for years, but then, you can't really blame him for wanting to take on Hagler. However, I agree, that is what hurts his legacy is that he never dominated any division he was in. At 154, for he would have been absolutely dominant, who the hell would have been able to live with him?

[man]

i think thomas was terrific and was unlucky in
the two defining fights of his career. versus ray
i think it was his own mistake. he did well early
one, got caught, was careful, then turned too confident
to bring it home and got caught again. i think
emanuel in his corner saw the threat, but tommy
partially ignored him. a man of his abilities should
have been able to bring it home against the very
tired sugar ray, but it definitely was a very legit stoppage.

against marvin he broke his hand. i don't know how
much of a factor it was in losing. i think he entered
the fight with the wrong strategy namely going toe
to toe with marvin. boxing would have served him
better. you don't punch a puncher, you box him. but
these two epic losses overshadowed too much of his
credentials to make him top ten.

[littlepug]

He didn't need talking into taking hard fights did he ? pretty much prime Leonard , Duran and hagler and he went to war in all 3, and not forgetting the many hard nuts and top talents he also fought, todays lot could do with taking a leaf out of hearns book

[jamesmcdonnell]

Oh to have a Welterweight and Middleweight scene like that now, how blessed I was to be around during those days. Great times for boxing. The last golden age of boxing I'd say.

[Rexob]

Oh to have a Welterweight and Middleweight scene like that now, how blessed I was to be around during those days. Great times for boxing. The last golden age of boxing I'd say.

Yes fantastic years! You don't realise until they are gone how good they were but at least we had the Benn and Eubank fights after.

[littlepug]

We are quite lucky in the uk in that we've always had a decent domestic scene to fall back on in the lean times

[man]

Oh to have a Welterweight and Middleweight scene like that now, how blessed I was to be around during those days. Great times for boxing. The last golden age of boxing I'd say.

i bet very many people said the same thing
back then about SRR or carlos monzon. it is
glorification of the past and this generation
will do the same with floyd et al.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Oh to have a Welterweight and Middleweight scene like that now, how blessed I was to be around during those days. Great times for boxing. The last golden age of boxing I'd say.

i bet very many people said the same thing
back then about SRR or carlos monzon. it is
glorification of the past and this generation
will do the same with floyd et al.

Poppycock.

The eras are not comparable. We never got anything like the fights that were delivered during that Era, Benitez, Duran, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns fought one another IN THEIR PRIMES. This era is marked by the biggest fights NOT happening, or happening when the combatants are passed their best.

[man]

Poppycock.

The eras are not comparable. We never got anything like the fights that were delivered during that Era, Benitez, Duran, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns fought one another IN THEIR PRIMES. This era is marked by the biggest fights NOT happening, or happening when the combatants are passed their best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKMOqDLVFuk

[Chepppaaa]

Oh to have a Welterweight and Middleweight scene like that now, how blessed I was to be around during those days. Great times for boxing. The last golden age of boxing I'd say.

i bet very many people said the same thing
back then about SRR or carlos monzon. it is
glorification of the past and this generation
will do the same with floyd et al.

Poppycock.

The eras are not comparable. We never got anything like the fights that were delivered during that Era, Benitez, Duran, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns fought one another IN THEIR PRIMES. This era is marked by the biggest fights NOT happening, or happening when the combatants are passed their best.

like....

prime margarito vs prime williams
prime mosley vs prime oscar
prime trinidad vs prime vargas
prime mosley vs prime forrest
prime mayweather vs prime canelo
prime pacquiao vs prime marquez
prime rigondeaux vs prime donaire
prime vasquez vs prime marquez

like they did not duck back than. i remember leonard waiting years to finaly fight hagler. or bowe putting the champion belt in the trash not wanting to box lewis....even back back than, why didnt prime marciano vs prime louis happen? or why couldnt prime eubank or prime benn get a shot at prime toney?

[Evander]

Thomas Hearns lit the fuse for me watching boxing and started a run I've never looked back on.
Many of Tommy's fights were very entertaining bouts no matter who he fought or the outcome, he competed against a wide variety of opponents and wasn't afraid to take chances.
At least during the time I have been watching boxing Thomas Hearns can stake a serious claim to being involved in one of the greatest fights I've ever seen against Marvin Hagler, you don't need to do a hard sell on that mayhem as it was genuinely one of the most incredible bouts I've ever seen and easily a top 3 contender perhaps even number 1.

[MachoTime]

Hearns Best Wins

Cuevas
Benitez
Duran
Hill

All Hall of Famers