Is weight advantage more important then skill?

[digzee]

It seems as though as long as you can drain a lot and an have average skill level that's the best way to make it on to the world level these days, skill can only take you so far until you meet a big lump who will walk right through you even though he's less skilled. Guys like Broner who won multiple world titles and Chavez jr are prime examples of this.

Is anyone else fed up of seeing 2 guys in the ring who look 2 weight divisions apart?

[Datsue]

It seems as though as long as you can drain a lot and an have average skill level that's the best way to make it on to the world level these days, skill can only take you so far until you meet a big lump who will walk right through you even though he's less skilled. Guys like Broner who won multiple world titles and Chavez jr are prime examples of this.

Is anyone else fed up of seeing 2 guys in the ring who look 2 weight divisions apart?

LSC versus Mares, anyone?

I dunno mate, I myself am sick of gaming the fcking weight to get a stupidly big advantage, yes. But people just don't seem to mind, or conveniently forget it when it's someone they like who does it.

I think the disparity it creates is not insurmountable but makes it fcuking hard for the guy who's smaller; you don't only have to be better than someone you need to be better-than-someone-plus, if you see what I mean.

They used to have these things called "weight divisions" for a reason. I hope the NSAC banning IV fluid replacement for UFC fighters stymies boxing's obsession with weight-draining/crash-gaining. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

[digzee]

Yeah LSC was the guy coming up in weight but was far bigger on the night. Its funny how 1 small guy he never fought was a guy with superior skills, Rigo

[Datsue]

Yeah LSC was the guy coming up in weight but was far bigger on the night. Its funny how 1 small guy he never fought was a guy with superior skills, Rigo

Rigo or Lomachenko would stand him on his head, imo.

[digzee]

Yeah LSC was the guy coming up in weight but was far bigger on the night. Its funny how 1 small guy he never fought was a guy with superior skills, Rigo

Rigo or Lomachenko would stand him on his head, imo.

Yeah I would pay to see either of those fight him and enjoy every second as he swings for fresh air while getting picked off.

[bripez]

Is anyone else fed up of seeing 2 guys in the ring who look 2 weight divisions apart?

I agree.

It is even more annoying when you get a prospect who is big at the weight boxing an ageing name who spent 90% of their career at a lower weight. In this scenario there can be almost 2 weight divisions between the boxers.

At a lower domestic level what about the prospect v journeyman?

Eg you have a boxer who is able to train full-time and is given a date that they will fight on so that they can train to get their fitness, weight and preparation for a specific date.

The promoter will then find an opponent sometimes at (very) short notice - they can effectively be a division or so smaller, even if they weigh in the same - also, the weigh in might be the day before the fight if it is on a big bill.

There are just so many fights where the odds are significantly stacked in the favour of one of the boxers it is just unreal.

[digzee]

Is anyone else fed up of seeing 2 guys in the ring who look 2 weight divisions apart?

I agree.

It is even more annoying when you get a prospect who is big at the weight boxing an ageing name who spent 90% of their career at a lower weight. In this scenario there can be almost 2 weight divisions between the boxers.

At a lower domestic level what about the prospect v journeyman?

Eg you have a boxer who is able to train full-time and is given a date that they will fight on so that they can train to get their fitness, weight and preparation for a specific date.

The promoter will then find an opponent sometimes at (very) short notice - they can effectively be a division or so smaller, even if they weigh in the same - also, the weigh in might be the day before the fight if it is on a big bill.

There are just so many fights where the odds are significantly stacked in the favour of one of the boxers it is just unreal.

Its half the reason why journeymen come to survive because they are half the size and not prepared, then some people complain and say 'he didn't come to fight', neither would I in that situation. Its ridiculas.

[dookus]

In response to the original question - it very much depends on the styles of both fighters and their particular strengths.

Pressure fighters whose gameplan depends on coming forward will usually benefit from a size advantage as it amplifies their principal strength - i.e. imposing themselves on the opponent. Ricky Hatton is a good example of this - huge at 140 and extremely effective at pushing opponents back, setting the pace and imposing his will; much less so at 147 where key parts of his gameplan (i.e. strength on the inside, consistently heavy punch power) were dramatically less effective against bigger opponents. Volume punchers will clearly benefit from a size advantage for similar reasons - they'll be in a position where they can throw a great deal of comparatively heavy shots.

Conversely, defensive-minded fighters will benefit less from a size advantage as their gameplan won't generally involve imposing their physical strength - especially if they are good movers. Mayweather may have fought at 147 for the last decade but is not physically much different to his 140 incarnation; the way he fights doesn't depend on his size and strength so much as his defensive ability and accuracy. This is of course not always the case; a fighter's defence may depend more on his ability at close range, in which case physical strength will come more into play and a usually defensively sound fighter may find his usual plan doesn't work when being mauled by a bigger fighter.

In terms of strengths rather than styles, boxers with weak-to-average chins will usually benefit from a size advantage as the general power of the shots they take will usually not be enough to trouble them (unless they come up against a genuine puncher whose power isn't diminished by taking on a larger opponent). A boxer with a very good chin won't usually affected either way by a size difference unless they have a particularly bad defence or are also at a significant skill disadvantage and come up against someone bigger.

Punch power is clearly affected to some degree by size difference. A fighter who would not have significant punch power may find his shots have much more effect against an outsized opponent; a usually hard puncher may find bigger opponents soak up his shots more effectively than usual, hence the usual question mark around fighters moving up as to whether their power "carries up the weights". However, fighters who don't rely on their power (or don't have much power) will not really be affected; a Chris Byrd-type fighter won't morph into Earnie Shavers just because he's fighting a smaller guy.

As to the fact that this leads to some utter bullshit in the sport, that I'm afraid is a consequence of having a fragmented sport where every fight comes out of a separate contract and all the conditions under which the fighters take part is negotiable. Until there is some sort of unified body overseeing how the business of boxing is conducted (as opposed to merely setting regulations, appointing officials, and recognising titles) we're going to continue to see fights between boxers who really belong in different weight divisions whatever their physical weight happens to be 24 hours before the match.

[digzee]

In response to the original question - it very much depends on the styles of both fighters and their particular strengths.

Pressure fighters whose gameplan depends on coming forward will usually benefit from a size advantage as it amplifies their principal strength - i.e. imposing themselves on the opponent. Ricky Hatton is a good example of this - huge at 140 and extremely effective at pushing opponents back, setting the pace and imposing his will; much less so at 147 where key parts of his gameplan (i.e. strength on the inside, consistently heavy punch power) were dramatically less effective against bigger opponents. Volume punchers will clearly benefit from a size advantage for similar reasons - they'll be in a position where they can throw a great deal of comparatively heavy shots.

Conversely, defensive-minded fighters will benefit less from a size advantage as their gameplan won't generally involve imposing their physical strength - especially if they are good movers. Mayweather may have fought at 147 for the last decade but is not physically much different to his 140 incarnation; the way he fights doesn't depend on his size and strength so much as his defensive ability and accuracy. This is of course not always the case; a fighter's defence may depend more on his ability at close range, in which case physical strength will come more into play and a usually defensively sound fighter may find his usual plan doesn't work when being mauled by a bigger fighter.

In terms of strengths rather than styles, boxers with weak-to-average chins will usually benefit from a size advantage as the general power of the shots they take will usually not be enough to trouble them (unless they come up against a genuine puncher whose power isn't diminished by taking on a larger opponent). A boxer with a very good chin won't usually affected either way by a size difference unless they have a particularly bad defence or are also at a significant skill disadvantage and come up against someone bigger.

Punch power is clearly affected to some degree by size difference. A fighter who would not have significant punch power may find his shots have much more effect against an outsized opponent; a usually hard puncher may find bigger opponents soak up his shots more effectively than usual, hence the usual question mark around fighters moving up as to whether their power "carries up the weights". However, fighters who don't rely on their power (or don't have much power) will not really be affected; a Chris Byrd-type fighter won't morph into Earnie Shavers just because he's fighting a smaller guy.

As to the fact that this leads to some utter bullshit in the sport, that I'm afraid is a consequence of having a fragmented sport where every fight comes out of a separate contract and all the conditions under which the fighters take part is negotiable. Until there is some sort of unified body overseeing how the business of boxing is conducted (as opposed to merely setting regulations, appointing officials, and recognising titles) we're going to continue to see fights between boxers who really belong in different weight divisions whatever their physical weight happens to be 24 hours before the match.

Very good post

[Redback Rasta]

In response to the original question - it very much depends on the styles of both fighters and their particular strengths.

Pressure fighters whose gameplan depends on coming forward will usually benefit from a size advantage as it amplifies their principal strength - i.e. imposing themselves on the opponent. Ricky Hatton is a good example of this - huge at 140 and extremely effective at pushing opponents back, setting the pace and imposing his will; much less so at 147 where key parts of his gameplan (i.e. strength on the inside, consistently heavy punch power) were dramatically less effective against bigger opponents. Volume punchers will clearly benefit from a size advantage for similar reasons - they'll be in a position where they can throw a great deal of comparatively heavy shots.

Conversely, defensive-minded fighters will benefit less from a size advantage as their gameplan won't generally involve imposing their physical strength - especially if they are good movers. Mayweather may have fought at 147 for the last decade but is not physically much different to his 140 incarnation; the way he fights doesn't depend on his size and strength so much as his defensive ability and accuracy. This is of course not always the case; a fighter's defence may depend more on his ability at close range, in which case physical strength will come more into play and a usually defensively sound fighter may find his usual plan doesn't work when being mauled by a bigger fighter.

In terms of strengths rather than styles, boxers with weak-to-average chins will usually benefit from a size advantage as the general power of the shots they take will usually not be enough to trouble them (unless they come up against a genuine puncher whose power isn't diminished by taking on a larger opponent). A boxer with a very good chin won't usually affected either way by a size difference unless they have a particularly bad defence or are also at a significant skill disadvantage and come up against someone bigger.

Punch power is clearly affected to some degree by size difference. A fighter who would not have significant punch power may find his shots have much more effect against an outsized opponent; a usually hard puncher may find bigger opponents soak up his shots more effectively than usual, hence the usual question mark around fighters moving up as to whether their power "carries up the weights". However, fighters who don't rely on their power (or don't have much power) will not really be affected; a Chris Byrd-type fighter won't morph into Earnie Shavers just because he's fighting a smaller guy.

As to the fact that this leads to some utter bullshit in the sport, that I'm afraid is a consequence of having a fragmented sport where every fight comes out of a separate contract and all the conditions under which the fighters take part is negotiable. Until there is some sort of unified body overseeing how the business of boxing is conducted (as opposed to merely setting regulations, appointing officials, and recognising titles) we're going to continue to see fights between boxers who really belong in different weight divisions whatever their physical weight happens to be 24 hours before the match.

x 2

[Kingfield]

It seems as though as long as you can drain a lot and an have average skill level that's the best way to make it on to the world level these days, skill can only take you so far until you meet a big lump who will walk right through you even though he's less skilled. Guys like Broner who won multiple world titles and Chavez jr are prime examples of this.

Is anyone else fed up of seeing 2 guys in the ring who look 2 weight divisions apart?

LSC versus Mares, anyone?

I dunno mate, I myself am sick of gaming the fcking weight to get a stupidly big advantage, yes. But people just don't seem to mind, or conveniently forget it when it's someone they like who does it.

I think the disparity it creates is not insurmountable but makes it fcuking hard for the guy who's smaller; you don't only have to be better than someone you need to be better-than-someone-plus, if you see what I mean.

They used to have these things called "weight divisions" for a reason. I hope the NSAC banning IV fluid replacement for UFC fighters stymies boxing's obsession with weight-draining/crash-gaining. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

IV fluid doesnt actually make a difference, it doesnt rehydrate any quicker than oral hydration.

As someone who has made quite a good living from working with combat athletes to make weight, my opinion is that same day weigh in's are a must. The weight thing is just another 'competitive edge' and whilst its not breaking any rules, ethically it's very close to the bone and i would rather fighters just fight at their normal weight.

[Stuarty]

Yeah LSC was the guy coming up in weight but was far bigger on the night. Its funny how 1 small guy he never fought was a guy with superior skills, Rigo

Rigo or Lomachenko would stand him on his head, imo.

Agree. I'd give Frampton, Quigg and Selby a decent chance against him too. Talking Lomachenko, didn't Salido rehydrate to a ridiculous weight in their fight?

[Counter-puncher]

@kngfield: As a professional what would you say is the 'maximum' amount for a fighter to drain from and rehydrate to, within the current timeframe, say for a middleweight?

[Counter-puncher]

Yeah LSC was the guy coming up in weight but was far bigger on the night. Its funny how 1 small guy he never fought was a guy with superior skills, Rigo

Rigo or Lomachenko would stand him on his head, imo.

Agree. I'd give Frampton, Quigg and Selby a decent chance against him too. Talking Lomachenko, didn't Salido rehydrate to a ridiculous weight in their fight?

Yes I think salido was about 150 in the ring

[Kingfield]

@kngfield: As a professional what would you say is the 'maximum' amount for a fighter to drain from and rehydrate to, within the current timeframe, say for a middleweight?

I wouldnt want to go over 8% dehydration. Total weight will depend on things such as glycogen levels too. Most i have taken off a middleweight was 19lbs, went in to the ring 22.5lbs over weigh in weight.

[Counter-puncher]

@kngfield: As a professional what would you say is the 'maximum' amount for a fighter to drain from and rehydrate to, within the current timeframe, say for a middleweight?

I wouldnt want to go over 8% dehydration. Total weight will depend on things such as glycogen levels too. Most i have taken off a middleweight was 19lbs, went in to the ring 22.5lbs over weigh in weight.

thanks for that

food for thought boxrecers.

[Shirow]

IV fluid doesnt actually make a difference, it doesnt rehydrate any quicker than oral hydration.

That's surprising to hear. I thought it was generally accepted that this is the case. Why is it done then? I assume that big drainers rehydrate both orally and via IV. Is there any advantage in this over oral only rehydration?

I was thinking this over the other day when i thought of George Hillyard. He is/was a decent boxer but to compete these days you have to be capable of starving/dehydrating yourself down to an unnatural weight for a short time and he just couldn't.

It's a shame when skills and fitness aren't enough.

The only way ahead i think would be for governing bodies to limit rehydration when fighting for a title. I think very quickly boxer's teams would realise it's better to move up in weight rather than try and fight still dehydrated. I used to suggest a 5% limit would be best but i think maybe it's more logical to have to enter the ring under the next weight category limit.

[Kingfield]

IV fluid doesnt actually make a difference, it doesnt rehydrate any quicker than oral hydration.

That's surprising to hear. I thought it was generally accepted that this is the case. Why is it done then? I assume that big drainers rehydrate both orally and via IV. Is there any advantage in this over oral only rehydration?

I was thinking this over the other day when i thought of George Hillyard. He is/was a decent boxer but to compete these days you have to be capable of starving/dehydrating yourself down to an unnatural weight for a short time and he just couldn't.

It's a shame when skills and fitness aren't enough.

The only way ahead i think would be for governing bodies to limit rehydration when fighting for a title. I think very quickly boxer's teams would realise it's better to move up in weight rather than try and fight still dehydrated. I used to suggest a 5% limit would be best but i think maybe it's more logical to have to enter the ring under the next weight category limit.

because most people doing it probably dont understand hydration and the role the stomach plays. they probably see that IV is used in hospitals and think thats the best way, as well theDr's use it when someone is dehydrated. The problem is when a saline IV solution is used it is usually because the person cannot 'stomach' an oral solution or is not with it enough, so it's quicker and easier to bang an IV in.

electrolytes are depleted when dehydrated, too much in one hit and the water will just sit in the stomach. so an IV could be easier, but not many people understand why/what circumstances to use them. it offers no performance benefits either.

[jamesmcdonnell]

IV fluid doesnt actually make a difference, it doesnt rehydrate any quicker than oral hydration.

That's surprising to hear. I thought it was generally accepted that this is the case. Why is it done then? I assume that big drainers rehydrate both orally and via IV. Is there any advantage in this over oral only rehydration?

I was thinking this over the other day when i thought of George Hillyard. He is/was a decent boxer but to compete these days you have to be capable of starving/dehydrating yourself down to an unnatural weight for a short time and he just couldn't.

It's a shame when skills and fitness aren't enough.

The only way ahead i think would be for governing bodies to limit rehydration when fighting for a title. I think very quickly boxer's teams would realise it's better to move up in weight rather than try and fight still dehydrated. I used to suggest a 5% limit would be best but i think maybe it's more logical to have to enter the ring under the next weight category limit.

because most people doing it probably dont understand hydration and the role the stomach plays. they probably see that IV is used in hospitals and think thats the best way, as well theDr's use it when someone is dehydrated. The problem is when a saline IV solution is used it is usually because the person cannot 'stomach' an oral solution or is not with it enough, so it's quicker and easier to bang an IV in.

electrolytes are depleted when dehydrated, too much in one hit and the water will just sit in the stomach. so an IV could be easier, but not many people understand why/what circumstances to use them. it offers no performance benefits either.

Well, it would have to be at least a little quicker, as it doesn't have to first pass through the digestive system surely? If it is going straight to the bloodstream it will get to the tissues quicker, though not significantly enough to confer much benefit I'd imagine.

[Counter-puncher]

also i would imagine the IV is useful as and when rehydration goals are in excess of the stomach's capacity in a shortish time period?

[Crease]

They used to have these things called "weight divisions" for a reason.

Agreed. There's a very strong argument to say that there are far too many weight divisions these days. And I have noticed this obsession that fighters have of jumping weights because they have this belief that if they become two weight World Champions it automatically gives them enhanced recognition and credibility in the eyes of the boxing world. But for me, it is definitely a flawed concept.

Looking back throughout history, there is a respect and fascination for the likes of Sugar Ray Robinson & Roberto Duran who moved through the weights classes - but more importantly - fought the best possible opposition from each division.

This just doesn't happen these days, and I'm looking at the likes of Ricky Burns & Leo Santa Cruz here (and a multitude of others) winning titles does count for something, but who you are defeating is equally as important.

[Kingfield]

That's surprising to hear. I thought it was generally accepted that this is the case. Why is it done then? I assume that big drainers rehydrate both orally and via IV. Is there any advantage in this over oral only rehydration?

I was thinking this over the other day when i thought of George Hillyard. He is/was a decent boxer but to compete these days you have to be capable of starving/dehydrating yourself down to an unnatural weight for a short time and he just couldn't.

It's a shame when skills and fitness aren't enough.

The only way ahead i think would be for governing bodies to limit rehydration when fighting for a title. I think very quickly boxer's teams would realise it's better to move up in weight rather than try and fight still dehydrated. I used to suggest a 5% limit would be best but i think maybe it's more logical to have to enter the ring under the next weight category limit.

because most people doing it probably dont understand hydration and the role the stomach plays. they probably see that IV is used in hospitals and think thats the best way, as well theDr's use it when someone is dehydrated. The problem is when a saline IV solution is used it is usually because the person cannot 'stomach' an oral solution or is not with it enough, so it's quicker and easier to bang an IV in.

electrolytes are depleted when dehydrated, too much in one hit and the water will just sit in the stomach. so an IV could be easier, but not many people understand why/what circumstances to use them. it offers no performance benefits either.[/quote]

Well, it would have to be at least a little quicker, as it doesn't have to first pass through the digestive system surely? If it is going straight to the bloodstream it will get to the tissues quicker, though not significantly enough to confer much benefit I'd imagine.[/quote]

it's debatable, very little reputable data show its quicker, especially in athletes, plus at some point you're going to need to put food in to the stomach, which is also dehydrated too. so it needs priming as you will need to put glucose in for glycogen replenishment too. it's not just the tissues which need rehydrating, it is muscles, cells, subcutaneous as well as in extreme cases fluid from around the brain too. remember alvarado when he was severely dehydrated? the reports i had from there was that he was struggling to speak and answer questions, he was at a dangerous level of dehydration and showed signs of fluid from around his brain being depleted.

if a fighter can hydrate orally they should do because it's better for them. a lot of the 'quicker' from iv comes from not understanding whats actually dehydrated and what needs to be undone in that state. a lot of fighters who have iv will then have a bd stomach, as it's not been prepared to take on the right fluids and food.

[jamesmcdonnell]

That's surprising to hear. I thought it was generally accepted that this is the case. Why is it done then? I assume that big drainers rehydrate both orally and via IV. Is there any advantage in this over oral only rehydration?

I was thinking this over the other day when i thought of George Hillyard. He is/was a decent boxer but to compete these days you have to be capable of starving/dehydrating yourself down to an unnatural weight for a short time and he just couldn't.

It's a shame when skills and fitness aren't enough.

The only way ahead i think would be for governing bodies to limit rehydration when fighting for a title. I think very quickly boxer's teams would realise it's better to move up in weight rather than try and fight still dehydrated. I used to suggest a 5% limit would be best but i think maybe it's more logical to have to enter the ring under the next weight category limit.

because most people doing it probably dont understand hydration and the role the stomach plays. they probably see that IV is used in hospitals and think thats the best way, as well theDr's use it when someone is dehydrated. The problem is when a saline IV solution is used it is usually because the person cannot 'stomach' an oral solution or is not with it enough, so it's quicker and easier to bang an IV in.

electrolytes are depleted when dehydrated, too much in one hit and the water will just sit in the stomach. so an IV could be easier, but not many people understand why/what circumstances to use them. it offers no performance benefits either.

Well, it would have to be at least a little quicker, as it doesn't have to first pass through the digestive system surely? If it is going straight to the bloodstream it will get to the tissues quicker, though not significantly enough to confer much benefit I'd imagine.[/quote]

it's debatable, very little reputable data show its quicker, especially in athletes, plus at some point you're going to need to put food in to the stomach, which is also dehydrated too. so it needs priming as you will need to put glucose in for glycogen replenishment too. it's not just the tissues which need rehydrating, it is muscles, cells, subcutaneous as well as in extreme cases fluid from around the brain too. remember alvarado when he was severely dehydrated? the reports i had from there was that he was struggling to speak and answer questions, he was at a dangerous level of dehydration and showed signs of fluid from around his brain being depleted.

if a fighter can hydrate orally they should do because it's better for them. a lot of the 'quicker' from iv comes from not understanding whats actually dehydrated and what needs to be undone in that state. a lot of fighters who have iv will then have a bd stomach, as it's not been prepared to take on the right fluids and food.[/quote]

Tissues surely are, muscles, subcutatenous skin etc, and surely the fluid around the brain would be more quickly replaced via IV, as the fluid is going directly into the bloodstream, and will therefore go into that area much quicker than via the digestive system? From what I understand, ALL of the tissues of the body, every type, is affected by extreme dehydration. Where's Rhino when you need him, he'd know this shit.

[keithmoonhangover]

It seems as though as long as you can drain a lot and an have average skill level that's the best way to make it on to the world level these days, skill can only take you so far until you meet a big lump who will walk right through you even though he's less skilled. Guys like Broner who won multiple world titles and Chavez jr are prime examples of this.

Is anyone else fed up of seeing 2 guys in the ring who look 2 weight divisions apart?

Broner didn't look two divisions bigger at welter.

[digzee]

It seems as though as long as you can drain a lot and an have average skill level that's the best way to make it on to the world level these days, skill can only take you so far until you meet a big lump who will walk right through you even though he's less skilled. Guys like Broner who won multiple world titles and Chavez jr are prime examples of this.

Is anyone else fed up of seeing 2 guys in the ring who look 2 weight divisions apart?

Broner didn't look two divisions bigger at welter.

He did at SFW and LW, then when he fought guys his own size at WW he lost both big fights (Paulie doesn't count as a big fight)...