Larry Holmes career...if

[davie]

George Foreman didn't take 10 years out?

How would it look?
Larry dominated from 78-85, with big George out of the ring between 77-87.

Larry has taken some, often unfair, criticism for the lack of opposition in the post Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton era but with George still only 28 when he bowed out, how would the heavyweight scene have looked had he stuck around and competed with Holmes in those years?

[Syntax Error]

Interesting question.

As far as a head-to-head goes, I can't see Foreman beating Holmes because of his one dimensional nature, but as far as the bigger picture goes, I could see Foreman having one or more of the other HW trinkets & the two of them reigning simultaneously, but like I have said already, if they met up in a unification fight, Holmes wins every time for me.

What's also interesting is how Big George would have fared against some of the talented, other 80s HWs, some of whom who ate or snorted away their talents; the likes of Tate, Weaver, Witherspoon, Berbick, Thomas, Tubbs etc.

I can see George having his work cut out against some of them if they turned up focused & ready.

[davie]

Interesting question.

As far as a head-to-head goes, I can't see Foreman beating Holmes because of his one dimensional nature, but as far as the bigger picture goes, I could see Foreman having one or more of the other HW trinkets & the two of them reigning simultaneously, but like I have said already, if they met up in a unification fight, Holmes wins every time for me.

What's also interesting is how Big George would have fared against some of the talented, other 80s HWs, some of whom who ate or snorted away their talents; the likes of Tate, Weaver, Witherspoon, Berbick, Thomas, Tubbs etc.

I can see George having his work cut out against some of them if they turned up focused & ready.

What, the same George Foreman that twice pummeled Joe Frazier and put Norton on his ass 3 times in 2 rounds?
He struggles with Tate, Weaver, Witherspoon, Berbick, Thomas and Tubbs?

I struggle to pick a winner with him and a prime Holmes, who was a formidable figure.
So I respect your decision to back Holmes (although I'd say "every time" is strong, I don't think I'd back anyone "every time" against Foreman).

But to say the man that was in a fight of the year with Ali in 74 and won a world title in 94 would have struggled with the nearly men of 84 is a stretch

[Crease]

Maybe it's just me, but I can't see past George Foreman dominating the late 70s & early 80s (until Mike Tyson comes up)

[HomicideHenry]

The Foreman who lost to Ali, and then lost to Jimmy Young, was an emotionally broken man. People under-estimate the fact that it took George Foreman a decade to recollect himself to be able to compete again. George Foreman, in the mental state he was in, could have been twice as powerful and would of still came up short against Larry Holmes and some others. People often forget that in this business the greatest opponent you ever face is your own self. Had he continued boxing, I think George would of became one of those tragic stories of a talent losing everything and winded up dead, a mere shadow of who he once was.

Even George at his mental, physical, emotional and spiritual best would of had a difficult time with Larry Holmes. Let alone a mentally destroyed George. I could see someone like Dynamite Dokes giving him fits. I could see someone like Gerrie Coetzee giving him problems. I could see someone like Earnie Shavers giving him issues. Albeit, we're speaking hypothetically here with the mindset of "What if Foreman hadn't of retired?"... simply put, there would of been no Cinderella story, no recapture of the crown, and no happy endings.

[Bodyshot3]

Never sure about this scenario...which for the record, is a really good one and intriguing.

Holmes had fine skills - including a 24 carat jab - and was consistently organised, fit and strong. Whilst everyone else was partying, Holmes was in the gym and making sure his great ability was boosted by a superior work ethic.

For sure there was the odd Scott LeDoux and Ossie Ocasio in there but a great deal of the fights Larry made look easy was because he packed some major talent and was a total professional. And the win over Cooney...he was a massive man who hit like hell....should never be discounted.

So I guess it comes down to whether a Foreman (with his head completely straight) could have bulled through Larry and landed some fight ending punches. The fact that a much older Foreman - with many of his advantages compromised - reappeared on the scene a great deal later and was such a threat suggests to me that he would have represented a massive threat to Larry's supremacy.

I can see these two having a classic late 70's-early 80s triology of fights before Tyson arrives on the scene. For my money, only Witherspoon could have potentially upset this applecart but it would have to be a sober/happy Spoon without his arse owned by Don King.

[Syntax Error]

Interesting question.

As far as a head-to-head goes, I can't see Foreman beating Holmes because of his one dimensional nature, but as far as the bigger picture goes, I could see Foreman having one or more of the other HW trinkets & the two of them reigning simultaneously, but like I have said already, if they met up in a unification fight, Holmes wins every time for me.

What's also interesting is how Big George would have fared against some of the talented, other 80s HWs, some of whom who ate or snorted away their talents; the likes of Tate, Weaver, Witherspoon, Berbick, Thomas, Tubbs etc.

I can see George having his work cut out against some of them if they turned up focused & ready.

What, the same George Foreman that twice pummeled Joe Frazier and put Norton on his ass 3 times in 2 rounds?
He struggles with Tate, Weaver, Witherspoon, Berbick, Thomas and Tubbs?

I struggle to pick a winner with him and a prime Holmes, who was a formidable figure.
So I respect your decision to back Holmes (although I'd say "every time" is strong, I don't think I'd back anyone "every time" against Foreman).

But to say the man that was in a fight of the year with Ali in 74 and won a world title in 94 would have struggled with the nearly men of 84 is a stretch

Foreman was not the same animal post Ali; watch the Ron Lyle & Jimmy Young fights to see.

He beat Lyle, but he was all but knocked out at one stage & Young schooled him in '77.

[Cutman Scabbers]

Sure came back strong though in his second coming.

I'd pick the older Foreman over the younger.

[Syntax Error]

Sure came back strong though in his second coming.

I'd pick the older Foreman over the younger.

I've always said that if you could marry Foreman's two incarnations, he'd be largely unbeatable.

He was a better all-round fighter the second time round, but by then, he was so slow, you could see his punches coming from a year ago.

[Cutman Scabbers]

Sure came back strong though in his second coming.

I'd pick the older Foreman over the younger.

I've always said that if you could marry Foreman's two incarnations, he'd be largely unbeatable.

He was a better all-round fighter the second time round, but by then, he was so slow, you could see his punches coming from a year ago.

Well said!

I think his speed -- or lack thereof -- was deceptive.

Foreman Mark II went out of his way to take his time and act the part of the ponderous
old-timer. However, he still had some quickness. I think he got that from Sonny Liston.
Liston was so strong and powerful, people sometimes criticize his speed, but he was
not slow either.

[Bodyshot3]

Well said!

I think his speed -- or lack thereof -- was deceptive.

Foreman Mark II went out of his way to take his time and act the part of the ponderous
old-timer. However, he still had some quickness. I think he got that from Sonny Liston.
Liston was so strong and powerful, people sometimes criticize his speed, but he was
not slow either.

Agreed as well....George was very, very cunning when he came back... both inside and outside of the ring.

He ladled all the pressure on opponents by constantly referencing his age and fondness for eating for Texas whilst knowing he still had the big punch, decent hand speed and the know-how to compete.

The way he used those truly massive arms to block punches and also smother/tire opponents was exceptional; he was also a good deal fitter and worked far harder than he was prepared to let on.

There's a good thread on Morrison running at the moment which points to the fact that Tommy's best win might well have been when he decided to turn boxer against George and not risk getting into a grenade-throwing contest.

[keithmoonhangover]

George Foreman didn't take 10 years out?

How would it look?
Larry dominated from 78-85, with big George out of the ring between 77-87.

Larry has taken some, often unfair, criticism for the lack of opposition in the post Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton era but with George still only 28 when he bowed out, how would the heavyweight scene have looked had he stuck around and competed with Holmes in those years?

Styles make fights. Year for year, Holmes always beats Foreman. If you don't know that, you don't know boxing.

[davie]

George Foreman didn't take 10 years out?

How would it look?
Larry dominated from 78-85, with big George out of the ring between 77-87.

Larry has taken some, often unfair, criticism for the lack of opposition in the post Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton era but with George still only 28 when he bowed out, how would the heavyweight scene have looked had he stuck around and competed with Holmes in those years?

Styles make fights. Year for year, Holmes always beats Foreman. If you don't know that, you don't know boxing.

Sorry, should have known better.

[energie]

tough to say because foreman looked pitiful in 77 loosing to jimmy young but also in 77 larry holmes didnt look all that great against horace robinson nor tom prater / so ill say in 77 george foreman beats a crude larry holmes= holmes began to shine in the 1st earnie shavers fight in 1978 ...i think around that time foreman couldnt beat larry holmes and foreman always had problems with boxers(peralta/ali/young) ....but no way in hell does a 1977 version of larry holmes beat a 1976 or 1977 version of george foreman ,,,,,,

[caldo2025]

What a great question. Most fighters are in their prime at 28-32 so that means that we never seen George Foreman fighting in his prime since he retired at 28. That's pretty sad.

But Holmes in his prime would have given any of the great heavyweights a tough night. I also think that George choosing not to fight during Larry Holmes reign was no matter of circumstance. George came back right when the state of the heavyweight division dropped in quality. Michael Moorer could be one of the worst heavyweight champions to ever hoist a belt. I think that George was waiting for the right time and he took advantage of it. He didn't want any part of Holmes because he knew that Larry's jackhammer jab would be on him all night keeping him away from landing anything big.

Larry beats George by unanimous decision and fairly easily IMO.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Indeed, it's clear most of you poor dears love to gather in a circle to whet your fantasies over over Mr. Larry, sweet.

Some dears swear that Mr. Larry was undisputed, but not in the Guinness book of records. Never held more than a single belt, swapping his WBC for the newly created IBF belt that he help author in one of the shadiest deals in boxing. There were 11 WBC/IBF champions during his so called run of defenses, yet he never manned up to a single one, so his record against fellow champions is a poor 1-3, 0 KO. Finally lost the plot against Michel Spinks, the best prime HOFer he had ever faced. Threw a hissy fit to go home and sulk before beginning a year long campaign of training at his personal gym to fight Mike Tyson, baiting him at every Tyson defense. When the time came to put up or shut up, Mr. Larry shut up post haste, crucified on the canvas for the 60 count. Had he been any good he would've been in the mix with Ali, Frazier, Norton, and Foreman, but instead he got sent to the woodshed by Dwayne Bobick in the Olympic Trials and spent several years building up his fragile self esteem before getting sucked into the vacuum left after all had retired. A faded Ken Norton gave him more than he could handle, but like Foreman with Ali, no rematch for Ken.

Foreman was the better in the same years they actually did fight, not even close, and finished with a better career record in spite of getting robbed by Holyfield who was hanging on for dear life in the closing rounds, and Briggs who ran like Larry did against Butterbean. Mr. Larry had the poorest lineal claim to the title, a sick, retired Ali, since Jeffries stepped out of 6 years of retirement and 100 lbs of blubber to be whomped by Jack Johnson. Foreman was ducked during his best years by Ali and Tyson. Nobody ducked Mr. Larry who had a host of disputed decisions.

But wait, he baited Butterbean for a year. Never learning his Tyson lessons, he said some really nasty stuff, but when time to put up or shut up he ran like a bunny only to get knocked down in the 10th round by the huffing 4 round, 350 lb Bean as time was running out. What did Mr Larry do upon rising? Why he turned his back on the ref, grabbed the rope for support and rode it to the other corner as the ref chased him down. He wouldn't give Bean a sporting chance to knock him out, the poorest ever finish for a HoFer who started his induction being thrown out of the grounds. Let back in the next day, he went on a 20 min rant against his sworn enemy, Big George, who made all those hundreds of millions and all those fans that Mr. Larry thought belonged to him. Ducked the rematch with Bobick in the pros, but he's your kind of guy, so enjoy.

Big George KO all day every day over Mr. Larry. 8)

[Rexob]

I think Holmes would retired Foreman permanently, if Foreman had stayed active, Ali destroyed him mentally and Holmes would have jabbed his head off all night.

[Caractacus]

- Indeed, it's clear most of you poor dears love to gather in a circle to whet your fantasies over over Mr. Larry, sweet.

Some dears swear that Mr. Larry was undisputed, but not in the Guinness book of records. Never held more than a single belt, swapping his WBC for the newly created IBF belt that he help author in one of the shadiest deals in boxing. There were 11 WBC/IBF champions during his so called run of defenses, yet he never manned up to a single one, so his record against fellow champions is a poor 1-3, 0 KO. Finally lost the plot against Michel Spinks, the best prime HOFer he had ever faced. Threw a hissy fit to go home and sulk before beginning a year long campaign of training at his personal gym to fight Mike Tyson, baiting him at every Tyson defense. When the time came to put up or shut up, Mr. Larry shut up post haste, crucified on the canvas for the 60 count. Had he been any good he would've been in the mix with Ali, Frazier, Norton, and Foreman, but instead he got sent to the woodshed by Dwayne Bobick in the Olympic Trials and spent several years building up his fragile self esteem before getting sucked into the vacuum left after all had retired. A faded Ken Norton gave him more than he could handle, but like Foreman with Ali, no rematch for Ken.

Foreman was the better in the same years they actually did fight, not even close, and finished with a better career record in spite of getting robbed by Holyfield who was hanging on for dear life in the closing rounds, and Briggs who ran like Larry did against Butterbean. Mr. Larry had the poorest lineal claim to the title, a sick, retired Ali, since Jeffries stepped out of 6 years of retirement and 100 lbs of blubber to be whomped by Jack Johnson. Foreman was ducked during his best years by Ali and Tyson. Nobody ducked Mr. Larry who had a host of disputed decisions.

But wait, he baited Butterbean for a year. Never learning his Tyson lessons, he said some really nasty stuff, but when time to put up or shut up he ran like a bunny only to get knocked down in the 10th round by the huffing 4 round, 350 lb Bean as time was running out. What did Mr Larry do upon rising? Why he turned his back on the ref, grabbed the rope for support and rode it to the other corner as the ref chased him down. He wouldn't give Bean a sporting chance to knock him out, the poorest ever finish for a HoFer who started his induction being thrown out of the grounds. Let back in the next day, he went on a 20 min rant against his sworn enemy, Big George, who made all those hundreds of millions and all those fans that Mr. Larry thought belonged to him. Ducked the rematch with Bobick in the pros, but he's your kind of guy, so enjoy.

Big George KO all day every day over Mr. Larry. 8)

I think its safe to assume that you not much of a Larry Holmes fan then ?

[Caractacus]

here is Larry Holmes vrs Butterbean from 2002.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT7LbFnpVz4

BTW check out Gerry Cooney at ringside smoking a big cigar at 6:30 (looking a little olde school like James J. Jeffries back in the day.)

[keithmoonhangover]

- Indeed, it's clear most of you poor dears love to gather in a circle to whet your fantasies over over Mr. Larry, sweet.

Some dears swear that Mr. Larry was undisputed, but not in the Guinness book of records. Never held more than a single belt, swapping his WBC for the newly created IBF belt that he help author in one of the shadiest deals in boxing. There were 11 WBC/IBF champions during his so called run of defenses, yet he never manned up to a single one, so his record against fellow champions is a poor 1-3, 0 KO. Finally lost the plot against Michel Spinks, the best prime HOFer he had ever faced. Threw a hissy fit to go home and sulk before beginning a year long campaign of training at his personal gym to fight Mike Tyson, baiting him at every Tyson defense. When the time came to put up or shut up, Mr. Larry shut up post haste, crucified on the canvas for the 60 count. Had he been any good he would've been in the mix with Ali, Frazier, Norton, and Foreman, but instead he got sent to the woodshed by Dwayne Bobick in the Olympic Trials and spent several years building up his fragile self esteem before getting sucked into the vacuum left after all had retired. A faded Ken Norton gave him more than he could handle, but like Foreman with Ali, no rematch for Ken.

Foreman was the better in the same years they actually did fight, not even close, and finished with a better career record in spite of getting robbed by Holyfield who was hanging on for dear life in the closing rounds, and Briggs who ran like Larry did against Butterbean. Mr. Larry had the poorest lineal claim to the title, a sick, retired Ali, since Jeffries stepped out of 6 years of retirement and 100 lbs of blubber to be whomped by Jack Johnson. Foreman was ducked during his best years by Ali and Tyson. Nobody ducked Mr. Larry who had a host of disputed decisions.

But wait, he baited Butterbean for a year. Never learning his Tyson lessons, he said some really nasty stuff, but when time to put up or shut up he ran like a bunny only to get knocked down in the 10th round by the huffing 4 round, 350 lb Bean as time was running out. What did Mr Larry do upon rising? Why he turned his back on the ref, grabbed the rope for support and rode it to the other corner as the ref chased him down. He wouldn't give Bean a sporting chance to knock him out, the poorest ever finish for a HoFer who started his induction being thrown out of the grounds. Let back in the next day, he went on a 20 min rant against his sworn enemy, Big George, who made all those hundreds of millions and all those fans that Mr. Larry thought belonged to him. Ducked the rematch with Bobick in the pros, but he's your kind of guy, so enjoy.

Big George KO all day every day over Mr. Larry. 8)

I can feel the hate from here. I'm warming my hands on it as we speak.

[man]

George Foreman didn't take 10 years out?

How would it look?
Larry dominated from 78-85, with big George out of the ring between 77-87.

Larry has taken some, often unfair, criticism for the lack of opposition in the post Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton era but with George still only 28 when he bowed out, how would the heavyweight scene have looked had he stuck around and competed with Holmes in those years?

i think larry defeats george with relative ease.
once the intimidation factor was gone after zaire,
george had to rely on power only and against a
great boxer like larry, that ain't enough. so aside
of one or two fight between them all else would
be equal.

[man]

- Indeed, it's clear most of you poor dears love to gather in a circle to whet your fantasies over over Mr. Larry, sweet.

Some dears swear that Mr. Larry was ...

...

Big George KO all day every day over Mr. Larry. 8)

i find all your points very interesting, but i
think you are overrating george, whose
subconsciousness had to come up with a
divine revelation to get him out of the misery
his career had turned into.

i think larry is too agile to be a target for
big george.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- I see lots of "I think" prefaces here with little evidence of any verifiable thinking in place.

Mr. man mentions Mr. Larry superior agility which I take to mean he could do a fair replication of a running Ali in their younger years. OK, and had they been put in training for a decathlon, you'd have soft moderns gushing over Big George's athleticism. Mr. Larry ain't the athlete here, he's a tubby overachiever, a good and game, feisty fighter in some fun slug'em ups, but nobody ever had any problems hitting him save maybe Shavers who inexplicably went crazy wild after he knocked down Holmes and blew his knockout opportunity.

BTW, a correction to Mr. Larry's title record against fellow champions, it's 1-4, zer0 KO. Spinks was LH champ when he challenged and defending heavy champ in the rematch, 1-4 hardly being the stuff of legend.

Again, Big George was vastly superior in the overlapping years they actually did fight. He also had vastly superior results to common opponents of Ali and Mr. Larry. It's all poorly supported conjecture on your part on who would win had not Foreman retired. Kinda like who could ever come up with such a silly thread had you chaps never been born? It never happened that way, but I tell you this, the Foreman who was fresh out of the 68 Olympics would've blasted out the sick Ali that Holmes fought and made it look easy, an easy what if, and oh to hear your hue and cry.

[keithmoonhangover]

- I see lots of "I think" prefaces here with little evidence of any verifiable thinking in place.

Mr. man mentions Mr. Larry superior agility which I take to mean he could do a fair replication of a running Ali in their younger years. OK, and had they been put in training for a decathlon, you'd have soft moderns gushing over Big George's athleticism. Mr. Larry ain't the athlete here, he's a tubby overachiever, a good and game, feisty fighter in some fun slug'em ups, but nobody ever had any problems hitting him save maybe Shavers who inexplicably went crazy wild after he knocked down Holmes and blew his knockout opportunity.

BTW, a correction to Mr. Larry's title record against fellow champions, it's 1-4, zer0 KO. Spinks was LH champ when he challenged and defending heavy champ in the rematch, 1-4 hardly being the stuff of legend.

Again, Big George was vastly superior in the overlapping years they actually did fight. He also had vastly superior results to common opponents of Ali and Mr. Larry. It's all poorly supported conjecture on your part on who would win had not Foreman retired. Kinda like who could ever come up with such a silly thread had you chaps never been born? It never happened that way, but I tell you this, the Foreman who was fresh out of the 68 Olympics would've blasted out the sick Ali that Holmes fought and made it look easy, an easy what if, and oh to hear your hue and cry.

In his prime, Larry Holmes didn't lose a fight. Can you say the same about Foreman?

[sweetviolenturge]

I can see this VERY unfortunately never made dream match up going two different ways & it depends on not what day it is, but what TIME of the day it is for me to give either as my answer. My mind changes constantly regarding it's outcome.
It's really not at all fair that the two men never shared a ring in combat.

Anyhow, scenario #1 has a young Holmes with fresh legs & that jab doing what Young did & what he did so well in the first Shavers fight, using movement & skill to defuse Foreman's power, frustrate him & outbox Big George en route to a decision win or late rounds stoppage.

While scenario #2 has Holmes having some early success with his jab & movement only for Foreman to begin to establish his own jab ( Holmes often had trouble with opponents who could match him jab for jab such as Norton, Witherspoon, Carl Williams, Mo Harris etc. ) & cut the ring off enough for him to land a right hand of the sort that Shavers & Snipes were able to on Holmes, dropping him. And while ( Tyson fight aside ) Holmes always got up, Foreman was an elite finisher & without having quite the same sort of defensive skills that enabled Jimmy Young to survive the seventh round of his bout with Foreman, Larry would find himself on the canvas again until he either stayed down or the ref waved things off. Foreman KO7.

What result do I see as the most likely outcome at this particular moment?
#2.