Hardest to outbox?

[man]

maybe he won it, but he definitely
didn't do so clearly.

We are talking about Sugar Ray Leonard here, the guy has better boxing skills (in my opinion) than floyd mayweather who is regarded the best defensive fighter of all time (Whitaker is better in my opinion again) and he still coudnt outbox Hagler.

SRL didn't outbox tommy hearns and
from what i can tell didn't even try.

[Tony1244]

I'd say Thomas Hearns. Anyone who won rounds against SR Leonard by outboxing him has to come in first.

Someone wrote Hagler. As great as Hagler was, it wasn't impossible to outbox him. Leonard, Hearns, Boogolo Watts, and the Worm Monroe outboxed him a bit. Granted with Hearns, it didn't last long.

[KBB]

Sam Soloman

He did a good job on busting up the Winky Wright someone mentioned in this thread, lol

[Aaronide_ger]

SRL didn't outbox tommy hearns and
from what i can tell didn't even try.

Yet he knocked him out in the end, does it matter in the end if you lose?

[Bobbyptsd]

SRL didn't outbox tommy hearns and
from what i can tell didn't even try.

Yet he knocked him out in the end, does it matter in the end if you lose?

Great point, and a valuable contribution to this thread about best finishers.

Wait.....

[Aaronide_ger]

SRL didn't outbox tommy hearns and
from what i can tell didn't even try.

Yet he knocked him out in the end, does it matter in the end if you lose?

Great point, and a valuable contribution to this thread about best finishers.

Wait.....

Now that I see it you are right, I went out of the topic here.

[Tomasino]

Floyd is something of a Rubics Cube of boxing, only difference is people can actually figure that out. I've never seen Don Curry, know next to nothing about him, other than that for a time, he was lb 4 lb number one on the planet.

I've seen you post this about a ton of fighters...don't you have an interest in seeing these fighters, like Larry Holmes, Rocky Marciano, Donald Curry, Mike McCallum etc?

[Counter-puncher]

I'd say Thomas Hearns. Anyone who won rounds against SR Leonard by outboxing him has to come in first.
.

right, nobody outboxed Hearns

[magwitch]

Floyd is something of a Rubics Cube of boxing, only difference is people can actually figure that out. I've never seen Don Curry, know next to nothing about him, other than that for a time, he was lb 4 lb number one on the planet.

I've seen you post this about a ton of fighters...don't you have an interest in seeing these fighters, like Larry Holmes, Rocky Marciano, Donald Curry, Mike McCallum etc?

I tune in to a certain website now and again, and fights of previous eras on certain tv when I can. Ask me anything about He-man or Thundercats though.

[palooka]

The young Benitez couldn't be hit never mind outboxed.

Prime Herol Graham could not be outboxed.

[man]

in general i think you cannot outbox a boxer.
you can just meet him. i do not think SRR, SRL
or ali where ever outboxed when they were close
their prime.

[Tomasino]

Floyd is something of a Rubics Cube of boxing, only difference is people can actually figure that out. I've never seen Don Curry, know next to nothing about him, other than that for a time, he was lb 4 lb number one on the planet.

I've seen you post this about a ton of fighters...don't you have an interest in seeing these fighters, like Larry Holmes, Rocky Marciano, Donald Curry, Mike McCallum etc?

I tune in to a certain website now and again, and fights of previous eras on certain tv when I can. Ask me anything about He-man or Thundercats though.

[Badhusker]

Floyd is definitely the best pure boxer that I've witnessed. It's amazing to me that in 48 fights, no one has gotten lucky and gotten through. Sugar Shane nailed him good early in that fight and buckled him twice. Maidana clipped him good in the second fight at the bell in an early round in that fight. Zab should have gotten credit for a knock down as well but that was a messy affair. You don't hear much about Floyd's chin but it's got to be good. When Floyd settles in to box, no one can touch him unfortunately. I have to admit that. Though it does help him that Bayless doesn't allow anyone to fight inside and make a messy fight of it.

The Mosley fight is a real 'what if' fight. As in, what if Mosley was in his prime? My money would have been on Sugar.

What Mosley had going for him at the time was something similar to what Cotto has going for him now, a re-surge in his career that was enough for Ring to rank him as the #2 Welter and #3pfp. Floyd was ranked as the #3 Welter and #2pfp. Mosley was good enough to cause Freddie Roach and Manny to duck him openly. Its pretty hard to KO Floyd, because he is very smart when he does get hurt, as we have seen. Mosley definitely rocked him though, but couldn't finish him....then got his ass handed to him.

[Tomasino]

Floyd is definitely the best pure boxer that I've witnessed. It's amazing to me that in 48 fights, no one has gotten lucky and gotten through. Sugar Shane nailed him good early in that fight and buckled him twice. Maidana clipped him good in the second fight at the bell in an early round in that fight. Zab should have gotten credit for a knock down as well but that was a messy affair. You don't hear much about Floyd's chin but it's got to be good. When Floyd settles in to box, no one can touch him unfortunately. I have to admit that. Though it does help him that Bayless doesn't allow anyone to fight inside and make a messy fight of it.

Jose Luis Castillo got to him. I scored it to JLC by four rounds. Floyd looked bad. He won the rematch but ran like a dog to do so.

[Badhusker]

I remember watching Floyd vs Castillo 1 & 2, and thought the first could have went either way depending on what style you liked. Floyd was fighting hurt in the first. He gave an immediate rematch and won fairly easy in the second when healthy. Ironically, judges scores the 2nd bout much closer than the first.
13 or 14 yrs ago? People will never let things go.

[koolkc107]

I remember watching Floyd vs Castillo 1 & 2, and thought the first could have went either way depending on what style you liked. Floyd was fighting hurt in the first. He gave an immediate rematch and won fairly easy in the second when healthy. Ironically, judges scores the 2nd bout much closer than the first.
13 or 14 yrs ago? People will never let things go.

I know folks like to point to the first Castillo fight, but I will ask those folks to do one thing to put it in perspective.

Watch the Castillo I fight, then watch Floyd's fights with Cotto and Maidana I.

Then come back and explain how the last two men didn't do better against Floyd than Jose Luis in the first fight.

JLC lost both fights, and rather clearly.

[Tanzio]

I remember watching Floyd vs Castillo 1 & 2, and thought the first could have went either way depending on what style you liked. Floyd was fighting hurt in the first. He gave an immediate rematch and won fairly easy in the second when healthy. Ironically, judges scores the 2nd bout much closer than the first.
13 or 14 yrs ago? People will never let things go.

I know folks like to point to the first Castillo fight, but I will ask those folks to do one thing to put it in perspective.

Watch the Castillo I fight, then watch Floyd's fights with Cotto and Maidana I.

Then come back and explain how the last two men didn't do better against Floyd than Jose Luis in the first fight.

JLC lost both fights, and rather clearly.

Vermin infested feces.

JLC won the first fight more clearly than FMJ won the second fight.

Nobody who saw it is EVER going to forget it, with the exception of FMJ apologists.

[koolkc107]

I remember watching Floyd vs Castillo 1 & 2, and thought the first could have went either way depending on what style you liked. Floyd was fighting hurt in the first. He gave an immediate rematch and won fairly easy in the second when healthy. Ironically, judges scores the 2nd bout much closer than the first.
13 or 14 yrs ago? People will never let things go.

I know folks like to point to the first Castillo fight, but I will ask those folks to do one thing to put it in perspective.

Watch the Castillo I fight, then watch Floyd's fights with Cotto and Maidana I.

Then come back and explain how the last two men didn't do better against Floyd than Jose Luis in the first fight.

JLC lost both fights, and rather clearly.

Vermin infested feces.

JLC won the first fight more clearly than FMJ won the second fight.

Nobody who saw it is EVER going to forget it, with the exception of FMJ apologists.

Saw it as it happened and many times since.

And I am still trying to figure out how folks think Castillo won that fight.

He did some things well, no doubt.

But, nowhere well enough to win.

Both Cotto and Maidana (in the first fight) did better against Floyd than Jose Luis...and Floyd won those two clearly.

[jamesmcdonnell]

maybe he won it, but he definitely
didn't do so clearly.

We are talking about Sugar Ray Leonard here, the guy has better boxing skills (in my opinion) than floyd mayweather who is regarded the best defensive fighter of all time (Whitaker is better in my opinion again) and he still coudnt outbox Hagler.

SRL didn't outbox tommy hearns and
from what i can tell didn't even try.

SRL wasn't able to outbox Tommy, the reach gave him nightmares, and Hearns' stick and move style, in the end he had to turn brawler to win, as he just couldn't score often enough to win the fight.

[stevedoc]

While not the most obvious choice frank Bruno was hard to outbox, Tyson is the only man to of been in front in a fight vs Bruno, Bruno was out boxing Lennox Lewis till he was caught

[Tanzio]

I know folks like to point to the first Castillo fight, but I will ask those folks to do one thing to put it in perspective.

Watch the Castillo I fight, then watch Floyd's fights with Cotto and Maidana I.

Then come back and explain how the last two men didn't do better against Floyd than Jose Luis in the first fight.

JLC lost both fights, and rather clearly.

Vermin infested feces.

JLC won the first fight more clearly than FMJ won the second fight.

Nobody who saw it is EVER going to forget it, with the exception of FMJ apologists.

Saw it as it happened and many times since.

And I am still trying to figure out how folks think Castillo won that fight.

He did some things well, no doubt.

But, nowhere well enough to win.

Both Cotto and Maidana (in the first fight) did better against Floyd than Jose Luis...and Floyd won those two clearly.

Everybody has an opinion.

The subject of the thread is who is / was the hardest to outbox. Competition should be taken into consideration. The Hitman, Sweet Pea, Benitez, and Monzon are on the list for me. FMJ is also on the list. Unfortunately, he has not challenged himself the way the others did in their prime. His challenges with 2nd tier talent like JLC, Maidana, Augustus and the Cotto he fought illuminate the fact that he did not fight a prime Manny, or give the top young talent a boxing lesson.

Two fights with Maidana? Two fights with JLC? Odlh way past his prime? The best boxer he ever faced 6 months removed from two weight classes below?

There are no JCCs, Hitmen, SRLs, Benitezs, Haglers, Sweet Peas, Smokin Joes, Foremans, etc., on FMJ's resume. He is great, no doubt, but what he has been GOAT at is risk aversion, not boxing.

[koolkc107]

And I would contend that much of that reputation for "risk aversion" has a bit of a "Monday Morning QB" mode of thinking attached to it.

With the exception of his most recent choice, you have had significant schools of thought pick against Floyd for the vast majority of his opponents going back to Gatti and before.

Was he mostly favored? Yes.

But with each guy, you had knowledgeable boxing pundits declaring that this next guy would be THE GUY to finally solve Mayweather.

Yet, each and every time, Floyd would win and win convincingly.

That has to count for something, and it cannot be casually dismissed simply by casting aspersions at his competition after the fact.

You say second tier, yet when you take a look a who Floyd fought and where they were ranked and what they had accomplished when Floyd fought them, his record stacks up extremely well with even those ATGs you mentioned.

And there is also the question of who ELSE Floyd could have fought and what a likely outcome would have been.

Cotto circa 2007? Even his own people didn't want the fight then, it is public record. But that Miguel did go life and death with a slightly past it Mosley. No way a fight at 147 with a prime Floyd is close. A higher weight class and maybe it is different...

"Cheato"? Well an older Floyd completely dominated Alvarez, who I would favor easily over any version of Antonio.

Pac of 2009? Yes, younger and perhaps faster than the version Floyd beat...but no where near the skill of the older version. And, of course, Mayweather is younger and faster as well. Floyd 2009 beats 2009 Pac even worse, IMO.

So no, I am not trying to come here and say definitely that Floyd is the GOAT of all time.

But, in a conversation about who is the most difficult to outbox, Mayweather's record against top tier competition cannot and should not be downplayed.

[man]

SRL wasn't able to outbox Tommy, the reach gave him nightmares, and Hearns' stick and move style, in the end he had to turn brawler to win, as he just couldn't score often enough to win the fight.

here is what i think about that fight. sugar saw
he couldn't outbox tommy so he waited until
tommy became confident enough to offer too
wide openings in his attacks. ray first got him
in the middle of the fight, but tommy survived.
ray went again into waiting, but tommy didn't
get confident enough to provide the opening
for several rounds, while be banked round after
round and made sugar's face bruised. then tommy
lost discipline again and was taken out for good.

i think tommy hearns made three very bad choices
in his career. first overconfidence in the SRL fight,
second time overconfidence in the same fight and
going toe to toe with marvin instead of boxing him.
yes, he gave us the best first round in boxing, but
at what price for himself.

had he decided differently tommy hearns could very
well be p4p ATG5. because these decision were just
that, bad decisions. his boxing abilities might have
been quite enough to defeat both sugar and marvin.
instead he got taken out twice.

yet of course in retrospect everyone is a genius and
tommy was the fighter he was because he had the
guts that he had.

[Tanzio]

And I would contend that much of that reputation for "risk aversion" has a bit of a "Monday Morning QB" mode of thinking attached to it.

With the exception of his most recent choice, you have had significant schools of thought pick against Floyd for the vast majority of his opponents going back to Gatti and before.

Was he mostly favored? Yes.

But with each guy, you had knowledgeable boxing pundits declaring that this next guy would be THE GUY to finally solve Mayweather.

Yet, each and every time, Floyd would win and win convincingly.

That has to count for something, and it cannot be casually dismissed simply by casting aspersions at his competition after the fact.

You say second tier, yet when you take a look a who Floyd fought and where they were ranked and what they had accomplished when Floyd fought them, his record stacks up extremely well with even those ATGs you mentioned.

And there is also the question of who ELSE Floyd could have fought and what a likely outcome would have been.

Cotto circa 2007? Even his own people didn't want the fight then, it is public record. But that Miguel did go life and death with a slightly past it Mosley. No way a fight at 147 with a prime Floyd is close. A higher weight class and maybe it is different...

"Cheato"? Well an older Floyd completely dominated Alvarez, who I would favor easily over any version of Antonio.

Pac of 2009? Yes, younger and perhaps faster than the version Floyd beat...but no where near the skill of the older version. And, of course, Mayweather is younger and faster as well. Floyd 2009 beats 2009 Pac even worse, IMO.

So no, I am not trying to come here and say definitely that Floyd is the GOAT of all time.

But, in a conversation about who is the most difficult to outbox, Mayweather's record against top tier competition cannot and should not be downplayed.

Monday morning quarterbacking? Not at all. I have criticized him every step of the way for his cherry picking along the way.

You (wrongly) accuse me of Monday morning quarterbacking while your defense is woulda, coulda, ifs, thens, and buts.

I have commended FMJ all along for his gifts, skill and business acumen. Part of that acumen has been putting relatively big names on his resume at opportune times and allowing his faithful to defend his decisions with blather like above.

We all have opinions. It is easy to say FMJ would have defeated the 2009 version of Pac and rationalize it with the ridiculous argument that Pac is more dangerous now. I happen to agree that FMJ most likely would have defeated Pac in 2009.

But FMJ didn't fight a prime Pac. His faithful like you will claim it does not matter. The objective among us know that Pac 2009 was a far more credible scalp than Pac 2015, anyway you slice it.

Prime Odlh defeats FMJ. Prime SSM would be the best scalp FMJ ever captured but I think Prime Shane ktfo FMJ. That is my opinion but we will never know.

IMO, FMJ would have beaten GingerHead without the catch weight, but we will never know. IMO, FMJ would defeat Thurman, Brook, Ramming Speed, Porter, Khan, Danny, etc., but (most likely) we will never know.

But hey, we get to find out if he can beat Berto. If it is 116-112 or closer, we will probably get a rematch. Wow.

FMJ has calculated every move beautifully. FMJ has not faced the best at their best.

The Hitman, SRL, Hagler, Benitez, Monzon, Sweet Pea, JCC, Ali, Smokin Joe, Duran, Bob Foster, SSM, ODLH, Tito, Bhop, etc., all did.

We don't need to rationalize whether or not SRL could have beat The Hitman in his prime or whether or not Ali could beat Foreman or Sweet Pea beat JCC.

FMJ falls short in that measurement.

[koolkc107]

And I would contend that much of that reputation for "risk aversion" has a bit of a "Monday Morning QB" mode of thinking attached to it.

With the exception of his most recent choice, you have had significant schools of thought pick against Floyd for the vast majority of his opponents going back to Gatti and before.

Was he mostly favored? Yes.

But with each guy, you had knowledgeable boxing pundits declaring that this next guy would be THE GUY to finally solve Mayweather.

Yet, each and every time, Floyd would win and win convincingly.

That has to count for something, and it cannot be casually dismissed simply by casting aspersions at his competition after the fact.

You say second tier, yet when you take a look a who Floyd fought and where they were ranked and what they had accomplished when Floyd fought them, his record stacks up extremely well with even those ATGs you mentioned.

And there is also the question of who ELSE Floyd could have fought and what a likely outcome would have been.

Cotto circa 2007? Even his own people didn't want the fight then, it is public record. But that Miguel did go life and death with a slightly past it Mosley. No way a fight at 147 with a prime Floyd is close. A higher weight class and maybe it is different...

"Cheato"? Well an older Floyd completely dominated Alvarez, who I would favor easily over any version of Antonio.

Pac of 2009? Yes, younger and perhaps faster than the version Floyd beat...but no where near the skill of the older version. And, of course, Mayweather is younger and faster as well. Floyd 2009 beats 2009 Pac even worse, IMO.

So no, I am not trying to come here and say definitely that Floyd is the GOAT of all time.

But, in a conversation about who is the most difficult to outbox, Mayweather's record against top tier competition cannot and should not be downplayed.

Monday morning quarterbacking? Not at all. I have criticized him every step of the way for his cherry picking along the way.

You (wrongly) accuse me of Monday morning quarterbacking while your defense is woulda, coulda, ifs, thens, and buts.

I have commended FMJ all along for his gifts, skill and business acumen. Part of that acumen has been putting relatively big names on his resume at opportune times and allowing his faithful to defend his decisions with blather like above.

We all have opinions. It is easy to say FMJ would have defeated the 2009 version of Pac and rationalize it with the ridiculous argument that Pac is more dangerous now. I happen to agree that FMJ most likely would have defeated Pac in 2009.

But FMJ didn't fight a prime Pac. His faithful like you will claim it does not matter. The objective among us know that Pac 2009 was a far more credible scalp than Pac 2015, anyway you slice it.

Prime Odlh defeats FMJ. Prime SSM would be the best scalp FMJ ever captured but I think Prime Shane ktfo FMJ. That is my opinion but we will never know.

IMO, FMJ would have beaten GingerHead without the catch weight, but we will never know. IMO, FMJ would defeat Thurman, Brook, Ramming Speed, Porter, Khan, Danny, etc., but (most likely) we will never know.

But hey, we get to find out if he can beat Berto. If it is 116-112 or closer, we will probably get a rematch. Wow.

FMJ has calculated every move beautifully. FMJ has not faced the best at their best.

The Hitman, SRL, Hagler, Benitez, Monzon, Sweet Pea, JCC, Ali, Smokin Joe, Duran, Bob Foster, SSM, ODLH, Tito, Bhop, etc., all did.

We don't need to rationalize whether or not SRL could have beat The Hitman in his prime or whether or not Ali could beat Foreman or Sweet Pea beat JCC.

FMJ falls short in that measurement.

Talk about blather.

And yes, you just put an exclamation point on what I mean by Monday Morning QB.

I do not agree with your take of them automatically beating Floyd (I think we will truly never know, and for good reason) but exactly when was Floyd supposed to fight a prime DLH and a prime Mosley? When he was a featherweight and DLH and Shane were light middles?

And I didn't say Pac was more dangerous now. I said he was a more skillful fighter now, enough so that the fight that happened was actually closer than the one that would have happened back in 09. And I am not merely speculating, we can make a very educated guess on that via the common experience of JMM, who fought both men at or close to prime. All the JMM fights with Pac were razor close. Floyd's fight with JMM was a clinic.

Yes, a 2009 Pac scalp would have been better than a 2015 one. But let's not act like Pac would have done any better because he would not have.

What is also clear is that some folks continue to blame Mayweather for fights that didn't happen when the truth is there was much more involved than that.

"He didn't fight Tszyu" they will argue. Like it was Floyd and not Kostya who declined the fight.

"He didn't fight Margarito" they yell. Except it was Arum's refusal to guarantee a purse with DLH after a "Cheato" fight Mayweather asked for that led to him buying out his contract, and starting the morphing process from "Pretty Boy" to "Money".

I am not saying not to criticize Mayweather.

Just tell the whole story when you do.