Hardest to outbox?

[KBB]

Floyd is definitely the best pure boxer that I've witnessed. It's amazing to me that in 48 fights, no one has gotten lucky and gotten through. Sugar Shane nailed him good early in that fight and buckled him twice. Maidana clipped him good in the second fight at the bell in an early round in that fight. Zab should have gotten credit for a knock down as well but that was a messy affair. You don't hear much about Floyd's chin but it's got to be good. When Floyd settles in to box, no one can touch him unfortunately. I have to admit that. Though it does help him that Bayless doesn't allow anyone to fight inside and make a messy fight of it.

Jose Luis Castillo got to him. I scored it to JLC by four rounds. Floyd looked bad. He won the rematch but ran like a dog to do so.

I had the same score too.

[jamesmcdonnell]

SRL wasn't able to outbox Tommy, the reach gave him nightmares, and Hearns' stick and move style, in the end he had to turn brawler to win, as he just couldn't score often enough to win the fight.

here is what i think about that fight. sugar saw
he couldn't outbox tommy so he waited until
tommy became confident enough to offer too
wide an openings in his attacks. ray first got him
in the middle of the fight, but tommy survived.
ray went again into waiting, but tommy didn't
get confident enough to provide the opening
for several rounds, while be banked round after
round and made sugar's face bruised. then tommy
lost discipline again and was taken out for good.

i think tommy hearns made three very bad choices
in his career. first overconfidence in the SRL fight,
second time overconfidence in the same fight and
going toe to toe with marvin instead of boxing him.
yes, he gave us the best first round in boxing, but
at what price for himself.

had he decided differently tommy hearns could very
well be p4p ATG5. because these decision were just
that, bad decisions. his boxing abilities might have
been quite enough to defeat both sugar and marvin.
instead he got taken out twice.

yet of course in retrospect everyone is a genius and
tommy was the fighter he was because he had the
guts that he had.

I think Tommy's problem is that he ultimately wanted to take people's heads off, he had incredible punch power, and enjoyed putting it on people. He was a master boxer, but ultimately, he was always looking to set up the power shots. I don't think he could have beaten Hagler whatever he did personally - Hagler was too durable, and was known for piling on the pressure relentlessly, even if Tommy stuck to his boxing, he'd have been ground down. At MW, Hagler was all round better than Tommy, who was probably at his best at 154, but unfortunately there wasn't much glamour in that division at the time.

[caldo2025]

maybe he won it, but he definitely
didn't do so clearly.

We are talking about Sugar Ray Leonard here, the guy has better boxing skills (in my opinion) than floyd mayweather who is regarded the best defensive fighter of all time (Whitaker is better in my opinion again) and he still coudnt outbox Hagler.[/quote]
SRL didn't outbox tommy hearns and
from what i can tell didn't even try.[/quote]

SRL wasn't able to outbox Tommy, the reach gave him nightmares, and Hearns' stick and move style, in the end he had to turn brawler to win, as he just couldn't score often enough to win the fight.[/quote]

So is the subject "Hardest to Outbox for 10 rounds"? I don't think you should get full credit for outboxing someone when you get your ass knocked out and lose the fight? The only person that ever outboxed SRL was Duran in Montreal. SRL didn't have an answer for that one. But Hearns, no. They let him dance around all night because they knew he couldn't keep up that pace. It was a matter of time.

[jamesmcdonnell]

maybe he won it, but he definitely
didn't do so clearly.

We are talking about Sugar Ray Leonard here, the guy has better boxing skills (in my opinion) than floyd mayweather who is regarded the best defensive fighter of all time (Whitaker is better in my opinion again) and he still coudnt outbox Hagler.

SRL didn't outbox tommy hearns and
from what i can tell didn't even try.[/quote]

SRL wasn't able to outbox Tommy, the reach gave him nightmares, and Hearns' stick and move style, in the end he had to turn brawler to win, as he just couldn't score often enough to win the fight.[/quote]

So is the subject "Hardest to Outbox for 10 rounds"? I don't think you should get full credit for outboxing someone when you get your ass knocked out and lose the fight? The only person that ever outboxed SRL was Duran in Montreal. SRL didn't have an answer for that one. But Hearns, no. They let him dance around all night because they knew he couldn't keep up that pace. It was a matter of time.[/quote]

I think that's rather a bridge too far, Leonard's corner were panicking, because it looked like Tommy was going to pull off the win, although Tommy was tiring, Leonard had to go looking for the KO to be certain of the win.

[Counter-puncher]

So is the subject "Hardest to Outbox for 10 rounds"? I don't think you should get full credit for outboxing someone when you get your ass knocked out and lose the fight? The only person that ever outboxed SRL was Duran in Montreal. SRL didn't have an answer for that one. But Hearns, no. They let him dance around all night because they knew he couldn't keep up that pace. It was a matter of time.

'you're blowin it son, you're blowing it'. doesn't sound to me that was part of the gameplan.......

[jezzamundo]

I remember watching Floyd vs Castillo 1 & 2, and thought the first could have went either way depending on what style you liked. Floyd was fighting hurt in the first. He gave an immediate rematch and won fairly easy in the second when healthy. Ironically, judges scores the 2nd bout much closer than the first.
13 or 14 yrs ago? People will never let things go.

I know folks like to point to the first Castillo fight, but I will ask those folks to do one thing to put it in perspective.

Watch the Castillo I fight, then watch Floyd's fights with Cotto and Maidana I.

Then come back and explain how the last two men didn't do better against Floyd than Jose Luis in the first fight.

JLC lost both fights, and rather clearly.

Having seen all three fights, I can say with confidence that Castillo did better than Maidana and much better than Cotto against Floyd. Even KBB scored the fight for Castillo and he is practically in love with Floyd (no offence meant)! I know you shouldn't score a fight with Compubox, but Castillo outlanded Floyd 203 to 157 and landed at a higher connect rate, as well as outlanding him 173 to 66 in power punches.

Mayweather won the rematch, no question, but no more convincingly than Castillo won the original.

[caldo2025]

I think that's rather a bridge too far, Leonard's corner were panicking, because it looked like Tommy was going to pull off the win, although Tommy was tiring, Leonard had to go looking for the KO to be certain of the win.

Another person trying to rewrite history. No matter which way you slice it up, one guy got knocked out and one guy got his hand raised. Whatever happened to that point in the night, is not the point. The ONLY thing that matters is what actually happened, not what could have happened or how the fight appeared to be after 10 rounds.

Did Tommy Hearns outbox SRL? No. The answer is no. Tommy Hearns lost the fight and it didn't even go to the cards because SRL was better and proved it inside 15 rounds. He was so much better that they didn't go to the cards. It was a knockout. End of story. Next.

[man]

The only person that ever outboxed SRL was Duran in Montreal.

i see that very differently. duran did not
outbox leonard, he went toe to toe with
him as he, roberto, loved to do. when ray
came out boxing in the second fight things
looked differently.

[man]

I think that's rather a bridge too far, Leonard's corner were panicking, because it looked like Tommy was going to pull off the win, although Tommy was tiring, Leonard had to go looking for the KO to be certain of the win.

Another person trying to rewrite history. No matter which way you slice it up, one guy got knocked out and one guy got his hand raised. Whatever happened to that point in the night, is not the point. The ONLY thing that matters is what actually happened, not what could have happened or how the fight appeared to be after 10 rounds.

Did Tommy Hearns outbox SRL? No. The answer is no. Tommy Hearns lost the fight and it didn't even go to the cards because SRL was better and proved it inside 15 rounds. He was so much better that they didn't go to the cards. It was a knockout. End of story. Next.

"you're blown it, son, you're blown' it."
i guess angelo dundee was actually writing
this part of boxing history. these were among
the most famous words ever recorded in a
boxing corner and they leave no doubt on
what angelo believed. tommy hearns was
5 minutes away of winning a UD and keeping
his "0". i never heard anyone doubt this.

and SRL came as close as ever to be outboxed
in this fight. though i think this is the wrong
reading of the bout. ray intentionally went on
the back foot to get tommy overconfident &
providing more openings.

it was tactically one of the best fights ever in
boxing history. and i for one do not think it
was leg massage or too little weight, it was
overconfident boxing that did cost tommy that
fight. he simply fell into the trap ray prepared
round after round, driving his corner crazy in
the process.

[man]

I think Tommy's problem is that he ultimately wanted to take people's heads off, he had incredible punch power, and enjoyed putting it on people. He was a master boxer, but ultimately, he was always looking to set up the power shots. I don't think he could have beaten Hagler whatever he did personally - Hagler was too durable, and was known for piling on the pressure relentlessly, even if Tommy stuck to his boxing, he'd have been ground down. At MW, Hagler was all round better than Tommy, who was probably at his best at 154, but unfortunately there wasn't much glamour in that division at the time.

i think tommy could have won easy against
sugar, once ray decided to lay a trap. marvin
is a different story. i for one believe hagler
at MW as as unbeatable as a boxer can get.

but it would have been at least way more
competitive had tommy chosen to dance.
but that made him exciting, in the end he
was a fighter and not a tactician.

against sugar i think he had deserved an
immediate rematch.

[dempseyfire]

One thing that should be remembered is Floyd has never fought a boxer like Curry.

Who are the best "boxers" Floyd has defeated? A washed-up Oscar and a blown-up Marquez? Judah was actually outboxing him; Floyd got the upper hand when he decided to walk Judah down.

What boxers were there?

Well to be fair there were not many slick boxers at 130-147 in the era he competed in. But look at when he did . . .Augustus, Corley, and those are middle tier fighers . . he did not look his usual self. He got tagged a lot and got his face busted up. I do not think Floyd was in any hurry to fight Stevie Johnston, Joel Casamayor, or Paul Williams either.

[jamesmcdonnell]

One thing that should be remembered is Floyd has never fought a boxer like Curry.

Who are the best "boxers" Floyd has defeated? A washed-up Oscar and a blown-up Marquez? Judah was actually outboxing him; Floyd got the upper hand when he decided to walk Judah down.

What boxers were there?

Well to be fair there were not many slick boxers at 130-147 in the era he competed in. But look at when he did . . .Augustus, Corley, and those are middle tier fighers . . he did not look his usual self. He got tagged a lot and got his face busted up. I do not think Floyd was in any hurry to fight Stevie Johnston, Joel Casamayor, or Paul Williams either.

Don Curry, now there was a guy who was a beast during his brief prime, fast, accurate, deadly - I think Floyd was fortunate that WW wasn't stacked with talent during his reign. I'd have picked Oscar or Shane over him in their primes, and I think there's quite a few WW's of the last 30 years who would have been favourite, including Hearns and SRL of course.

[caldo2025]

"you're blown it, son, you're blown' it."
i guess angelo dundee was actually writing
this part of boxing history. these were among
the most famous words ever recorded in a
boxing corner and they leave no doubt on
what angelo believed. tommy hearns was
5 minutes away of winning a UD and keeping
his "0". i never heard anyone doubt this.

and SRL came as close as ever to be outboxed
in this fight. though i think this is the wrong
reading of the bout. ray intentionally went on
the back foot to get tommy overconfident &
providing more openings.

it was tactically one of the best fights ever in
boxing history. and i for one do not think it
was leg massage or too little weight, it was
overconfident boxing that did cost tommy that
fight. he simply fell into the trap ray prepared
round after round, driving his corner crazy in
the process.

So why do we even watch the end of fights? By the sounds of it, you have Hearn's winning the fight and out boxing Ray even though he got knocked out. Meldrick Taylor beat Julio Caesar Chavez, Andy Lee should give back his belt because he knocked out 3 of his last 4 opponents while clearly being down on points in the fight. Great fighters have off nights and on those nights they don't have it, they will out a victory. If they need a knockout and they get it, then they should be given ALL of the credit. Not the person that couldn't get it done.

Tommy Hearns fought at a pace and a distance all night that he couldn't maintain for 15 rounds. Ray broke through slowly and everything that he did in those earlier rounds that he lost contributed to the final outcome. Not saying it was Ray's plan to get a last minute knockout but he did it and he finished Hearns off when he had to.

I don't care which way you slice it up. Ray Leonard deserves all of the accolades for this courageous victory. It was an amazing fight between two warriors but Ray did what he had to do and took it from Tommy.

[Badhusker]

Interesting article with a lot of different perspectives as well as some predictions in 1981 before Hearns vs Leonard.

http://www.nytimes.com/1981/09/14/sport ... onard.html

[KBB]

Floyd has already proven he's the hardest to outbox
Hearns, when he just boxed he was a handful
Ward
Pep
SRL
Hopkins back when he just boxed

[man]

So why do we even watch the end of fights?

because this is a thread about who was
hardest to outbox, not on who was hardest
to defeat.

[caldo2025]

So why do we even watch the end of fights?

because this is a thread about who was
hardest to outbox, not on who was hardest
to defeat.

So it should be "Hardest to outbox; you don't have to win to be considered" then?

[man]

So why do we even watch the end of fights?

because this is a thread about who was
hardest to outbox, not on who was hardest
to defeat.

So it should be "Hardest to outbox; you don't have to win to be considered" then?

is someone playing dumb here, just a little?