Groves disputes decision

[freddydoesdallas]

I've got absolutely nothing to back this up but my opinion on groves/booth is the inflated ego after froch 1 led to him being more demanding with booth and wanting more for less. Booth told him to stick it.

Groves is definitely at a tough junction in his career. He doesn't seem to take any blame for any defeats and adapt his game. Froch 1, he thinks he was winning and early stoppage. Froch 2, he was winning and just got caught. Jack, he thinks he won.

He needs to start afresh in the new year under the radar if possible

[Boxerbeetle]

I've got absolutely nothing to back this up but my opinion on groves/booth is the inflated ego after froch 1 led to him being more demanding with booth and wanting more for less. Booth told him to stick it.

Groves is definitely at a tough junction in his career. He doesn't seem to take any blame for any defeats and adapt his game. Froch 1, he thinks he was winning and early stoppage. Froch 2, he was winning and just got caught. Jack, he thinks he won.

He needs to start afresh in the new year under the radar if possible

Pretty sure Groves & Booth split up before Froch 1 mate (actually, they split during the build-up if I remember correctly).

[whiskey]

I think his vulnerability is more worrying than his stamina.

He is decked in the gym, he is buzzed and dropped in fights - and was even knocked out training with the army a couple of months ago. He must be concussed or dropped on an annual basis for several years now.

Do you guys know much about the science of "concussion" ?

The research is all out there, with many write-ups by leading brain surgeons and experts. But basically you are up to three times more likely to suffer concussion if you have been concussed before, especially in the previous year.

The chemical changes in the brain continue for many many months, even years after a knockout.

The scientists describe how the brain and the muscles inside the brain that control the flow of blood, release all sorts of chemicals to protect from damage and keep functioning at the moment that trauma impacts.

The cells that release those chemicals are depleted, so if another blow is received soon after the first blow - then there are no chemicals to counter the effect of the brain being short-circuited by heavy trauma. That second blow could come during the same round of the fight - or it could come weeks or months later.

A person suffering the effects of concussion often suffer moments of confusion, have poor attentiveness (struggle to follow instructions or listen properly) and have slower reflexes than usual.

In addition, they can suffer personality issues - becoming overly emotional and not rational. Which was also evident when he stormed out of the ring, and checked out of the MGM grand hotel before the post-fight press conference had even finished.

[danconnollyeire]

Ditching Booth was the worst move of his career. After flooring Froch, Booth would've banged on about fighting smartly. He would've been much more measured against Jack too

[freddydoesdallas]

I've got absolutely nothing to back this up but my opinion on groves/booth is the inflated ego after froch 1 led to him being more demanding with booth and wanting more for less. Booth told him to stick it.

Groves is definitely at a tough junction in his career. He doesn't seem to take any blame for any defeats and adapt his game. Froch 1, he thinks he was winning and early stoppage. Froch 2, he was winning and just got caught. Jack, he thinks he won.

He needs to start afresh in the new year under the radar if possible

Pretty sure Groves & Booth split up before Froch 1 mate (actually, they split during the build-up if I remember correctly).

Like i said, i have nothing to back up my crazy ideas!

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think his vulnerability is more worrying than his stamina.

He is decked in the gym, he is buzzed and dropped in fights - and was even knocked out training with the army a couple of months ago. He must be concussed or dropped on an annual basis for several years now.

Do you guys know much about the science of "concussion" ?

The research is all out there, with many write-ups by leading brain surgeons and experts. But basically you are up to three times more likely to suffer concussion if you have been concussed before, especially in the previous year.

The chemical changes in the brain continue for many many months, even years after a knockout.

The scientists describe how the brain and the muscles inside the brain that control the flow of blood, release all sorts of chemicals to protect from damage and keep functioning at the moment that trauma impacts.

The cells that release those chemicals are depleted, so if another blow is received soon after the first blow - then there are no chemicals to counter the effect of the brain being short-circuited by heavy trauma. That second blow could come during the same round of the fight - or it could come weeks or months later.

A person suffering the effects of concussion often suffer moments of confusion, have poor attentiveness (struggle to follow instructions or listen properly) and have slower reflexes than usual.

In addition, they can suffer personality issues - becoming overly emotional and not rational. Which was also evident when he stormed out of the ring, and checked out of the MGM grand hotel before the post-fight press conference had even finished.

Interesting.

One point however, there are no muscle tissues in the brain.

[whiskey]

I think his vulnerability is more worrying than his stamina.

He is decked in the gym, he is buzzed and dropped in fights - and was even knocked out training with the army a couple of months ago. He must be concussed or dropped on an annual basis for several years now.

Do you guys know much about the science of "concussion" ?

The research is all out there, with many write-ups by leading brain surgeons and experts. But basically you are up to three times more likely to suffer concussion if you have been concussed before, especially in the previous year.

The chemical changes in the brain continue for many many months, even years after a knockout.

The scientists describe how the brain and the muscles inside the brain that control the flow of blood, release all sorts of chemicals to protect from damage and keep functioning at the moment that trauma impacts.

The cells that release those chemicals are depleted, so if another blow is received soon after the first blow - then there are no chemicals to counter the effect of the brain being short-circuited by heavy trauma. That second blow could come during the same round of the fight - or it could come weeks or months later.

A person suffering the effects of concussion often suffer moments of confusion, have poor attentiveness (struggle to follow instructions or listen properly) and have slower reflexes than usual.

In addition, they can suffer personality issues - becoming overly emotional and not rational. Which was also evident when he stormed out of the ring, and checked out of the MGM grand hotel before the post-fight press conference had even finished.

Interesting.

One point however, there are no muscle tissues in the brain.

Some info :-

http://scienceline.org/2008/04/ask-heger-concussion/

I wonder if he will have a genuine rest, or will pride / denial and money see him get straight back in the ring again, and possibly see him suffer a further set-back against an opponent his old self would have likely beaten.

[THEBUTCH]

That was a very close fight in my view and thought Groves deserved the nod, but totally accept the decision of the judges. It could have been a lopsided win too on the cards, and again you should accept it because it was a very subjective fight.

What I didn't think was good, was Georges' reaction to the decision. It seems pretty clear the disappointment was just too much to cope with. Shame, because he showed tremendous guts. and he's taken part in another absorbing title fight. He takes part in good fights.

Jack boxed with real composure and good luck to the guy.

A lot's made of Groves' durability and how he takes a punch (or doesn't) but the record shows only 2 stoppage defeats to an all time British great who has knockout punch power at the highest level. Like Tyson Fury, I think it's the defence that's the real issue, but like Tyson Fury, Groves is in entertaining fights.

Sometimes it's not your night, and last Saturday's clearly wasn't Groves'. I hope he can come back.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Ah, they meant the muscles around the blood vessels - which is slightly misleading, as they don't exist in the brain. The blood vessels themselves have a muscle layer built in. Anyway, I'm nitpicking.

It's an interesting article.

[THEBUTCH]

One other thing. Fitzpatrick may, or may not, be a more suitable trainer for George than Adam Booth, but Booth was not in Groves' corner for the toughest fights of his career....Froch, Froch 2, Jack. (Accept Degale, Smith, Anderson...but these were not at world level )

[johnswan1]

I think Paddy the Hat might be getting more criticism than he deserves. The advice in the corner sounded right to me, I know Barry Jones commented on the BN broadcast that it was maybe too much advice, and maybe it would be for some but Groves is a reasonably smart guy. The problem seems to be a lack of tactics or adjustments in the fight, something Booth excels at. I get the impression that Groves is a bit of a control freak himself and that might be part of why he fell out with Booth. It seems he thinks he can do it all himself - self-managed, too active in promotions, representing himself on legal issues, tactics, training, handing out gingerbread men etc.

[Ricky_]

Wasn't close imo, Jack was a decisive winner.

[stujones]

After the second Froch fight he was still asking about a third bout and still telling people how he was winning the first fight and was controlling the second fight until getting hit with a lucky punch...

I don't think he ever called it a lucky punch.... but I largely agree with what he says. He was winning the first fight and he was gaining a control of the 2nd fight before being caught.

Disputing the 2nd fight would be him saying "the ref should have counted I would have got up". I don't see what is wrong with saying "I was doing well, got caught with a shot that I shouldn't have - won't happen again" - that's not being disrespectful to Carl IMO, that is just some strong self belief - which is fine.

He said he would like to fight Froch again and he still believed he could beat him. His tone was very different to the end of the first fight in which he really pressured the public and Carl into the rematch. He knew any 3rd fight would have to be a voluntary (and I am not talking about sanctioning bodies here) for Carl. However, he did always state that the 3rd fight would be Carl's call and perfectly understandable if he said no..... he hasn't called Carl a wimp for retiring without a 3rd fight or claiming any unfinished business.

Not everyone is going to be like Richie Woodhall vs Glenn Catley and admit defeat.

Those words just show how utterly deluded he is. He wanted a 3rd fight? Jeez, give it a rest George I'm sick of hearing his whining. Both Froch fights were very close, it's not like he had a shut-out on the cards and then got caught with one lucky punch is it. He was nicking the first fight and Froch was up on a couple of cards in the second fight.

He was NOT gaining control of the second fight, how can anyone even think that? He went ragged and tired again and got caught with bombs again. In both fights Froch was coming on strong into the championship rounds and got rid of his man. For me Groves now just becomes an opponent, an away fighter picking up dough and might pull off the odd interesting upset like Andy Lee, the second bit only if he gets rid of that twattish trainer and goes back to someone with a top level pedigree.

Maybe he is deluded, but I'll respect a fighter who even after getting KTFO'd wanted to take on the man again. If he in his 40's trying to rediscover past glories then, yes I would say "now come on, you just aint good enough anymore" - but Groves is in the peak (in terms of age) of his career - better to go into this game with belief than not. Everyone admired Ali for his self-belief in taking on a man who had KTFO of two fighters who had beaten him - yes, they called him deluded but it was an admirable quality - but for Groves he is just a twat it would seem with many.

I'll disagree on the second fight. I'm not saying George is a good 12 round fighter - he also faded vs Degale (after a very clear lead he build up). However, in the second Froch fight for me he started slowly and was building a momentum. He won (on my card) the two rounds prior to the KO and was looking far less ragged than he did at the same stage in fight 1. Whereas in fight 1 the tide was turning (although the stoppage was still awful) in fight 2 that KO came out of the blue.

[revporl]

I personally think leaving booth ruined his career

That. He's nowhere near as good as he was, doesn't seem as dangerous and is a lot more predictable.

[mickey1975]

One other thing. Fitzpatrick may, or may not, be a more suitable trainer for George than Adam Booth, but Booth was not in Groves' corner for the toughest fights of his career....Froch, Froch 2, Jack. (Accept Degale, Smith, Anderson...but these were not at world level )

Are you trying to say Paul Smith isn't world class? Needs a break, he's a very wealthy young man and rushed back too soon after the Froch loss which must have been phycollogicaly devastating. It's his own fault. He set himself up for a huge fall that night.

[danamba7]

I personally think leaving booth ruined his career

That. He's nowhere near as good as he was, doesn't seem as dangerous and is a lot more predictable.

He used to move and punch like a mini David Haye. Now he seems almost feather-fisted and nowhere near as smooth. Strange.

[broomy7s]

Lost by a few rounds for me. I thought it was a terrible performance tbh, I really don't rate Jack either, thought he was quite 1 paced and some of the later rounds could've done a lot more. I was a Groves fan before he fought Froch and thought he looked a talent, he really needs to go back to Booth if he has anymore ambitions at world level.

[arlovski]

I think his vulnerability is more worrying than his stamina.

He is decked in the gym, he is buzzed and dropped in fights - and was even knocked out training with the army a couple of months ago. He must be concussed or dropped on an annual basis for several years now.

Do you guys know much about the science of "concussion" ?

The research is all out there, with many write-ups by leading brain surgeons and experts. But basically you are up to three times more likely to suffer concussion if you have been concussed before, especially in the previous year.

The chemical changes in the brain continue for many many months, even years after a knockout.

The scientists describe how the brain and the muscles inside the brain that control the flow of blood, release all sorts of chemicals to protect from damage and keep functioning at the moment that trauma impacts.

The cells that release those chemicals are depleted, so if another blow is received soon after the first blow - then there are no chemicals to counter the effect of the brain being short-circuited by heavy trauma. That second blow could come during the same round of the fight - or it could come weeks or months later.

A person suffering the effects of concussion often suffer moments of confusion, have poor attentiveness (struggle to follow instructions or listen properly) and have slower reflexes than usual.

In addition, they can suffer personality issues - becoming overly emotional and not rational. Which was also evident when he stormed out of the ring, and checked out of the MGM grand hotel before the post-fight press conference had even finished.

Great post, cheers. Always wondered about the science behind fighters seemingly losing punch resistance after KO losses.

I've read some very interesting interviews/articles with MMA fighters+coaches about their changing approaches to sparring; really limiting the heavy stuff due to the factors you mention, and focusing much more on 'live' drilling and technique style sparring, rather than round after round of open 'fight' style work.
Does anyone know of any prominent boxers/gyms that use a similar approach?

[mickey1975]

Spud knows what went on, he kicked George out of the gym. It sounded very personal.

[MrJasonM]

I am a big fan of Groves.

I find him quite affable and especially in the first fight, I thought it was amazing how he got under Froch's skin and really beat him psychologically.

However those two losses have in my opinion, definitely taken something away from him. Whether it be physical or mental.

Different fighters peak at different ages, and although generally speaking George is at the prime age of 27, I think he has peaked and is now on the downward spiral.

Maybe I am being a bit harsh on Fitzpatrick here but I feel like the reason Groves performed so well in that first fight against Froch was that he went in with Adam Booth's tactics. If you watch interviews with Booth and Groves before that fight they both state that they know how to beat Froch. Even after they split Booth kept saying Groves knows what to do to beat Froch. Hence why he looked so impressive for the first half of the fight.

If I was Groves I would try and partner up with Booth again, if that is at all possible, as that is when he looked at his best. I would take the rest of the year off, and go again down the European route and try and get back into a world title position. The DeGale fight is still there but just a little bit further away, especially if Groves isnt willing to compromise his purse.

[mullenman]

Groves needs to take this defeat like a man and make some changes

Ever since George left Adam booth he has not looked good

George is not near the same level fighter as he was

mammys boy had him trouble in a stay bust fight

Rebrasse was a good close fight and callum smith just destroyed him

Degale is now two leagues above him,,

Groves should either fight AA or hope buglionii wins and fight him because if he loses again his career is in trouble

[TheCobra]

I think Paddy the Hat might be getting more criticism than he deserves. The advice in the corner sounded right to me, I know Barry Jones commented on the BN broadcast that it was maybe too much advice, and maybe it would be for some but Groves is a reasonably smart guy. The problem seems to be a lack of tactics or adjustments in the fight, something Booth excels at. I get the impression that Groves is a bit of a control freak himself and that might be part of why he fell out with Booth. It seems he thinks he can do it all himself - self-managed, too active in promotions, representing himself on legal issues, tactics, training, handing out gingerbread men etc.

Agree on this, and for that part I think Paddy is much more willing to go along with George whereas I can see that Booth needs to have that authority over his fighters, where they do what he tells them and trust in his gameplans. George is really outspoken so would probably have been challenging Booth left, right and centre on gameplans and what was the right training/tactics etc etc.

In Paddy I guess he's found someone who he is the 'star' with, Paddy is basically unproven and a nobody at world level boxing, so is probably just grateful to be there and getting paid for it, so I am sure George gets much more of his own way, but at what cost? I think we are all seeing the cost in his recent performances and loss of composed style he had under Booth.

Only my thoughts based on how George conducts himself generally, maybe harsh but probably a ring of truth in it.

[samwbr]

He sounds punchy since the Froch fights, his voice has changed quite noticeably.

[palooka]

I'm a fan but think he's just not durable enough to become a world champion, he has receded and DeGale would take him now, pretty easily. He was a hell of a puncher at the weight a few years ago.

[punchers chance]

it was a close fight overall and a subjective one to score so you could make an argument for a 1 or 2 round Groves win, but you can't expect to go Las Vegas as an away fighter and expect to nick a contest with such a low punch output.

Groves did nowhere near enough to back up his claims that he won the fight clearly.

I agree with the general sentiment that he was very disappointing and looks to be on the downgrade.

Gomez could be onto something with his theory.