The 49-0 record... and Floyd

[johnswan1]

The repeated references by everybody, including media to the 49-0 record is ridiculous. When they talk about that "record" they should only do it when talking about heavies given there have been at least a few top fighters out there who got to 50-0 and beyond, but rarely (if ever) heavies.

Look at Chavez for example, he was 87-0 going into his fight with a prime Whitaker, which he drew. I give him far more credit for taking on another all time great opponent in Whitaker than I would for retiring before that fight in order to preserve his 87-0 record. Chavez probably could have got to 100-0 if he had taken on Berto level opponents or refusing to fight other greats until he knew he was a lot closer to his prime than they were.

Floyd's problem is that he could have made a real case for being "TBE" if he hadn't been so risk adverse. IMO the win against Castillo in their first fight ended up hindering his potential for greatness given his move towards being more risk adverse both in the ring and in his opponent selection in order to preserve the "0".

The aggressive Floyd at lower weights who was still making a name for himself was an incredible and exciting fighter. It's a shame he didn't either stay at a lower weight where he could continue to fight like that or at least incorporate a bit more of that into his style. If he had done that he could have stopped many of the opponents he outpointed over the past ten years or so. With Floyd you always get the feeling he is operating in the lowest possible gear he needs to.

Give more credit to the man who continues to challenge himself until his "0" gets taken, rather than somebody who take less risks in order for them to retire with it still intact.

[ALI]

The repeated references by everybody, including media to the 49-0 record is ridiculous. When they talk about that "record" they should only do it when talking about heavies given there have been at least a few top fighters out there who got to 50-0 and beyond, but rarely (if ever) heavies.

Look at Chavez for example, he was 87-0 going into his fight with a prime Whitaker, which he drew. I give him far more credit for taking on another all time great opponent in Whitaker than I would for retiring before that fight in order to preserve his 87-0 record. Chavez probably could have got to 100-0 if he had taken on Berto level opponents or refusing to fight other greats until he knew he was a lot closer to his prime than they were.

Floyd's problem is that he could have made a real case for being "TBE" if he hadn't been so risk adverse. IMO the win against Castillo in their first fight ended up hindering his potential for greatness given his move towards being more risk adverse both in the ring and in his opponent selection in order to preserve the "0".



The aggressive Floyd at lower weights who was still making a name for himself was an incredible and exciting fighter. It's a shame he didn't either stay at a lower weight where he could continue to fight like that or at least incorporate a bit more of that into his style. If he had done that he could have stopped many of the opponents he outpointed over the past ten years or so. With Floyd you always get the feeling he is operating in the lowest possible gear he needs to.

Had he fought the right oponents at the right times and won, his claim to being TBE would carry a lot of weight, but to much dodging and cherry picking can never see him elevated to that status. If you dont take on all comers its curtains on that claim.

His unbeaten record clearly wipes the floor with Calzaghe's D

[stujones]

I know what you two both are saying, but I think Johns post in particularly makes it sound like he avoided the best at all times. I disagree with that. Yeah, he could have fought more of the best but its not like his record is full of bums of the month style fighters. Even Berto, probably his weakest opponent in years (possibly weakest since he became a world champion) was a former world champion and decent operator (albeit hardly P4P material) - if that was Kell Brook fighting Berto we'd be chuffed.

Let's not forget after Castillo, who did he fight immediately after - Castillo.

[Coco]

JCC fought many Berto types too and also kept a busy with non title fights which bulked up his unbeaten record.
In recent fights, PBF gave weight away to Canelo who was regarded as the next big thing and is still p4p top 10. Canelo barely won a round, neither to Pac or JMM for that matter.
Also PBF never lost to Frankie Randall.

[bripez]

I agree (in the context that Mayweather wants to be remembered as an all time great and not just a great boxer).

To be honest, I am just not that bothered - I wouldn't really watch a Mayweather fight and the problem for Floyd is that a lot of people seem to think the same which is a shame.

Look at all other other boxers who are considered "greats" - they have all been beaten at one time or another. In fact, (for me anyway) a sign of a great is how they come back from defeat.

Floyd is going to be a long time retired and people are already sick of him going on about how great he is - I can only see this situation increasing over the next 30 years or so !

[stujones]

JCC fought many Berto types too and also kept a busy with non title fights which bulked up his unbeaten record.
In recent fights, PBF gave weight away to Canelo who was regarded as the next big thing and is still p4p top 10. Canelo barely won a round, neither to Pac or JMM for that matter.
Also PBF never lost to Frankie Randall.

Excellent point. I avoided it because I risk being ridiculed - but how much worse is Berto than Randall? Yeah he is worse, but Randall was hardly Sugar Ray Robinson - a very good world level fighter yes, but JCC was a defeat waiting to happen since Taylor 1 IMO, but look at how many non title fights he took between Taylor 1 and Randall.

[Boxerbeetle]

I agree it's a load of nonsense. If Robinson, Leonard, Hearns, Duran etc all had the same 49 fights, what do we think their record would be? I'd say it's pretty likely they'd all get to 49-0 as well.

[johnswan1]

Good points, but my point is that a "great" fighter, especially a self proclaimed "TBE" should not be ducking opponents. Three opponents who many felt would ask serious questions of Floyd were blatantly ducked - Williams, Margarito & Pacman. Both Williams and Margarito were bending over backwards to get a Floyd fight, while I blame Manny and Arum just as much as Floyd for their fight not happening years earlier. Even at the end, why choose Berto over one of the last three semi-credible opponents in Khan, Thurman, Brook, each of whom would have offered something different and fresh. Berto was no more proven than any of those.

Although Chavez among others (mostly old timers i.e. early 90's and years prior) did have records padded with inferior opponents, this is more a reflection of the times when top fighters were having a lot more outings. E.g. Chavez had 5 fights in each of 90/91 and 6 in each of 92/93, as opposed to a desire to avoid opponents.

Nowadays the elite are out twice or three times a year, so if you're going to be out so infrequently the fights really need to count when they happen and you have plenty of time for a full camp. Most guys will have a prime of 3-5 years so why waste it.

In future I have no doubt that history will be kinder to Floyd than many of us are now, but ducking the above three names and fighting too defensively against guys he should have stopped if he was more aggressive for me prevent him from being as great as he would like us to believe.

As for the three named above - with hindsight I don't think Margarito would have laid a finger on him and would have been made to look a lot more crude than Canelo was. It would probably at the time have been considered his career highlight performance. In 2009 I'd have comfortably picked that version of Pac to beat Floyd, but I'm not so sure any more and would now made Floyd favourite. Williams would have been a very tough fight for Floyd with his height and reach advantages along with his activity rate and I don't see how Floyd would have won that one (Williams was no Hearns but I think he would have outworked and outlanded Floyd throughout).

[Ricky_]

I don't think that many people really take the whole TBE thing seriously tbh. It's more for casual fans, and even they seem to scoff at the idea because they think Tyson was better.

Boxing fans with a bit more knowledge recognise Floyd as a fighter without a single win against an ATG fighter in their prime.

He looked truly great in his best performances which came against Coralles and Gatti, whom Floyd himself described as C-level fighters. A direct comparison; SRL makes Floyd look like a mini Hopkins, and old man who's ring IQ and spoiling tactics got him unanimous decisions in a weight class above where he was best.

[stujones]

I agree it's a load of nonsense. If Robinson, Leonard, Hearns, Duran etc all had the same 49 fights, what do we think their record would be? I'd say it's pretty likely they'd all get to 49-0 as well.

Hearns and Duran lost to fighters who were a lot worse than many of Floyd victims.

Cannot make a direct comparison as Hearns is a lot bigger than Floyd - but a Light Middle equivalent of Iran Barkley wouldn't have laid a glove on Floyd and Kirklaind Laing wouldn't have beaten Floyd. I'm not convinced Kirklaind Laing would have beaten Berto.

Again as the point Coco raises - how many of Duran's record at Lightweight were non title fights against fighters who the BBBoC would have prohibited from fighting as it would have been a mismatch.

[blanca]

I agree it's a load of nonsense. If Robinson, Leonard, Hearns, Duran etc all had the same 49 fights, what do we think their record would be? I'd say it's pretty likely they'd all get to 49-0 as well.

Hearns and Duran lost to fighters who were a lot worse than many of Floyd victims.

Cannot make a direct comparison as Hearns is a lot bigger than Floyd - but a Light Middle equivalent of Iran Barkley wouldn't have laid a glove on Floyd and Kirklaind Laing wouldn't have beaten Floyd. I'm not convinced Kirklaind Laing would have beaten Berto.

Again as the point Coco raises - how many of Duran's record at Lightweight were non title fights against fighters who the BBBoC would have prohibited from fighting as it would have been a mismatch.

Given whenever anyone tried hit floyd he curled into a ball like a hedgehog and got away with holding then no wonder he was unbeaten. The other guys u mentioned stood and fought like men

[stujones]

So it is now the way he beat fighters that is problem.

The art of boxing it to hit and not be hit IMO.

[johnswan1]

So it is now the way he beat fighters that is problem.

The art of boxing it to hit and not be hit IMO.

True, but in Floyd's case there isn't a lot of artistic beauty in seeing a highly talented fighter on his bike backpedaling for twelve rounds stealing rounds and taking no risks whatsoever against inferior fighters.

I can't blame him for doing it in a financial sense as he has still managed to be the highest earner in the sport by protecting the "0" at all costs and fabricating a character so unlikeable that people will continue to pay in the hope that the next guy might beat him.

I sense that the whole "TBE" thing started off as a troll to the public to keep people tuning in to try see him get beat, but I think over time Floyd has probably began to believe it himself, probably due to spending too much time with the likes of the mindless hangers on in "TMT" who continually shout it through the ring introductions.

[stujones]

I know what your getting at John, there is some frustration and I can agree. However, I do think his opponents get over analysed a bit too much.

You've mentioned Margarito, Williams and a Prime Pac Man - Okay, completely agree with a prime Pac Man - but (and I've said this many times) - Margarito? Well if we are saying Margarito, why not say Daniel Santos, Paul Williams? If we are saying Paul Williams, then why not Carlos Quintana? Neither of whom were the #1 Welters in the division at any time. Now if you would have said Kostya Tszyu or Winky Wright then I would be more inclined to agree. Kostya Tszyu would undisputed number #1 Light Welter at Floyd's time at the weight and its a bit of a toss up if you want to go for Winky of DLH (at the time of the DLH vs Floyd fight) for the #1 Light Middle.

I think had he fought and beaten either Williams or Margarito at the time of their Welterweight reign - Williams would have been labelled "too green" (as he was vs Quintana), Margarito would have been labelled - not proven enough. I don't see enough "gaps" in the Floyd resume where I can "oh yes, Margarito undisputedly more worthy than him".... also taking to account everyone is surely entitled to a slightly easier one every now and again - beaten 2006-2010 he fought - Judah, Baldomir (might not be the best, but was #1 at the time), DLH, Hatton, JMM, Mosley - every one of those I feel is as worthy as fighters who were losing to the likes of Santos and Quintana - even if some were not at their optimum weight when they fought.

Also, to be fair, perhaps Williams vs Floyd might have happened had it not for been for Williams' accident - you can never tell and for me, it was looking like the best was yet to come for Williams - great win in hindsight over Lara.

Completely agree re Pacquiao.

To be honest, I will not scoff at any suggestion that Floyd is TBE. For me, you cannot compare era's and yes, Floyd's career has some frustrating points - but again you only need to look at his 2006-2010 opponents to see it wasn't all bum of the month. However, the way in which he handles these highly credible fighters - his ring craft and all around ability - for me he has to be right up there with some of the finest of all time.

I'm a huge SRL fan and used to champion him to the hilt in such debates about the G.O.A.T - However, seeing Floyd fight - I'm not talking about his resume her, just seeing the man in action. I think I would find it hard to make a case for Leonard now.

[johnswan1]

Some good points Stu - I agree these two were beaten by far lesser fighters than Floyd but at the time they were feared and posed distinctive threats style wise to Floyd.

Look at it like this. After Floyd beat Hatton in 2007 he was the Welter champ. Ring rankings were no.1 Cotto, no.2 Williams, no.3 Mosley, no.4 Margarito. All credible opponents. Cotto was also P4P no.7.

What did Floyd do? He retired! He didn't fight Mosley until 2010 and Cotto in 2012, long after he had already taken severe beatings of Margarito and Pacman.

End of 2008. Margarito was no.1 (no.6 P4P), Cotto was no.2. (no.8 P4P). What did Floyd do? He came back against Marquez who was the Lightweight champion stepping up two weight divisions!

End of 2009. Pacman was no.1 (no.1 P4P), Mosley was no.2 (no.3 P4P). Credit to Floyd here, he fought and beat Mosley. Was Mosley really that good at the time or did the win over Margarito mask the fact that the attributes he once had that he could trouble Floyd with were long gone?

It goes on from there. Martinez was the Light Middle champ at the time but Floyd wanted none of him either. Meanwhile Pacman was beating up all the guys seen as Floyd's biggest threats - primarily Margarito & Cotto.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I know what your getting at John, there is some frustration and I can agree. However, I do think his opponents get over analysed a bit too much.

You've mentioned Margarito, Williams and a Prime Pac Man - Okay, completely agree with a prime Pac Man - but (and I've said this many times) - Margarito? Well if we are saying Margarito, why not say Daniel Santos, Paul Williams? If we are saying Paul Williams, then why not Carlos Quintana? Neither of whom were the #1 Welters in the division at any time. Now if you would have said Kostya Tszyu or Winky Wright then I would be more inclined to agree. Kostya Tszyu would undisputed number #1 Light Welter at Floyd's time at the weight and its a bit of a toss up if you want to go for Winky of DLH (at the time of the DLH vs Floyd fight) for the #1 Light Middle.

I think had he fought and beaten either Williams or Margarito at the time of their Welterweight reign - Williams would have been labelled "too green" (as he was vs Quintana), Margarito would have been labelled - not proven enough. I don't see enough "gaps" in the Floyd resume where I can "oh yes, Margarito undisputedly more worthy than him".... also taking to account everyone is surely entitled to a slightly easier one every now and again - beaten 2006-2010 he fought - Judah, Baldomir (might not be the best, but was #1 at the time), DLH, Hatton, JMM, Mosley - every one of those I feel is as worthy as fighters who were losing to the likes of Santos and Quintana - even if some were not at their optimum weight when they fought.

Also, to be fair, perhaps Williams vs Floyd might have happened had it not for been for Williams' accident - you can never tell and for me, it was looking like the best was yet to come for Williams - great win in hindsight over Lara.

Completely agree re Pacquiao.

To be honest, I will not scoff at any suggestion that Floyd is TBE. For me, you cannot compare era's and yes, Floyd's career has some frustrating points - but again you only need to look at his 2006-2010 opponents to see it wasn't all bum of the month. However, the way in which he handles these highly credible fighters - his ring craft and all around ability - for me he has to be right up there with some of the finest of all time.

I'm a huge SRL fan and used to champion him to the hilt in such debates about the G.O.A.T - However, seeing Floyd fight - I'm not talking about his resume her, just seeing the man in action. I think I would find it hard to make a case for Leonard now.

At 147 I can see little case for Floyd, Leonard was too big, too strong and aggressive, and too smart - I'm not sure Floyd has a case for every really being dominant at 147. He hasn't beaten a single proper elite level welterweight in their prime.

[Ezzard]

He's the most underwhelming great fighter to watch that I've witnessed. I guess the truth is that if he were Pernell Whittaker he'd be more appreciated. the problem is the guy is massively over-hyped. He's made a fortune with uninspiring match ups in which he's done just enough to win despite loading every dice in Vegas in his favour.

The last time he fought someone that seemed like a live fight was Hatton. His best win was probably against DLH who had fought one fight in 3 years going in...

Chavez and Duran were not "padding" their records. They weren't collecting stats. They were just staying busy and in shape and mostly fighting those type of fights in smaller venues. It used to happen all the time in the past.

But I guess Mayweather's career is the way of things... Since Leonard's second career we've had Roycott and the meager fair served up by Mayweather. Ward is next, no doubt. Another top class American boxer who wants to drain his opponents and have the refs and judges in his back pocket.

[Stuarty]

All this TBE crap is boring and a gimmick. You could make arguements for and against him all day long but we'll never know. He's been smart in his selection of opponents and a lot of fans will remember him for that. In terms of my era he's probably the best I've seen but he's not someone I get excited to watch nor do I particularly like him tbh. I admire his talent and style though. I think the vast majority of boxing fans are buzzing for Canelo v Cotto coming up and Floyd beat the two of them relatively comfortably so that tells its own story.

[jamesmcdonnell]

He's the most underwhelming great fighter to watch that I've witnessed. I guess the truth is that if he were Pernell Whittaker he'd be more appreciated. the problem is the guy is massively over-hyped. He's made a fortune with uninspiring match ups in which he's done just enough to win despite loading every dice in Vegas in his favour.

The last time he fought someone that seemed like a live fight was Hatton. His best win was probably against DLH who had fought one fight in 3 years going in...

Chavez and Duran were not "padding" their records. They weren't collecting stats. They were just staying busy and in shape and mostly fighting those type of fights in smaller venues. It used to happen all the time in the past.

But I guess Mayweather's career is the way of things... Since Leonard's second career we've had Roycott and the meager fair served up by Mayweather. Ward is next, no doubt. Another top class American boxer who wants to drain his opponents and have the refs and judges in his back pocket.

Difficult to argue with that. I'd still say Corralles was the best win. Corrales was a danger man, and it was a hell of a performance by Mayweather.

[whiskey]

Is anybody really bothered about Mayweather?

I find him stupid, boring and vulgar outside the ring. He's bad for boxing. All he does is buy white sportscars.

The amount of times casual-fans I know have chucked money into watching Floyd and staying up late, only to see a dull fight has been way too often over the last few years.

[Ezzard]

The manner of the Corrales win was fantastic. But Corrales was good not great. Or very good, if you like.

We have Mayweather saying he's retiring and we don't believe him and Haye saying he's coming back and we don't believe him...

[jamesmcdonnell]

Is anybody really bothered about Mayweather?

I find him stupid, boring and vulgar outside the ring. He's bad for boxing. All he does is buy white sportscars.

The amount of times casual-fans I know have chucked money into watching Floyd and staying up late, only to see a dull fight has been way too often over the last few years.

I agree, the only person benefitting from Floyd's career is himself and those who get a payday against him. He basically siphons money from big networks, to produce dull fights.

[stujones]

He's the most underwhelming great fighter to watch that I've witnessed. I guess the truth is that if he were Pernell Whittaker he'd be more appreciated. the problem is the guy is massively over-hyped. He's made a fortune with uninspiring match ups in which he's done just enough to win despite loading every dice in Vegas in his favour.

The last time he fought someone that seemed like a live fight was Hatton. His best win was probably against DLH who had fought one fight in 3 years going in...

Chavez and Duran were not "padding" their records. They weren't collecting stats. They were just staying busy and in shape and mostly fighting those type of fights in smaller venues. It used to happen all the time in the past.

But I guess Mayweather's career is the way of things... Since Leonard's second career we've had Roycott and the meager fair served up by Mayweather. Ward is next, no doubt. Another top class American boxer who wants to drain his opponents and have the refs and judges in his back pocket.

So Cotto and Canelo were no longer live - jesus wept! That's not only disrespectful to Floyd, but also to Canelo and Cotto.

I think there is more of a case slagging off Hatton credentials at 147 than Canelo and Cotto.... so why not go the whole hog and say Floyd's last live opponent was - Jose Luis Castillo the first time.... in fact his only live opponent cos Corrales was weight drained also.

Look at the whose who JCC fought between 1990 (after Taylor) and 1992 (Camacho) - even the world title defences are against very medicore opponents in the main. Don King was solely after the 100-0 resume - so yes, Chavez was very much collecting stats. He wanted the 100-0 as much as Floyd still wanted the 0.

[stujones]

I know what your getting at John, there is some frustration and I can agree. However, I do think his opponents get over analysed a bit too much.

You've mentioned Margarito, Williams and a Prime Pac Man - Okay, completely agree with a prime Pac Man - but (and I've said this many times) - Margarito? Well if we are saying Margarito, why not say Daniel Santos, Paul Williams? If we are saying Paul Williams, then why not Carlos Quintana? Neither of whom were the #1 Welters in the division at any time. Now if you would have said Kostya Tszyu or Winky Wright then I would be more inclined to agree. Kostya Tszyu would undisputed number #1 Light Welter at Floyd's time at the weight and its a bit of a toss up if you want to go for Winky of DLH (at the time of the DLH vs Floyd fight) for the #1 Light Middle.

I think had he fought and beaten either Williams or Margarito at the time of their Welterweight reign - Williams would have been labelled "too green" (as he was vs Quintana), Margarito would have been labelled - not proven enough. I don't see enough "gaps" in the Floyd resume where I can "oh yes, Margarito undisputedly more worthy than him".... also taking to account everyone is surely entitled to a slightly easier one every now and again - beaten 2006-2010 he fought - Judah, Baldomir (might not be the best, but was #1 at the time), DLH, Hatton, JMM, Mosley - every one of those I feel is as worthy as fighters who were losing to the likes of Santos and Quintana - even if some were not at their optimum weight when they fought.

Also, to be fair, perhaps Williams vs Floyd might have happened had it not for been for Williams' accident - you can never tell and for me, it was looking like the best was yet to come for Williams - great win in hindsight over Lara.

Completely agree re Pacquiao.

To be honest, I will not scoff at any suggestion that Floyd is TBE. For me, you cannot compare era's and yes, Floyd's career has some frustrating points - but again you only need to look at his 2006-2010 opponents to see it wasn't all bum of the month. However, the way in which he handles these highly credible fighters - his ring craft and all around ability - for me he has to be right up there with some of the finest of all time.

I'm a huge SRL fan and used to champion him to the hilt in such debates about the G.O.A.T - However, seeing Floyd fight - I'm not talking about his resume her, just seeing the man in action. I think I would find it hard to make a case for Leonard now.

At 147 I can see little case for Floyd, Leonard was too big, too strong and aggressive, and too smart - I'm not sure Floyd has a case for every really being dominant at 147. He hasn't beaten a single proper elite level welterweight in their prime.

Leonard never fought a fighter quite like Floyd before and I think his inability to tag Floyd would even frustrate Ray. Whilst Floyd might not have fought a fighter as good as Leonard before. He has fought pretty much every style there is and every time (except for DLH - and I'm getting increasingly convinced Floyd has issues in training there) he's been well in control (personally, I do not see Castillo 1 as particularly close - lost a few rounds yes, but always thought Floyd was in control).

I don't want to sound like a fan boy or part of TMT with the clichéd sentence, but no-one (barring DLH) has come close to unlocking the Matrix - no matter what style he has faced. That's why if anyone wants to make a case for him being the GOAT - I will not simply scoff.... resume, accomplishments etc - yes fair enough he might not be the best ever.... but in the ring simply because in 49 fights only once he came close to losing - I think anyone can make a case Floyd against any one from 135-147. We can criticise his resume all we want, but it is hardly a Lester Jacobs undefeated streak is it.

I don't think Leonard has fought someone as accurate and quick as Floyd and I think he would pot shot his way to a win. His jab would be just too quick even for Leonard.

[Ezzard]

He's the most underwhelming great fighter to watch that I've witnessed. I guess the truth is that if he were Pernell Whittaker he'd be more appreciated. the problem is the guy is massively over-hyped. He's made a fortune with uninspiring match ups in which he's done just enough to win despite loading every dice in Vegas in his favour.

The last time he fought someone that seemed like a live fight was Hatton. His best win was probably against DLH who had fought one fight in 3 years going in...

Chavez and Duran were not "padding" their records. They weren't collecting stats. They were just staying busy and in shape and mostly fighting those type of fights in smaller venues. It used to happen all the time in the past.

But I guess Mayweather's career is the way of things... Since Leonard's second career we've had Roycott and the meager fair served up by Mayweather. Ward is next, no doubt. Another top class American boxer who wants to drain his opponents and have the refs and judges in his back pocket.

So Cotto and Canelo were no longer live - jesus wept! That's not only disrespectful to Floyd, but also to Canelo and Cotto.

I think there is more of a case slagging off Hatton credentials at 147 than Canelo and Cotto.... so why not go the whole hog and say Floyd's last live opponent was - Jose Luis Castillo the first time.... in fact his only live opponent cos Corrales was weight drained also.

Look at the whose who JCC fought between 1990 (after Taylor) and 1992 (Camacho) - even the world title defences are against very medicore opponents in the main. Don King was solely after the 100-0 resume - so yes, Chavez was very much collecting stats. He wanted the 100-0 as much as Floyd still wanted the 0.

I think that's a bit emotional, Stu. Cotto was still credible but the moment had gone. The clamour for that fight was a year or so before.

It was still a good match up. It just wasn't great. And because Floyd decided to not take that fight when it was more relevant it was just more stale bread.

Alvarez... Can you imagine Marvin Hagler or Duran putting a clause like that into a contract???

I checked the Chavez record because I was interested. And wanted to hear you out...

Camacho would be Floyd's best ever win. Haugen, Alli, Smith... These were clearly better fighters than Berto, Grandpa Moseley, Ghost, Ortiz and those Chavez fights were just defences. Not superfights.

If Chavez was really akin to Floyd he would never have fought Whittaker unless he agreed to weigh 100 pounds in his overcoat.

Why try to defend all this? Or care? He was a great fighter who skewed everthing in his favour and sold sh1t as gravy.

Emile Griffith clearly has a better record. That's the kind of guy who deserves being in an all-time discussion.