Serious TBE Discussion

[BAD INTENTIONS]

If you have started a Floyd is 48-1 type topic before, please skip this discussion.

Bernard Hopkins's longevity at the top level has increased his all-time p4p status.
During this run, B-Hop hovered around the top 5 p4p for about 12 years.
He was top 3 in his weight class for 21 straight years (12 as #1)
Although, I think he is underrated in a head to head sense, most fans use this longevity to boost his all-time status.

I don't think Floyd's longevity is being fairly factored into his all-time p4p status.
Probably lost the lowest percentage of rounds over any 19 years in any fighter's career. (Think about it)
Regarded as "the best by far" as opposed to "the best" for over a decade.
Don't include the year off.
10 years as p4p #1 (Including 2015 and the Manny years when it was 1a and 1b to some people who were proven wrong)
17 years top 10 p4p (including 2015)
Top 3 in weight class 17 straight years. Comprehensively beat every fighter ranked above him any division. Except Vivian Harris and Kostya Tszyu)
#1 in weight class 13 times (Including 2015 and the Manny years when it was 1a and 1b to some people who were proven wrong)
Includes 3 years ranked #1 at 154.

How does this longevity factor into his all-time p4p status?

I'm thinking top 10 p4p. As all-time p4p being a reflection of one's career, not necessarily who would win head to head.

[BAD INTENTIONS]

For reference,

Roy Jones Jr.
13 years top 3 division
11 years #1 division

11 years top 10 p4p
3 years #1 p4p (really 8)
Although this is a bit misleading. After Roy was unanimously considered p4p #1, there were years he was ranked below Mosley, DLH and even Hopkins, which wasn't true. Roy was the best in the sport.

[Ricky_]

Having some signature wins is far more substantial. "Longevity" is a recent fad due to advances is sport science and money involved. Floyd's resume pales in comparison to SRLs but SRL didn't have the luxury of an entourage of medical staff hooking him up to IV cocktails.

It's only logical fighters will carry on longer now.

[Chepppaaa]

who cares..he was boring...who cares for boring boxers? you?

[Boxing Writer]

who cares..he was boring...who cares for boring boxers? you?

Floyd was really boring. Much more boring than Lennox Lewis, or Wladimir Klitschko, or Winky Wright who are/were tabbed as boring fighers. Floyd's most entertaining fight makes Whitaker's most boring fight look like Hagler - Hearns. Floyd was probably the most boring ATG fighter in history. But that doesn't change the fact that he is one of the greatest fighters of all time. Not TBE, no. But top-10 very likely.

[koolkc107]

Floyd is not the best boxer I have ever seen.

He is not even the best welter I have ever seen.

And had he fought when Leonard, Hearns, Duran, Benitez, Pryor, Arguello, and a few others fought there is no way he'd be undefeated.

He is a great fighter and I believe he would be that in any era. Just not THE greatest

[Chepppaaa]

who cares..he was boring...who cares for boring boxers? you?

Floyd was really boring. Much more boring than Lennox Lewis, or Wladimir Klitschko, or Winky Wright who are/were tabbed as boring fighers. Floyd's most entertaining fight makes Whitaker's most boring fight look like Hagler - Hearns. Floyd was probably the most boring ATG fighter in history. But that doesn't change the fact that he is one of the greatest fighters of all time. Not TBE, no. But top-10 very likely.

yeah...he is both, one of the best and one of if not the most boring

[jezzamundo]

In my opinion, Manny was p4p #1 for the time from Floyd's mini-retirement until the third Marquez fight. I think it's still an open question who would have won a fight between the two in 2010.

I think an argument can be made for Floyd to be in the all-time p4p top 10, but personally I think he belongs more around the #20-25 area.

[caldo2025]

I'll assume that Floyd was clean here and say that I think that he COULD be the most talented fighter of all time. But I think that the safety in which he chose his opponents and the way he chose to fight those safe opponents will keep him from getting his due. The safety factor coupled with the advantages reaped on fight night must factor into discussions.

With all of that same old BS above, I really don't think Floyd needed to do any of it. I think that Floyd could have beaten them all anywhere, at any time IF he was clean.

Floyd became obsessed with staying undefeated and it really hurt his career and the entertainment factor in his fights IMO. If Castillo and ODH would have stolen one of those decisions then maybe we would have seen Floyd in a few of those classic fights. With nothing to lose, i wonder how great Floyd could have been. It's pretty sad that the self proclaimed TBE doesn't have a fight on his resume that will be talked about for years like Ali, SRL, Tyson, Foreman, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Marciano, Lewis, SRR etc.

[Ricky_]

It's pretty sad that the self proclaimed TBE doesn't have a fight on his resume that will be talked about for years like Ali, SRL, Tyson, Foreman, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Marciano, Lewis, SRR etc.

He does, the biggest fight ever, the pinnacle of Floyd's career.. and he turned it into a farce and threw a drug cheating scandal into the mix

[jamesmcdonnell]

It wasn't the biggest - the fight came far too late.

Arguably the biggest was DLH, but again, that was too late in DLH's career.

I would say Canelo may go down to be a very good win, depending on what Alvarez goes on to do with his career.

Floyd is an ATG, I guess he'd have to be top 20, or maybe top 10 - it's a tricky one to put a figure on, and I'm not sure how valid these arguments really are. He was the best fighter of his generation, I think that's beyond doubt. However, I do not think boxing is as competitive now as it was in previous eras.

I'd rate Roy Jones above him for sure, the manner of his victories was far more impressive over a long period of time. Roy was so dominant, it's easy to forget just how good he was before he returned from heavyweight.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I'll assume that Floyd was clean here and say that I think that he COULD be the most talented fighter of all time. But I think that the safety in which he chose his opponents and the way he chose to fight those safe opponents will keep him from getting his due. The safety factor coupled with the advantages reaped on fight night must factor into discussions.

With all of that same old BS above, I really don't think Floyd needed to do any of it. I think that Floyd could have beaten them all anywhere, at any time IF he was clean.

Floyd became obsessed with staying undefeated and it really hurt his career and the entertainment factor in his fights IMO. If Castillo and ODH would have stolen one of those decisions then maybe we would have seen Floyd in a few of those classic fights. With nothing to lose, i wonder how great Floyd could have been. It's pretty sad that the self proclaimed TBE doesn't have a fight on his resume that will be talked about for years like Ali, SRL, Tyson, Foreman, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Marciano, Lewis, SRR etc.

Hang on - what was Marciano's defining win? Marciano has one of the weakest resumes of the most talked about heavyweight champions. His best win was Ezzard Charles, who was really a career light heavyweight, and who ran him extremely close. Other than that, it's an ageing Walcott and a well past it Louis.

[Batley18]

I think some people let their hatred of Floyd cloud their judgement at times. Others have a different interpretation on what The Best Ever actually means. Does it mean the boxer with the best ring craft, the one with the best record, the one who was in the best fights etc etc. When you look at legacy, and effect on boxing, Ali is far and away above everyone else, but it doesn't mean he was the best ever.

Boxing is about entertainment, if it wasn't then we wouldnt want to watch it. Floyd's achievements, whether entertaining or not, have been absolutely incredible. Multiple weight World Champion, undefeated, and typically facing the best that each weight class has had to offer. Some were a bit boring, but when you talk about the art of boxing, hit but don't get hit, he is probably one of the best ever.

Roy Jones, in his pomp was probably just as good as Floyd, but he has perhaps damaged that legacy by going on too long.

One of the key items to look at when we talk about match making in the past is the formation of the belts. "To be the best you had to beat the best", this used to be relevant in boxing. Back when Hagler, Hearns, Leonard and Duran were in their prime, you only had the WBC and WBA belts. If you wanted to be a World Champion, you would have to beat a top top guy. In boxing today you can become a regular champion, interim champion, and a super champion in some federations. The guys in the past had to have these key battles, guys now do not. It makes it a whole different ball game.

I would probably put Floyd in my top 10. Ability wise I would probably have him in my top 3.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think some people let their hatred of Floyd cloud their judgement at times. Others have a different interpretation on what The Best Ever actually means. Does it mean the boxer with the best ring craft, the one with the best record, the one who was in the best fights etc etc. When you look at legacy, and effect on boxing, Ali is far and away above everyone else, but it doesn't mean he was the best ever.

Boxing is about entertainment, if it wasn't then we wouldnt want to watch it. Floyd's achievements, whether entertaining or not, have been absolutely incredible. Multiple weight World Champion, undefeated, and typically facing the best that each weight class has had to offer. Some were a bit boring, but when you talk about the art of boxing, hit but don't get hit, he is probably one of the best ever.

Roy Jones, in his pomp was probably just as good as Floyd, but he has perhaps damaged that legacy by going on too long.

One of the key items to look at when we talk about match making in the past is the formation of the belts. "To be the best you had to beat the best", this used to be relevant in boxing. Back when Hagler, Hearns, Leonard and Duran were in their prime, you only had the WBC and WBA belts. If you wanted to be a World Champion, you would have to beat a top top guy. In boxing today you can become a regular champion, interim champion, and a super champion in some federations. The guys in the past had to have these key battles, guys now do not. It makes it a whole different ball game.

I would probably put Floyd in my top 10. Ability wise I would probably have him in my top 3.

I don't really take into account Roy's later years. He clearly damaged himself moving down from 200, and never looked the same, prior to that, he was absolutely phenomenal, and way more exiciting to watch than Floyd.

I'd say his win over Virgil Hill was as, if not more impressive than anything Floyd did in his career. Roy was outslicking and beating up opponents even at 175, at 160 and especially 168 he was devastating. The win over Ruiz was the only time he fought with the level of caution Floyd displayed for more than half his career.

[PredatorHayds]

Floyd has a lot of haters at the minute. His legacy will improve as time goes on as people will forget about the negativities, a bit like Lennox.

Personally I have him in my top 10 of all time. Maybe even around the 5 mark.

I don't think he's number 1 but I'm happy to concede that people have a argument that he could be.

[caldo2025]

I'll assume that Floyd was clean here and say that I think that he COULD be the most talented fighter of all time. But I think that the safety in which he chose his opponents and the way he chose to fight those safe opponents will keep him from getting his due. The safety factor coupled with the advantages reaped on fight night must factor into discussions.

With all of that same old BS above, I really don't think Floyd needed to do any of it. I think that Floyd could have beaten them all anywhere, at any time IF he was clean.

Floyd became obsessed with staying undefeated and it really hurt his career and the entertainment factor in his fights IMO. If Castillo and ODH would have stolen one of those decisions then maybe we would have seen Floyd in a few of those classic fights. With nothing to lose, i wonder how great Floyd could have been. It's pretty sad that the self proclaimed TBE doesn't have a fight on his resume that will be talked about for years like Ali, SRL, Tyson, Foreman, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Marciano, Lewis, SRR etc.

Hang on - what was Marciano's defining win? Marciano has one of the weakest resumes of the most talked about heavyweight champions. His best win was Ezzard Charles, who was really a career light heavyweight, and who ran him extremely close. Other than that, it's an ageing Walcott and a well past it Louis.

Marciano's knockout of Walcott was #1 knockout in ESPN's top 10 all time KO's because the significance of that fight. Regardless of when Rocky fought them, he's got several all time greatest boxers on his resume. Floyd only has a couple. The biggest difference between Rocky and Floyds career is that Rocky continuously fought the #1 contender year in and year out. I can't remember the last time Floyd fought the #1 contender.

Marciano's reign did unfortunately happen during a lull in talent in the division. Floyd's reign happened in perhaps the greatest pool of WW's in decades but he just chose not to fight any of them. Worse than that, these WW's also chose not to fight each either too. Sad state of affairs in that division. It should be carrying the sport with elimination bouts left and right but the fad is to cherry pick. Someone needs to step up.

[Ricky_]

A "serious discussion" about the GOAT doesn't involve Floyd Mayweather Jr.

[Ian1973]

Marciano's resume includes Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott, Roand LaStarza, Harry Matthews, Joe Louis.

It doesn't look too bad to me.

[Crease]

My biggest problem with Floyd is I cannot honestly say that he has dominated one single weight division. Was there any division that Floyd defeated all the top credible contenders? I'd have to say a categorical NO on that one.

Throughout his career, there has always been a another fighter in his weight class who he never fought. Whether it be, Antonio Margarito or Paul Williams or Manny Pacqauaio (2009-10) or Shane Mosley (mid 2000s) or Kostya Tszyu (early 2000s).

For me, this 49-0 hyperbole masks the fact that Floyd spent long periods of inactivity, held the sport of boxing to ransom ("I want more money") and that he fought in a long of mismatches... Who can honestly say that the likes of Victor Ortiz or Robert Guerrero deserved their fights against Floyd?

[Crease]

Marciano's resume includes Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott, Roand LaStarza, Harry Matthews, Joe Louis. It doesn't look too bad to me.

Marciano cleaned out his division. He beat every great fighter of his time, even accepted a challenge against one of the greatest Light Heavies ever (Moore) and still won.

Mayweather has never cleaned out a division since becoming a World Champion back in '98.

[PredatorHayds]

I'd say Floyd clearly has a better resume than Marciano.

There is no way Marciano is above Floyd in a all time list.

Moore was wag over the hill when he fought Rocky. He had him in down and gave him hell.

Floyd has beat Cotto, DLH, Pacman, Mosley and Hatton. All guaranteed to be hall of famers.

[Ian1973]

I'd say Floyd clearly has a better resume than Marciano.

There is no way Marciano is above Floyd in a all time list.

Moore was wag over the hill when he fought Rocky. He had him in down and gave him hell.

Floyd has beat Cotto, DLH, Pacman, Mosley and Hatton. All guaranteed to be hall of famers.

Moore was down four times in that fight and was KO'd in the 9th. Every judge had Marciano ahead on the cards. I'd hardly call that being given hell.

[PredatorHayds]

Moore was completly over the hill that fight.

The problem with that fight was Rocky could still pull the trigger but Moore couldn't.

Rocky beat everyone put in front of him but didn't fight anyone that was good enough to trouble him. He didn't have that career defining fight that is needed to go down as one of the GOAT

[Ian1973]

Moore was completly over the hill that fight.

The problem with that fight was Rocky could still pull the trigger but Moore couldn't.

Rocky beat everyone put in front of him but didn't fight anyone that was good enough to trouble him. He didn't have that career defining fight that is needed to go down as one of the GOAT

You are changing your story. First Moore gave Rocky hell, now he was way over the hill. Which one is it?

I disagree with you Marciano is one of the all time greats for sure.

[PredatorHayds]

Moore was over the hill and gave Rocky trouble.

I only have Rocky as my 5th best heavy all time. I wouldn't have him in my P4P list at all