The 49-0 record... and Floyd

[stujones]

We'll agree to disagee James and Ezzard - completely agree with what you are saying if we were looking at Duran at Welter.... yeah, I would consider him better than Hatton at 147 - but Duran at Middle? Not for me.

I know Barkley vs Duran was one of your favourite fights and displays and yes, he did roll back the clock somewhat for that one - but Barkley was an average champion in the main and the Hagler fight was around the time in which he was "gone" mentally - loses to Laing, Benetiz and Hearns were around this period. Yes, he did well against Hagler - but then so did Maidana against Mayweather, I'm not going to say that Maidana was one of Mayweather's best wins just because he did well against him.

Ezzard, will agree to disagree on the vast majority of those names that you think would have been two time world champion in Floyd's era. How many versions would Alan Minter win then, a fighter who is never mentioned in any discussion ranking Britains greatest middles - but yet beat two of those names mentioned. Munroe and Hart were better fighters than their record suggest for sure... I don't want to do them or Hagler a disservice, they were just about the best there was at the time..... but it was a poor time as poor a time as it is now at 147 surely there is no denying this. I just hope that in time people might see Mayweather's opponents in a more positive light as they have clearly done with Hagler's.

Nice debating though.

[Ezzard]

Hagler's opponents were especially shite. People will say "oh Floyd made Alvarez kill himself to make the weight" - Hagler's career best win was against a Welterweight - but does not get a single criticism and without that win his resume as a championship fighter would be piss poor next to Floyd's.

Hagler gets plenty of criticism. He was pilloried after the pts win over Duran. I remember him being accused of not living up to the traditions of the sport's blue ribbon division.

[jamesmcdonnell]

We'll agree to disagee James and Ezzard - completely agree with what you are saying if we were looking at Duran at Welter.... yeah, I would consider him better than Hatton at 147 - but Duran at Middle? Not for me.

I know Barkley vs Duran was one of your favourite fights and displays and yes, he did roll back the clock somewhat for that one - but Barkley was an average champion in the main and the Hagler fight was around the time in which he was "gone" mentally - loses to Laing, Benetiz and Hearns were around this period. Yes, he did well against Hagler - but then so did Maidana against Mayweather, I'm not going to say that Maidana was one of Mayweather's best wins just because he did well against him.

Ezzard, will agree to disagree on the vast majority of those names that you think would have been two time world champion in Floyd's era. How many versions would Alan Minter win then, a fighter who is never mentioned in any discussion ranking Britains greatest middles - but yet beat two of those names mentioned. Munroe and Hart were better fighters than their record suggest for sure... I don't want to do them or Hagler a disservice, they were just about the best there was at the time..... but it was a poor time as poor a time as it is now at 147 surely there is no denying this. I just hope that in time people might see Mayweather's opponents in a more positive light as they have clearly done with Hagler's.

Nice debating though.

The thing with Duran, was that his skillset meant that he could compete with bigger men and still be highly competitive, he was incredibly adept defensively, had a cast iron chin (only Hearns ever really chin checked him, and let's face it, Hearns power was virtually superhuman) - and could fight in the pocket.

Hatton depended on being bigger and stronger than his opponents at 140, once he moved to 147, those advantages disappeared, and he became pretty ordinary relatively speaking. Duran even at 160, was better than Hatton at 147 relatively speaking. Admittedly, Duran has a patchy career, but he turned up for the Hagler fight in good form, no doubt about it. He fought out of his skin that night.

[stujones]

What you are saying makes sense James, but for me at 160 a lot of Duran's strengths had gone. Not just the physical strength he had over his opponents at 135 but his handspeed and footwork. For me it was his hanspeed and footwork - both defensively and offensively that made him an absolute monster at Lightweight - quite possibly the greatest fighter I have ever seen. However, IMO he lost his speed as he moved up and this made him easier to handle. When he could cut off the ring effectively at Lightweight against master boxers in that division)... he would struggle as he faced quick fighters and the box type as he moved up (Benitez and Laing as examples).

I would say it would be very close to call between Duran and Mayweather as the fighter I have seen look most "comfortable" in the loneliest place in the world. Even in his 50's Duran looked less shot than many fighters and looked poised and relaxed even against Joppy (which was a sad sight in the main, but credit to his immense skill set that he actually looked comfortable taking a bit of a pounding). However, I think at 160 (and at advancing years) his handspeed was gone, his footwork was slower and power also fading. He still had the savvy to pick up belts against green champions, but he could get outboxed and picked off by the best at 147 onwards - which I felt was a combination of the weight and age.

Off course what you say about Hatton is correct, although I think this was less of a issue for the Floyd fight as it was for Collazo and Schenchko. Ricky was considered the genetically bigger guy - starting his career at a higher weight division and one would think (and this is what many pundits thought before the first bell) the higher the weight class the more it would suit Ricky - as it was for DLH fighting Mosley at 154 compared to 147.

[Ezzard]

We'll agree to disagee James and Ezzard - completely agree with what you are saying if we were looking at Duran at Welter.... yeah, I would consider him better than Hatton at 147 - but Duran at Middle? Not for me.

I know Barkley vs Duran was one of your favourite fights and displays and yes, he did roll back the clock somewhat for that one - but Barkley was an average champion in the main and the Hagler fight was around the time in which he was "gone" mentally - loses to Laing, Benetiz and Hearns were around this period. Yes, he did well against Hagler - but then so did Maidana against Mayweather, I'm not going to say that Maidana was one of Mayweather's best wins just because he did well against him.

Ezzard, will agree to disagree on the vast majority of those names that you think would have been two time world champion in Floyd's era. How many versions would Alan Minter win then, a fighter who is never mentioned in any discussion ranking Britains greatest middles - but yet beat two of those names mentioned. Munroe and Hart were better fighters than their record suggest for sure... I don't want to do them or Hagler a disservice, they were just about the best there was at the time..... but it was a poor time as poor a time as it is now at 147 surely there is no denying this. I just hope that in time people might see Mayweather's opponents in a more positive light as they have clearly done with Hagler's.

Nice debating though.

Been a pleasure.

One last point. Minter is criminally overlooked in my opinion. Had he got the decision against Hamsho 50-50 I'm sure he'd have done far better in the rematch with Hagler and won some people over. Wouldn't have won but he would have done himself justice in a way he didn't the night he lost the title.

[stujones]

I would agree, I think people forget that he did tag and IMO hurt Hagler. I think his resume is over looked but personally I wouldn't have him at the upper echelons when looking at the Greatest Britain's - probably in the 11-20 bracket (although I've never thought about it in such detail).

[TheGman]

He could of fought paul williams at 140 could of fought margarito at 140/147 he could of fought tito could of fought pacquiao in 2010 could of fought de la hoya two years earlier could of fought mosley earlier etc etc but in time wen our kids look at his record he fought the best of our generation regardless of when were how and why and beat them all regardless of opinion,im not a floyd fan(far from it) but credit wer its due

[TheGman]

Not one fighter in the history of the sport has a record with the class of opponents fought like floyd he has beat the best of the best in and around his weight.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Not one fighter in the history of the sport has a record with the class of opponents fought like floyd he has beat the best of the best in and around his weight.

That's not true. Many of Floyds best opponents were either past their best, or outside their best weight class.

SRL's resume is better than Floyds in terms of quality - he fought better opposition in a career with less fights. Just because he lost one to Duran, for me does not diminish that. The fact is, he took on a former ATG and not 5 years after they both peaked (though they did that too).

[TheGman]

Not one fighter in the history of the sport has a record with the class of opponents fought like floyd he has beat the best of the best in and around his weight.

That's not true. Many of Floyds best opponents were either past their best, or outside their best weight class.

SRL's resume is better than Floyds in terms of quality - he fought better opposition in a career with less fights. Just because he lost one to Duran, for me does not diminish that. The fact is, he took on a former ATG and not 5 years after they both peaked (though they did that too).

All of floyds recent opponents,bar berto,wer the best in his weight at the time of the fight,is this not right?? As i say im not a floyd fan but iv got to give credit wer its due simple as. Imo srl, hearns,arron pryor and chavez would of beat floyd if they were around today. The difference between srl time and floyd time is srl's time fought for the belt and belts meant something to the fighters of that era wer as floyd has single handedly made the belts look worthless but the wbc still hang out of his bum hole as if he is some sort of god

[TheGman]

As for the record of 49-0 in the lighter weights it doesnt carry as much meaning as the heavyweights imo,just saying.

[Counter-puncher]

As for the record of 49-0 in the lighter weights it doesnt carry as much meaning as the heavyweights imo,just saying.

right, because the competition at the heavy weight level is soooooooooo fierce, just look at the Murderer's Row Wlad has fought in the last few years, yeah...

[TheGman]

As for the record of 49-0 in the lighter weights it doesnt carry as much meaning as the heavyweights imo,just saying.

right, because the competition at the heavy weight level is soooooooooo fierce, just look at the Murderer's Row Wlad has fought in the last few years, yeah...

But even in a weak era at heavy wlad has been koed by average men catch my drift??

[TheGman]

As for the record of 49-0 in the lighter weights it doesnt carry as much meaning as the heavyweights imo,just saying.

right, because the competition at the heavy weight level is soooooooooo fierce, just look at the Murderer's Row Wlad has fought in the last few years, yeah...

Heavyweight boxing is more risk cause of the heavy shots,wlad's reign will end oct 24th and we will be rid of the boring eastern european hold on the heavyeeight division

[bigjack]

Is anybody really bothered about Mayweather?

I find him stupid, boring and vulgar outside the ring. He's bad for boxing. All he does is buy white sportscars.

The amount of times casual-fans I know have chucked money into watching Floyd and staying up late, only to see a dull fight has been way too often over the last few years.

I see what your saying,the only fight i have watched all the way through was the Alvarez one,however if the opponents aren't good enough to make him fight then you can't blame Floyd for the hit and run tactics,so it works both ways.

[whiskey]

I see what your saying,the only fight i have watched all the way through was the Alvarez one,however if the opponents aren't good enough to make him fight then you can't blame Floyd for the hit and run tactics,so it works both ways.

I hear what you are saying mate, and I understand your point and maybe it's just me but I do blame Floyd though, even when in complete control he never pulls the trigger and gets the job finished.

People want to be entertained and opponents hitting fresh air, is great if combined with a conclusive ending. To casual fans his approach comes across as an anti-fighter, someone slipping and moving whilst the opponent looks for a scrap.

Sure the purists might enjoy it, he's a genius at what he does - but it's not fun for the majority of viewers.

I want armchair fans to say "wow, did you see the fight Saturday?!" and be keen to watch more boxing - instead they get their fingers burned again and again.

And on the subject of opponents - Guerrero, Ortiz, a lightweight Marquez, Andre Berto, Carlos Baldomir... for every decent name there are 5 that are ones handpicked because they are crude, small, old or have a far lesser skillset than himself.

He's an extremely talented, but boring charlatan whom has sucked tens of millions out of the sport and failed to entertain more times than he should have, given his ability. I have seen people leaving their seats at the 10th round to avoid the rush to the exits, because the UD12 is written in stone. People were booing him against Baldomir.

Pacquiao aside, I have not been remotely excited since he fought Ricky Hatton. I didn't bother watching Berto and have no desires to watch it on catch-up either. And yet this was a $40m super fight. Imagine the the bunch of match-ups that could be made with that sort of war chest to tempt people into the ring with each other?

In closing, the pay cheques he receives for his services in comparison to the entertainment he performs in the ring, are a complete mismatch.

[Bobbyptsd]

As for the record of 49-0 in the lighter weights it doesnt carry as much meaning as the heavyweights imo,just saying.

Why wouldn't it?

Hell, why wouldn't it count more when one has gone up in weight and fought bigger guys?

[mike john]

Not one fighter in the history of the sport has a record with the class of opponents fought like floyd he has beat the best of the best in and around his weight.

That's not true. Many of Floyds best opponents were either past their best, or outside their best weight class.

SRL's resume is better than Floyds in terms of quality - he fought better opposition in a career with less fights. Just because he lost one to Duran, for me does not diminish that. The fact is, he took on a former ATG and not 5 years after they both peaked (though they did that too).

i think thats something of an understatement. if you put all of leonards and mayweathers wins together in one list and ranked them, sugar ray would take spots 1, 2, 3 and 4

[Ezzard]

I think my key gripe is that he was for the last 7-8 years he has dictated who he fought, when he fought them, how much they could weigh and he won these fights in a safety first style whilst the marketeers sold thee fights as profoundly meaningful.

When you look back over his career there are plenty of good and very good names in there. But once he got to the top of earnings heap he has not delivered.

[Datsue]

Not one fighter in the history of the sport has a record with the class of opponents fought like floyd he has beat the best of the best in and around his weight.

That's not true. Many of Floyds best opponents were either past their best, or outside their best weight class.

SRL's resume is better than Floyds in terms of quality - he fought better opposition in a career with less fights. Just because he lost one to Duran, for me does not diminish that. The fact is, he took on a former ATG and not 5 years after they both peaked (though they did that too).

i think thats something of an understatement. if you put all of leonards and mayweathers wins together in one list and ranked them, sugar ray would take spots 1, 2, 3 and 4

[Ricky_]

Is anybody really bothered about Mayweather?

I find him stupid, boring and vulgar outside the ring. He's bad for boxing. All he does is buy white sportscars.

The amount of times casual-fans I know have chucked money into watching Floyd and staying up late, only to see a dull fight has been way too often over the last few years.

I see what your saying,the only fight i have watched all the way through was the Alvarez one,however if the opponents aren't good enough to make him fight then you can't blame Floyd for the hit and run tactics,so it works both ways.

1 thing that always puzzled me is why 1. The onus seems to be on his opponents & 2. He wins every second of non-action by default. I can't fathom how anyone can find 7 or more rounds Mayweather "won" in his dreadful displays against Pacquaio and Maidana. Reminded me of Hopkins woeful effort vs Calzaghe.

[Bobbyptsd]

Is anybody really bothered about Mayweather?

I find him stupid, boring and vulgar outside the ring. He's bad for boxing. All he does is buy white sportscars.

The amount of times casual-fans I know have chucked money into watching Floyd and staying up late, only to see a dull fight has been way too often over the last few years.

I see what your saying,the only fight i have watched all the way through was the Alvarez one,however if the opponents aren't good enough to make him fight then you can't blame Floyd for the hit and run tactics,so it works both ways.

1 thing that always puzzled me is why 1. The onus seems to be on his opponents & 2. He wins every second of non-action by default. I can't fathom how anyone can find 7 or more rounds Mayweather "won" in his dreadful displays against Pacquaio and Maidana. Reminded me of Hopkins woeful effort vs Calzaghe.

So.......it's up to Floyd to.......lose?

Ok.

Seriously, there is criticism, and then there's just "I don't like this guy".

[Ricky_]

1 thing that always puzzled me is why 1. The onus seems to be on his opponents & 2. He wins every second of non-action by default. I can't fathom how anyone can find 7 or more rounds Mayweather "won" in his dreadful displays against Pacquaio and Maidana. Reminded me of Hopkins woeful effort vs Calzaghe.

So.......it's up to Floyd to.......lose?

Ok.

Seriously, there is criticism, and then there's just "I don't like this guy".

No, the point is Floyd stinks the joint out and the default position is the other guy is 'failing' to make a fight of it? Had Floyd been around in a previous era the ref would have instructed the guy to fight. There was a fught Roger Mayweather was running and potshotting to the point the crowd grew restless. Mills Lane called time and gave him the instruction to go engaged (and he gotted ko'd).