Yamanaka and the pound for pound list

[Coachmanager]

Yamanaka gets the WBC title in 2011, he fought his first good rival yesterday and got exposed. So 4 years fighting low level competition, but he appears in some pound for pound list.

Let's analize his rivals.

Esquivel, he has been knocked down many times, never have beaten to anyone relevant.
Darchyan, before lose with Yamanaka, he was schooled by Moreno. Never have been relevant in bantamweight.
Tomas Rojas, a clubfigther.
Tunacao, his best wins are Esquivel and Oba.
Jose Nieves, a clubfighter
Guevara, a clubfighter who also has a title shot with Santa Cruz.
Jamoye, he ko Lee Hasking, but he has lost with average fighters.
Suriyan Sor Rungvisai, a thai fighter who most of the times fight journeymen.
Diego Ricardo Santillan, never has been anyone good.

We are hard with Wilder, Santa Cruz, García, but Yamanaka and other japanese do the same thing and they are included in pound for pound list. Are we more acquiescent with exotic fighters?

[PredatorHayds]

Uchiyama has got a good record.

I also think your being hard on Yamanaka. His record is decent.

[Datsue]

Yamanaka has a decent record. He's been active, he's clearly the best in the division & there's certainly been no clamour for him to face anyone else in his division--anyone you can name is at best #2 & the onus would be on them to seek a fight with him.

Uchiyama's a very good fighter with a better resume than anyone else at his weight, for my money. His stoppage of Bryan Vazquez looks better & better: Sergio Thompson & Javier Fortuna couldn't dent the Costa Rican, yet Uchiyama smashed him before those other fighters got to him. & Uchiyama's beaten the consensus #2 at the weight, Miura (the WBC champ).

Also, Yamanaka's record pisses all over Wilder's from a great height. & unlike Garcia Yamanaka isn't facing career flyweight journeymen who've never done shite at flyweight & beating them up on prime-time subscription TV (Garcia's fight with Salka, fer instance). & Santa Cruz has--until Mares--not faced one fighter who's world class, apart from (HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA) Victor Terrazas (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA), who was so world-class he was KO'd by a part-time binman from Nottingham who was at best Euro-level. When not facing such awesome tests LSC has fought a bunch of journeymen & never-weres, usually with a weight advantage that looks like a couple of stone by the time he gets in the ring.

So.

Your answer is: "no".

Also, Asian fighters really don't get much hype in the English-speaking world. What you're perceiving is a tendency to over-rate or at least over-talk the potential of fighters from that part of the world by aficionados: they do this because most English-speaking (coughcoughAmericancoughcough) fans are ignorant & dismissive of any fighters they do not see on readily available media networks, so the proponents of these fighters probably tend toward the over-enthusiastic when waxing lyrical about fighters that they may know a lot about.

[jujigatame]

Yamanaka is good, but he's #1 in a weak division and should be nowhere near P4P lists. I don't think he's even the best Japanese fighter P4P. Uchiyama has more title defenses and his strength of opposition has been at least as good.

[Boxing Prospect]

Yamanaka gets the WBC title in 2011, he fought his first good rival yesterday and got exposed. So 4 years fighting low level competition, but he appears in some pound for pound list.

Let's analize his rivals.

Esquivel, he has been knocked down many times, never have beaten to anyone relevant.
Darchyan, before lose with Yamanaka, he was schooled by Moreno. Never have been relevant in bantamweight.
Tomas Rojas, a clubfigther.
Tunacao, his best wins are Esquivel and Oba.
Jose Nieves, a clubfighter
Guevara, a clubfighter who also has a title shot with Santa Cruz.
Jamoye, he ko Lee Hasking, but he has lost with average fighters.
Suriyan Sor Rungvisai, a thai fighter who most of the times fight journeymen.
Diego Ricardo Santillan, never has been anyone good.

We are hard with Wilder, Santa Cruz, García, but Yamanaka and other japanese do the same thing and they are included in pound for pound list. Are we more acquiescent with exotic fighters?

Where do we start here..."exposed" by fighting in a very close one with the slipperiest active fighter? I know you had it 11-1 or 10-2 or whatever but it really was a much closer bout than you're giving credit for against someone who was, stylistically, the toughest opponent in the division for him. Moreno's only "real" loss was in a ball breaking performance to the much bigger Mares (who would later have success up at 126lbs, 8lbs higher) so essentially what you're doing is saying he struggled with a stylistic nightmare to an excellent fighter? I guess Marquez must have been awful because Mayweather toyed with with him, using your own logic?

Now on to his opposition-
Esquivel had been on a 13 fight winning streak including a wins over Tshifhiwa Munyai and a stoppage against Eduardo Garcia, both of whom fought for world titles. Notably he was just the second man to stop Garcia, something Nashiro couldn't do, and he did it much quicker tha Tomoki Kameda, Ricardo Cordoba, Victory Terrazas or Nehomar Cermeno, who were all world champions.

Darchinyan, who had "Never have been relevant in bantamweight" had been robbed against Mares and beat Perez at the weight, he would later go on to beat the then touted Del Valle and come 4 minutes from beating Donaire at 122lbs. Considering how close he took Mares and his win against Perez I'm not sure what more he had to do to be relevant. Moreno's win over him was, for many, Moreno's coming out party which again says how good "Chemito" is.

Rojas, like many Mexicans, fought as a kid without much in terms of an amateur career and picked up losses early in career, in fact he was once 25-11, before going on a great run which saw him beating Kono and Nashiro in Japan in Super Flyweight title bouts. I dare say he was picked for a Yamanaka opponent due to his previous wins in the land of the rising Sun. For what it's worth his had gone 14-2-1 in his previous 14 with losses to Darchinyan and Suriyan (more about him in a minute). To decry him as a "club fighter" would suggest you think the same about Salido who had a similarly poor start to life in the pro-ranks before finding his feet.

Your point on Tunacao shows that you really have very little under-standing about him. His best win wasn't Oba or Esquivel, and in fact neither was close to his best result. His best win was over Medgoen Singsurat, in fact that came just 8 months after the Thai beat a then emerging Pacquioa, in Thailand a draw with Kobayashi is a solid result in it's self, especially on foreign soil. Wins over Oba, Honda and Nakahiro are solid wins, not great but solid all the same at the contender level.

Nieves was nothing special so won't make any issue with your description.

Guevara hadn't deserved either shot, the way Yamanaka took him out was however impressive, especially considering LSC's laboured win over him. An interesting side note-Guevara's brother later went on to win a world title in Japan stopping Akira Yaegashi.

Jamoye was a solid European level fighter. It'd be like Wilder defending his title against Teper or Thurman's victory over Bundu. Although not a great fighter he does, as you mentioned, hold a win over IBF "interim" champion Iwasa, arguably deserved a win over Tomoki Kameda and holds a win over WBO champion Pungluang Sor Singyu, albeit a controversial one. He also ran Jamie Mcdonnell, the current WBA champion, razor close. The most "average" fighter he's lost to was Karim Guerfi, his other 5 losses have been to fighters who were, or went on to be, world level fighters.

I know you've just looked at Suriyan Sor Rungvisai's record and not actually seen him in action but here goes. Suriyan is probably the #3 or #4 guy in Thailand P4P (behind best friend Srisaket, Amnat Ruenroeng and possibly Wanheng Menayothin). His record is padded with stay busy fights due to the Thai system where fighters are paid peanuts so take what are effectively stay busy fights to get paid, a throw back to the 1900's-1950's American fight scene-and no one would call all those guys crap. Suriyan holds notable wins over Tepparith Kokietgym (who later went on to win the WBA Super Flyweight title), Tomas Rojas and Nobuo Nashiro, and arguably deserved a draw with Pongsaklek Wonjongkam (in a bout that he THREW UP IN) and was very close to earning a draw in his loss to Sato, also on the road in Japan. His record is padded but he's as legit and tough as they come and has seen fighters like Zhanat Zhakiyanov do their best to avoid him. Maybe watch his notable bouts rather than focusing on records, they are afterall for misleading. Given he was the WBC mandatory and had enjoyed good success against Japanese fighters in Japan it was actually a quality win and one that Yamanaka didn't "choose"

No argument with Santillan he didn't deserve a shot and was one of the more padded unbeaten challengers in recent times.

The reason that guys like Yamanaka get less stick from fans is-
1-Fans don't seem to really have a clue what the hell goes on in the lower weights (which you've sort of proven)
2-He's not actively avoided opponents, in fact he put out public feelers for Santa Cruz and Rigondeaux last year
3-He's not being paid a fornicating fortune to fight over-rated opponents
4-he's not telling the world he's this or that
5-He's had one lucky decision in his favour against, on the other hand Garcia's had at least 3

As for Japanese fighters in general, and Thai's and Filipino's for the matter, they tend to be hugely over-looked and fans under-state their ability. Uchiyama is a great case with wins over Vasquez, Miura, Jomthong, Salgado and Solis. That's 5 EXCELLENT wins yet fans would rather rave about Adrien Broner. How Amnat Ruenroeng wasn't a serious contender for the 2014 Fighter of the Year is a mystery given he beat Fuentes, Ioka on the road, and Arroyo though further exemplifies the point.

Like wise, Ryo Matsumoto, Takuma Inoue and Kosei Tanaka never got a mention in any of the international "Prospect of the Year" articles yet they both showed did more than many who did get considered, in fact Tanaka's win over Hara was probably the best by a "prospect" by Matsumoto beating Hisataka, Kaovichit and Samor in a year was brilliant. Takuma Inoue on the other hand beat Fahlan Sakkreerin Jr and Nestor Daniel Narvaes, both impressive wins for a guy who had only had a handful of fights.

I seem to remember a lot of fans making a fuss about Crawford's year and the BWAA had all but crowned him the the Fighter of the Year before the year was even over, ignoring the great achievements of Naoya Inoue, who wasn't even on the ballot!

Edit-
Just to add how much has been made of Hinata Maruta's debut? That's a tougher debut than anyone in recent times (and I'll include Lomachneko here). If an American makes his debut at that level fans would proclaim him a PPV star yet Maruta's bout is going under-the radar. More amazingly he's a kid (18) without the top level amateur credentials yet the Japanese team behind him, at the Morioka gym, are saying "this kid is that good", like the Hatanaka gym did with Kosei Tanaka and the Ohashi gym did with Naoya Inoue. When a Japanese promoter talks up their guy they tend not to be blowing smoke up the guys ass but actually act on their convictions. If American promoters did the same with their top youngsters the sport would be in a much better place.

[Counter-puncher]

Fvck me.

Its still a little early for post of the year, but if that isn't post of the month I'll fvck a dead pig in the mouth in front of a crowd of braying public school scumbags

Boxing Prospect

[Counter-puncher]

Really, that was fvcking tremendous

[Counter-puncher]

BP- The Hatanaka gym, any connection to the guy who fought Zaragoza?

[jujigatame]

BP is very knowledgeable but he's a bit of a crazy homer for lower weight fighters. For example, this statement is ridiculous:

How Amnat Ruenroeng wasn't a serious contender for the 2014 Fighter of the Year is a mystery given he beat Fuentes, Ioka on the road, and Arroyo though further exemplifies the point.

Fuentes was a solid veteran fighter on a long win streak, but mostly against poor opposition. He was a borderline top 10 case.

Ioka was elite at 105 but had just moved up to 112 and had no meaningful wins over 105.

Arroyo was a totally unproven prospect who had even lost one of his early 4-rounders against a can. He was not on any reputable top 10 lists.

So while Ruenroeng had a good year, the idea that he should have been a FOTY candidate in 2014 is completely insane.

[Counter-puncher]

Ha yes that was a bit of a stretch, as were the ref's to Tunacao's best wins against the Thai who beat Pac, which happened so long ago i think it may have been in the clinton presidency...

But still, IDGAF, that shit was tremendous.

[Coachmanager]

Where do we start here..."exposed" by fighting in a very close one with the slipperiest active fighter? I know you had it 11-1 or 10-2 or whatever but it really was a much closer bout than you're giving credit for against someone who was, stylistically, the toughest opponent in the division for him. Moreno's only "real" loss was in a ball breaking performance to the much bigger Mares (who would later have success up at 126lbs, 8lbs higher) so essentially what you're doing is saying he struggled with a stylistic nightmare to an excellent fighter? I guess Marquez must have been awful because Mayweather toyed with with him, using your own logic?

I like Moreno, I knew he is a great boxer. When I meaned exposed , I said in a pound for pound boxer context. I had it 11-1 with a knock down for Moreno. And in my best Yamanaka scenario I had it 8-4 and a knockdown for Moreno. I can't see a close fight. If Marquez didn't have other great win against top level opposition I would think he is awful, but Yamanaks's resume and Marquez's resume are completely different.

Now on to his opposition-
Esquivel had been on a 13 fight winning streak including a wins over Tshifhiwa Munyai and a stoppage against Eduardo Garcia, both of whom fought for world titles. Notably he was just the second man to stop Garcia, something Nashiro couldn't do, and he did it much quicker tha Tomoki Kameda, Ricardo Cordoba, Victory Terrazas or Nehomar Cermeno, who were all world champions.

Ko someone before other doesn't make you better. WTH is Munyai? I watched him against Quigg, it is the only fight I have watched of him, but hasn't beaten anything. Is like you say, Vidondo is in a 10 winning streak including wins against Moli and Domínguez. And before you answer me, Esquivel is a lot better than Vidondo.

Darchinyan, who had "Never have been relevant in bantamweight" had been robbed against Mares and beat Perez at the weight, he would later go on to beat the then touted Del Valle and come 4 minutes from beating Donaire at 122lbs. Considering how close he took Mares and his win against Perez I'm not sure what more he had to do to be relevant. Moreno's win over him was, for many, Moreno's coming out party which again says how good "Chemito" is.

I can buy your argument. Although I don't like Mares at all. Mares is the perfect example of how the day before weight in destroys the low weight divisions.

Your point on Tunacao shows that you really have very little under-standing about him. His best win wasn't Oba or Esquivel, and in fact neither was close to his best result. His best win was over Medgoen Singsurat, in fact that came just 8 months after the Thai beat a then emerging Pacquioa, in Thailand a draw with Kobayashi is a solid result in it's self, especially on foreign soil. Wins over Oba, Honda and Nakahiro are solid wins, not great but solid all the same at the contender level.

It was 13 years before Yamanakas's fight.

You assume I don't see batamweight fights, which it is not true.

I am not English speaker so I am not able to answer you as you deserve. Sorry.

[Boxing Prospect]

BP- The Hatanaka gym, any connection to the guy who fought Zaragoza?

Yeah, it's the same guy, Kiyoshi Hatanaka. He's Tanaka's manager, Ohashi (the manager of the Inoue's) is the the guy that fought Chang and Finito. A lot of gym owners in Japan are former fighters.

Ha yes that was a bit of a stretch, as were the ref's to Tunacao's best wins against the Thai who beat Pac, which happened so long ago i think it may have been in the clinton presidency...

But still, IDGAF, that poo was tremendous.

It was his best win though, as old as it was it was still a MUCH better win than ones over the likes of Oba who was never any more than Japanese domestic class.

RE Amnat-
Fuentes had been on the fringes of a world title fight for donkeys and was a solid pro with decent wins. Maybe nothing world class but still very solid wins. Ioka was unbeaten, had scored a notable wins at 108 against Kwanthai (alright padded but still not terrible) and Alvarado, who would go on to give Reveco hell, Arroyo on the other hand was a touted amateur who had gone through the stages at a solid pace. Fair enough his best win was Saludar but it wasn't that long ago that Saludar was the "next Pacquiao".

You could suggest that Crawford beat a confidence shot Burns who had been given a gift against Beltran, Beltran and a much smaller Gamboa (who really had no right to be at 135 and had been inactive for a year). Wouldn't argue too much with Crawford getting it but it seemed Amnat had a better shout than some of those considered in contention, like Kovalev who beat Agnew and Caparello with his only really big win, albeit a very good one, coming against Hopkins. It was, IMO, a poor year and the stand outs were Inoue and Crawford, but Amnat was certainly more deserving than some of those mentioned.

[Boxing Prospect]

I like Moreno, I knew he is a great boxer. When I meaned exposed , I said in a pound for pound boxer context. I had it 11-1 with a knock down for Moreno. And in my best Yamanaka scenario I had it 8-4 and a knockdown for Moreno. I can't see a close fight. If Marquez didn't have other great win against top level opposition I would think he is awful, but Yamanaks's resume and Marquez's resume are completely different.

Top level of the division is different, he has beaten guys who beat the other guys (his wins have wins over the current WBO, IBF interim and a very close loss to the WBA). He has wins over champions from the lower weights who have made a solid go at fighting in the division (Tunacao, Darchinyan and Suriyan). He's missing a unification bout but that's about it.

Ko someone before other doesn't make you better. WTH is Munyai? I watched him against Quigg, it is the only fight I have watched of him, but hasn't beaten anything. Is like you say, Vidondo is in a 10 winning streak including wins against Moli and Domínguez. And before you answer me, Esquivel is a lot better than Vidondo.

Munyao is a guy who ripped through a lot of solid British guys before having his career hit the wall. Among those he beat was current IBF interim champion Haskins two wins over the then touted Martin Power and more recently he ran Paulus Ambunda razor close. Not world class but one time he showed the ability to make a very good contender. Admittedly his career had slowed before he faced Esquivel but he was once considered a genuinely promising fighter in his own right.

It was 13 years before Yamanakas's fight.

You assume I don't see batamweight fights, which it is not true.

I am not English speaker so I am not able to answer you as you deserve. Sorry.

It might have been 13 years ago, it was still his best win, albeit at Flyweight. (Another interesting aside he fought to a draw with Celes Kobayashi who is the manager of Ryosuke Iwasa, who lost to Yamanaka and Haskins)

If you watch Bantamweights regularly then there is absolutely no reason to suggest Darchinyan wasn't relevant at the weight, or to try and downplay the likes of Suriyan.

[Counter-puncher]

Ohashi, nice left hook but couldn't crack an egg, bless him. Glad to see him and hatanaka still in the game, both really gutsy fighters.

Are they hands-on trainers or figureheads?

[Boxing Prospect]

I'm not not too sure on Hatanaka but Ohashi is as hands on as he could be really. You never see an Ohashi gym fighter with out Mr Ohashi there.

Oooh another is Ioka Gym which is run by Hiroki Ioka and his brother (Kazuto's father) I should probably do a whole thread on the gym ownders so as to not derail this one...

[digzee]

I'm not not too sure on Hatanaka but Ohashi is as hands on as he could be really. You never see an Ohashi gym fighter with out Mr Ohashi there.

Oooh another is Ioka Gym which is run by Hiroki Ioka and his brother (Kazuto's father) I should probably do a whole thread on the gym ownders so as to not derail this one...

I think you should have your own Asia forum here to keep us all updated, that way I don't have to constantly PM you

[olij999]

who was so world-class he was KO'd by a part-time binman from Nottingham who was at best Euro-level. When not facing such awesome tests

Too harsh on Rendall Munroe, that. I was ringside for several of his fights, including the Terrazas fight, and he was better than you make out. Beating Martinez twice and Terrazas were significant results at that time. No-one realistically expected him to beat Martinez first time round (which was why Martinez was quite happy to take the fight in Rendall's back yard), and he simply ground Terrazas down with educated body work after losing the first few rounds. If he had been Mexican, people would have been extolling it. My strong impression was that after he lost his WBC title shot in Japan, he lost his edge, as he had perhaps achieved what he wanted to - certainly his form after that was not what it was before. But at his peak, he was deservedly a top-10 super-bantam.

As for comments about him being a bin-man, so what? That's hard physical work, and he did it because he wanted to stay grounded and make sure he had an income when he didn't have fights. He was always fit beyond belief. Plus it's not like super-bantamweights earn a ton of money in any event, so it seems perfectly sensible to have a job like that.

[Datsue]

Too harsh on Rendall Munroe, that. I was ringside for several of his fights, including the Terrazas fight, and he was better than you make out. Beating Martinez twice and Terrazas were significant results at that time. No-one realistically expected him to beat Martinez first time round (which was why Martinez was quite happy to take the fight in Rendall's back yard), and he simply ground Terrazas down with educated body work after losing the first few rounds. If he had been Mexican, people would have been extolling it. My strong impression was that after he lost his WBC title shot in Japan, he lost his edge, as he had perhaps achieved what he wanted to - certainly his form after that was not what it was before. But at his peak, he was deservedly a top-10 super-bantam.

As for comments about him being a bin-man, so what? That's hard physical work, and he did it because he wanted to stay grounded and make sure he had an income when he didn't have fights. He was always fit beyond belief. Plus it's not like super-bantamweights earn a ton of money in any event, so it seems perfectly sensible to have a job like that.

I like Rendall & certainly don't think any less of him for his job. I don't really see that it makes any difference what one does for a living (outside of if you work in sales/marketing/PR/for a bank, in which case I think a hell of a lot less of someone).

I cheered like feck when he went over to fight the proper world champion in the champion's back-yard. I always rooted for him.

I will hold that he was a very good European level fighter, but never any better.

My description of him was to point out that a Euro-level fighter (admittedly a very good one, comparable say to being EBU champ back when that meant something) with a part-time job hammered Terrazas, a fighter who was LSC's best win (up to the Mares fight). I hold no ill toward said very good Euro etc etc etc, & any venom I may have spilled was directed toward the myth of LSC as some conquering hero rather than a protected, babied fighter who always gets a massive weight advantage; I didn't mean to spill any on Rendall.

I hope that clears things up for you. If you wish to dispute that Rendall was any better than, say, John Davidson (another sub-world level very good European level fighter) or Michael Brodie then... Argument for another thread. But whether or not you take it as a slight, I shall reiterate that LSC's best win pre-Mares was over a guy destroyed by an EBU-level fighter who had a part-time job.

Having omitted to specify his job this time, I hope this statement passes your lofty standards for passing references.

[Andrew]

Want to see him unify to prove he is 'The Man' at Bantamweight. Then I would consider him p4p.

The last fight shown it will take something exceptional to beat him in Japan, nothing suggests he is chinny and he is from what I have seen 'the puncher' in the weight class.

I'd give definitely give Jamie McDonnell 'a chance' of beating him in the UK or Neutral venue. My concern would be that Jamie's upperbody movement is not at the level of Moreno's and that's what you need to avoid that killer straight left hand Yamanaka possesses.

Like to see him have an American bout like his compatriot Miura who is another hard hitting southpaw.

McDonnell, Payano, Haskins/Caballero winner or Moreno again is what I want to see him in with.

[Datsue]

Want to see him unify to prove he is 'The Man' at Bantamweight. Then I would consider him p4p.

The last fight shown it will take something exceptional to beat him in Japan, nothing suggests he is chinny and he is from what I have seen 'the puncher' in the weight class.

I'd give definitely give Jamie McDonnell 'a chance' of beating him in the UK or Neutral venue. My concern would be that Jamie's upperbody movement is not at the level of Moreno's and that's what you need to avoid that killer straight left hand Yamanaka possesses.

Like to see him have an American bout like his compatriot Miura who is another hard hitting southpaw.

McDonnell, Payano, Haskins/Caballero winner or Moreno again is what I want to see him in with.

Good post mate.

[Chepppaaa]

top 20, no top 10

[Bobbyptsd]

top 20, no top 10

Yeah, he's certainly no Erislandy Lara, right?

[PredatorHayds]

top 20, no top 10

Yeah, he's certainly no Erislandy Lara, right?

I'd have Yamanaka above Lara

[Bobbyptsd]

top 20, no top 10

Yeah, he's certainly no Erislandy Lara, right?

I'd have Yamanaka above Lara

So would I, I was taking the piss in reference to his top ten thread.

[PredatorHayds]

Yeah, he's certainly no Erislandy Lara, right?

[/quote]
I'd have Yamanaka above Lara[/quote]

So would I, I was taking the piss in reference to his top ten thread.[/quote]
You know we are in the minority and the Lara fanboys will rip us to pieces.

I've got your back bro