What if Foreman had won in Zaire?

[Tony1244]

I always thought Joe Bugner could have "Jimmy Younged" George Foreman.

Quarry would have had no chance against GF. But Bugner could have beaten GF, but Quarry would likely have outscored Bugner. Styles make fights as they say.

[Ambling Alp II]

They say that, but it isn't true. Styles can a difference, but the talent level has to be close enough. Styles don't make fights.

Bugner didn't have quite enough to beat Foreman.

[elmersalsa]

Not too many heavyweights had enough talent to beat the great George Foreman

[Syntax Error]

He wouldn't disappeared for the entirety of 1975 & would probably have been outpointed by Jimmy Young in 1975 or '76.

[Cutman Scabbers]

I always thought Joe Bugner could have "Jimmy Younged" George Foreman.

Quarry would have had no chance against GF. But Bugner could have beaten GF, but Quarry would likely have outscored Bugner. Styles make fights as they say.

"Quarry surprised Shavers by landing a big punch in the 1st round and followed that up to win a stunning first-round KO win. The incensed King reportedly left Shavers in the ring and tore up his contract to manage him. Heavyweight champion George Foreman was in attendance, and negotiations for a title bout were already in motion for mid-1974. After the Shavers bout, Foreman reportedly back away from that proposed bout.[1] He later claimed to have dodged Quarry, who he never formally met in the ring."

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Reportedly Elvis and Michael are alive and well together in Rio, but I digress.

In 74 George fought Norton and Ali, far bigger fights than Quarry. Big fan of Jerry, but his weird fans always make duck claims and unsupported sparring claims that don't hold water.

Maybe DKing was ducking Quarry, he certainly screwed George after the Ali loss and ruined more good heavies than anyone. Quarry made quite a rep for himself, better than many champs, so no need to fabricate nonsense to fluff him up.

[ImranSarwar]

The Thing is.....a LOSS, as EXPECTED, would of dropped the Ali mystic that certain "distance". We can't absolutely know but IT- SEEM the WIN boosted him and propelled a even longer career. If George would of HURT him that night, I think, certainly, The Ali mindset suffers along with it. Norton bout a little bit different story.

[Tony1244]

I always thought Joe Bugner could have "Jimmy Younged" George Foreman.

Quarry would have had no chance against GF. But Bugner could have beaten GF, but Quarry would likely have outscored Bugner. Styles make fights as they say.

"Quarry surprised Shavers by landing a big punch in the 1st round and followed that up to win a stunning first-round KO win. The incensed King reportedly left Shavers in the ring and tore up his contract to manage him. Heavyweight champion George Foreman was in attendance, and negotiations for a title bout were already in motion for mid-1974. After the Shavers bout, Foreman reportedly back away from that proposed bout.[1] He later claimed to have dodged Quarry, who he never formally met in the ring."

I like GF. I've liked him for some time. But I have never believed a word he said when discussing other fighters. I think he liked Quarry, so therefore he complimented him. It would be hard for me to believe that Foreman was more scared of Quarry than he was of Ali, Frazier or Norton.

[Tony1244]

They say that, but it isn't true. Styles can a difference, but the talent level has to be close enough. Styles don't make fights.

Bugner didn't have quite enough to beat Foreman.

Probably not, but maybe. Bugner's style was similar to Jimmy Young's.

[Cutman Scabbers]

- Reportedly Elvis and Michael are alive and well together in Rio, but I digress.

In 74 George fought Norton and Ali, far bigger fights than Quarry. Big fan of Jerry, but his weird fans always make duck claims and unsupported sparring claims that don't hold water.

Maybe DKing was ducking Quarry, he certainly screwed George after the Ali loss and ruined more good heavies than anyone. Quarry made quite a rep for himself, better than many champs, so no need to fabricate nonsense to fluff him up.

Are you saying George Foreman was a weird fan of Quarry?

"Jerry Quarry was the only man I ever ducked." -- George Foreman, By George, 1995.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Yup, George a very weird fan of boxing and Quarry. Thought everyone knew that.

On his old website he had Quarry in the middle of his top ten heavies, very weird indeed. He also said he was scared of Frazier, so how do we take that out of context to his career?

Bottom line is he took the two biggest fights available in Ali and Norton, both of who beat Quarry as did Frazier. At the time of the Ali fight, King owned his contract with he and Ali freezing him out of the title. You can't spin it any other way since by 75 Quarry was spent anyway.

[Cutman Scabbers]

Maybe it's not about spinning it, just taking his word and the facts at face value.

Yes, GF beat Frazier and Norton (of course we know both GF and Quarry lost to Ali).

Let's also not forget that GF went life & death with Ron Lyle, whereas Jerry Quarry
beat Lyle easily.

Being "scared" of Frazier and wary of Quarry could have to do with the fact that both
fighters were dominant during the early part of Foreman's career. Just because Foreman
decimated Frazier doesn't mean he wasn't scared of him.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Someone wanted it to happen.




Foreman took the title from Frazier in Jamaica in January '73, defended against Roman in Japan in September '73, defended against Norton in Venezuela in March '74, and then defended against Ali in Zaire in October '74. The above boxing tabloid cover appears in the June '73 issue, and just reading the cover, it is Quarry doing the talking, not George, so I'd guess Quarry wanted it and thus is the source of the ducking charge. He was also accusing Ali, Frazier, and Norton of ducking him irregardless of two losses to Ali and one to Frazier. Eventually he fought Frazier again and then Norton but never George because their timelines just don't mesh.

As to Lyle, well, Quarry took 12rds. Foreman with 15 months of rust and a new trainer took only 5 rounds, moreover when Foreman was only seconds away from knocking out Lyle in the 2nd round, the bell rang 1 full minute early, probably initiated by King himself who was finding George difficult to deal with and wanted better leverage if he lost.

As to Ali, Lyle pounded him from the 1st into the 11th as Ali literally did next to nothing. Then Ali surprised him with his first decent punches of the fight. Lyle was stunned, but figured on drawing Ali out with his own ropa dope, but the ref said "You ain't Ali, you're out of there" as Lyle chased him across the ring chewing him out, another controversial Ali win. George put Lyle out cold for over a minute.

As to Young, he outworked and outclowned Ali at his own game, flat out robbed by public consensus, so King arranged his victory over George that only saw Young run like a rabbit until he scored the lucky KD in the 12th. George suffered the historical curse of all big sluggers when they fail to knock out someone, something boxer's don't suffer when they turn the tables to knock out a slugger. Ask yourself, if Ali had a $7.5 million offer for the Foreman rematch in the immediate aftermath of their fight with Foreman wanting it, how is it Foreman ended up in Puerto Rico fighting as an undercard to featherweights on a Thursday? He had won all five comeback fights by KO and the public was clamoring to see him.

Oh, and Foreman's fellow peer, the much lauded Mr. Larry, he at 23-0 was even lower on the menu, fighting some 5-2 scrub named Horace Robinson who finished up with an 8-7 record, and it took him 5 whole rounds? Why wasn't he chosen to lose to Young who could've run from him just as easy as Foreman? Why didn't he ever fight Quarry, Frazier or Ali who had the belt?

Answer: Mr. Larry was much more pliable, so he could be developed to hold a belt for a while, which is what happened shortly after George retired in complete frustration anyone who ever held a job could understand.

[Cutman Scabbers]

Nice cover!

I see what you mean.

Still, as to Lyle, while Foreman only took 5 rounds, he was knocked down
a couple times and hurt badly. Quarry won unscathed.

The Foreman comment coming after Quarry vs. Shavers makes the most sense
to me. I could see Foreman saying "Hmmm, I think I'll stay away from that guy,"
after watching Quarry take out one of the most feared punchers in the game.
That doesn't mean Foreman wouldn't have beaten Quarry. Just that he might
have been a little more wary of him than other opponents.

[Nile4000]

He would be champ for 2 more years, until Jimmy Young beat him by decision.

[Tony1244]

- Reportedly Elvis and Michael are alive and well together in Rio, but I digress.

In 74 George fought Norton and Ali, far bigger fights than Quarry. Big fan of Jerry, but his weird fans always make duck claims and unsupported sparring claims that don't hold water.

Maybe DKing was ducking Quarry, he certainly screwed George after the Ali loss and ruined more good heavies than anyone. Quarry made quite a rep for himself, better than many champs, so no need to fabricate nonsense to fluff him up.

Are you saying George Foreman was a weird fan of Quarry?

"Jerry Quarry was the only man I ever ducked." -- George Foreman, By George, 1995.

I never take these quotes seriously. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's like girls calling other girls cute; it's a popularity contest. Foreman figured out that Quarry was white, and this would endear him to a lot of fans. Bugner I could see having a chance at Foreman, style wise. Quarry was exciting, but no way no how could Jerry have taken Foreman's shot.

Bugner went 27 rounds with Ali and 12 with Frazier. Quarry was stopped in 8, 3, 7, and 5.

If GF had won in Zaire? It all depends on how Ali lost. A controversial stoppage, of course Ali would have been back.

[BIGDOUG58]

Lets make some assumptions here, If Foreman wins in Zaire over Ali is it TKO or Points, I think if George had of Dropped Ali and/or even Knocking him out Ali would have Retired,
However if the fight goes 15 and Ali loses on Points he Continues.
Foreman's Fight with Lyle would have been for the Title and I think Foreman would have beaten Bugner.
But the guys like Coopmans ,Dunn and Wepner would not have wanted anything to do with Foreman,
Maybe Frazier fights Foreman and loses and Norton would have been beaten as well. there aint any more quality heavyweights left.
74 Oct.. Foreman TKO 10 Ali
75 March Foreman TKO 9 Bugner
75 July Foreman TKO 6 Frazier
75 Dec Foreman TKO 8 Lyle
76 June Foreman KO 3 Norton
77 Jan Shavers KO 8 Foreman
77 May Shavers KO 11 Norton
77 Nov Shavers W 15 Young
78 April Holmes W15 Shavers

And the rest is History

[Ambling Alp II]

Guys like Coopman, Wepner, and Dunn would have taken on Foreman if it was for the title. Jose Roman did. I doubt they would do much better though.

Doubtful Shavers winning a 15 round decision against Young in 1977. If Shavers would have won it would have been by KO.
There are all kind of scenarios. What if Young beat Foreman for the title in 1976? Then Young loses it to Joe Frazier? All kinds of things could have happened.
I doubt Ali would have retired.

The answer to all of this is nobody knows.

It just shows how one fight (one important one anyway like Ali-Foreman) can makes things go a certain way.

[Kalan]

There may never have been a lean, mean grilling machine.

George has always maintained he made more out of the George Foreman grill than he did in the boxing ring. Perhaps a win over Ali in Zaire would have meant he'd be less wealthy now?

If Foreman were more successful earlier in his career the various television commercials and the grilling machine would have appeared much earlier.. When he made his comeback George said he was focused on being a smarter, more patient, and more skillful boxer. He was starting his career all over like he was a 4-round fighter who had everything to learn.. He lived with the Young fight for a long time and didn't want a repeat.

Had he reached that mindset 10 or 15 years earlier -- the only thing that would have happened is he would have been more popular and successful a lot earlier and the same commercial opportunities, or maybe better ones, would have presented themselves.

[BoxBuzz]

His journey was unique in it's humility....he "chopped wood and carried water".... he took his time and went back to the basics....he clarifies in his book why he felt the need to proceed in that fashion.

Regaining an understanding of the "prize fight" vibe. A fighter has his skill, his experience, his attitudes....but the actual "events" have to be inculcated into your persona in a way where you are not too full of yourself, and willing to risk it all when needed, and to relax and enjoy the fight when it's not at it's life and death moments. Something that he explains can only be done in the trenches of the routine fights.


George has that bad guy in him...probably always will....but he has a sage in him as well. And I think he has patented the perfect plan for a return to greatness. Problem is, it wont' work for most, because it takes old fashioned hard work, commitment and patience.


On another note, Kalan, would you mind running out to DeAngelos' for me and fetching me a number nine with plenty of jalapenos and a Coke?

[Kalan]

Yes

[BoxBuzz]

Tip o' the Stetson to ya then.....


or wait....did you mean "yes" you mind? Or "Yes" right away?

[Kalan]

I mind your endless idiocy

[Like a Boss]

There may never have been a lean, mean grilling machine.

George has always maintained he made more out of the George Foreman grill than he did in the boxing ring. Perhaps a win over Ali in Zaire would have meant he'd be less wealthy now?

If Foreman were more successful earlier in his career the various television commercials and the grilling machine would have appeared much earlier.. When he made his comeback George said he was focused on being a smarter, more patient, and more skillful boxer. He was starting his career all over like he was a 4-round fighter who had everything to learn.. He lived with the Young fight for a long time and didn't want a repeat.

Had he reached that mindset 10 or 15 years earlier -- the only thing that would have happened is he would have been more popular and successful a lot earlier and the same commercial opportunities, or maybe better ones, would have presented themselves.

Once you earn a certain amount you virtually can't spend it all anyway. I doubt George would change a thing.