Counter-puncher wrote:yes, and Panamanians are well-known to have a cold-resistant subcutaneous membrane making them impervious to the cold
such a problem could only possibly affect a boxer hailing from the tropical steambath of Nottinghamshire
this lennox guy is spud woolatesque in some of his posts.
No mate, I doubt anyone here is unaware of the effects of dehydration or cold, people are mocking you because of your 'grasping at straws' excuse making. Esham would've had 36 hours to rehydrate. Plenty of time. As to the cold, well I assume Martinez also would've suffered from the temparature esp as he originally hails from warmer climes.big lennox wrote:What's interesting about the snidy, know it all comments here, is that ironically your reply's show that you don't know it all and are prepared to take things at face value and ignore key bits of information as they come to light.
The bottom line is that Esham lost a world title fight. Was he severely dehydrated? Yes. Would that have affected his chances? Undoubtably do. What concerns me is that you are not prepared to even accept this. Thank goodness none of you are coaching boxers, as ploughing on, deaf to the advice of doctors and research evidence would have your fighters in all sorts of trouble long-term.
I never said that the cold conditions were exlusive to Esham. My point is that cold conditions can have an affect on people, hence boxers are advised to keep warm. What I said was that there was an eerie atmoshpere in a cold arena that night, with some brutal knockouts and knockdowns, capped off by the tragic Paul Ingle fight (who was hurt badly in the first round, and who was also sewriously dehydrated -he had to lose a lot of weight coming into that fight). I don't dispute that Esham lost badly, but I don't think that it was as simple as saying he was out of his depth.reggaereggae wrote:No mate, I doubt anyone here is unaware of the effects of dehydration or cold, people are mocking you because of your 'grasping at straws' excuse making. Esham would've had 36 hours to rehydrate. Plenty of time. As to the cold, well I assume Martinez also would've suffered from the temparature esp as he originally hails from warmer climes.big lennox wrote:What's interesting about the snidy, know it all comments here, is that ironically your reply's show that you don't know it all and are prepared to take things at face value and ignore key bits of information as they come to light.
The bottom line is that Esham lost a world title fight. Was he severely dehydrated? Yes. Would that have affected his chances? Undoubtably do. What concerns me is that you are not prepared to even accept this. Thank goodness none of you are coaching boxers, as ploughing on, deaf to the advice of doctors and research evidence would have your fighters in all sorts of trouble long-term.
Anyway if Esham was cold and this affected him badly, then essentially you're blaming his corner for not warming him up properly and not keeping him warmed up. Who were his corner on the night? Or his trainer who according to you didn't monitor his weight loss properly? You're basically slating his entire team with your excuses.
Was Esham also cold and dehydrated for all his 11 loses? Or do you have another 10 new excuses for those performances? (Although I guess you can use the cold excuse again for when he was ironed out by Oleg Yefimovic as the fight happened in Ukraine....)
Look, bottom line is Esham was a good fighter, but your excuse making is not doing him or your argument any favours. You're acting like a groupie who can't have their idol criticised in any way....
You make some decent points. And looking at Esham's record, This is only the second time he made the bantam limit so fair enough.big lennox wrote:I never said that the cold conditions were exlusive to Esham. My point is that cold conditions can have an affect on people, hence boxers are advised to keep warm. What I said was that there was an eerie atmoshpere in a cold arena that night, with some brutal knockouts and knockdowns, capped off by the tragic Paul Ingle fight (who was hurt badly in the first round, and who was also sewriously dehydrated -he had to lose a lot of weight coming into that fight). I don't dispute that Esham lost badly, but I don't think that it was as simple as saying he was out of his depth.reggaereggae wrote:No mate, I doubt anyone here is unaware of the effects of dehydration or cold, people are mocking you because of your 'grasping at straws' excuse making. Esham would've had 36 hours to rehydrate. Plenty of time. As to the cold, well I assume Martinez also would've suffered from the temparature esp as he originally hails from warmer climes.big lennox wrote:What's interesting about the snidy, know it all comments here, is that ironically your reply's show that you don't know it all and are prepared to take things at face value and ignore key bits of information as they come to light.
The bottom line is that Esham lost a world title fight. Was he severely dehydrated? Yes. Would that have affected his chances? Undoubtably do. What concerns me is that you are not prepared to even accept this. Thank goodness none of you are coaching boxers, as ploughing on, deaf to the advice of doctors and research evidence would have your fighters in all sorts of trouble long-term.
Anyway if Esham was cold and this affected him badly, then essentially you're blaming his corner for not warming him up properly and not keeping him warmed up. Who were his corner on the night? Or his trainer who according to you didn't monitor his weight loss properly? You're basically slating his entire team with your excuses.
Was Esham also cold and dehydrated for all his 11 loses? Or do you have another 10 new excuses for those performances? (Although I guess you can use the cold excuse again for when he was ironed out by Oleg Yefimovic as the fight happened in Ukraine....)
Look, bottom line is Esham was a good fighter, but your excuse making is not doing him or your argument any favours. You're acting like a groupie who can't have their idol criticised in any way....
I should also say, since you made this point, that Esham's dehydration was not the fault of his trainers, who look after their fighters with great care. He had just simply got to the stage that he could no longer make that weight. And you don't always know that that is the case until it happens, unlike Oscar De La Hoya returning to welterwight after 7 years and losing badly to Manny Pacquaio, where a blind man on a flying horse could see he would never make that weight again and retain his strength.
Re: Esham's other loses -there is a myriad of reasons, sometimes it was a case of the other fighter being better, but a lot of them were at the tail end of his career when he had left the Ingle gym and was past his best. I think that is a fair comment.
No. He trained for a fight beleiving that the weight would be ok, it had been in the past, but people grow and get older and, at some stage, there is a natural tipping point, which happend that night. He may well have lost the fight in any event (who knows), but he found out that it was no longer an ideal weight for him and wisely moved up and had a lot of success. It's a very hard to get the weignht right. Johnny Nelson, had always made the old cruiserweight limit of 13 stone 8 easily, but as he got older he found it tougher and, had tghe limit not been increased to 14 stone 4lbs, he would have retired.mickey1975 wrote:The Ingle gym now add Esham going in dehydrated(severely) to their growing rap sheet. Brook badly weight managed for Jones 1, fishy injury for Kell, Galahad's brother...
Absolutely. Sparring, generally speaking, is not the same as fight night. However you do get some very competitive sparring which is a good yard stick, and I understand Pickering and Martinez sparring was like that and it did his confidence the world of good. He went on to have a fine career.European Champion is a very good level.Counter-puncher wrote:Fans invariably make more of sparring sessions than boxers do
European level is excellent and he had a really good career, boxing fans can lose perspective - only rating top multi weight world champions, its silly.big lennox wrote:Absolutely. Sparring, generally speaking, is not the same as fight night. However you do get some very competitive sparring which is a good yard stick, and I understand Pickering and Martinez sparring was like that and it did his confidence the world of good. He went on to have a fine career.European Champion is a very good level.Counter-puncher wrote:Fans invariably make more of sparring sessions than boxers do
Counter-puncher wrote:Yes Lennox, look I admit my posts have been a bit mischievous but you Sheffield lads are so quick to bite defensively its difficult to resist. I find you a good poster and your insights are appreciated and if I lived anywhere near Sheffield and had a kid wanted to box you are 100% right where I would send him. And yes esham was a fine boxer who made a good career for himself.
No problem at all. I knew I was being over sensitive, and yet....I couldn't stop myself from biting the bait. I have always enjoyed reading your posts too.Counter-puncher wrote:Yes Lennox, look I admit my posts have been a bit mischievous but you Sheffield lads are so quick to bite defensively its difficult to resist. I find you a good poster and your insights are appreciated and if I lived anywhere near Sheffield and had a kid wanted to box you are 100% right where I would send him. And yes esham was a fine boxer who made a good career for himself.
big lennox wrote:No problem at all. I knew I was being over sensitive, and yet....I couldn't stop myself from biting the bait. I have always enjoyed reading your posts too.Counter-puncher wrote:Yes Lennox, look I admit my posts have been a bit mischievous but you Sheffield lads are so quick to bite defensively its difficult to resist. I find you a good poster and your insights are appreciated and if I lived anywhere near Sheffield and had a kid wanted to box you are 100% right where I would send him. And yes esham was a fine boxer who made a good career for himself.
