The great Ken Norton

[BoxBuzz]

He never fought Frazier, so we can't count that against Norton since it never happened.
No he couldn't muster a win against Holmes. He lost a close decision in a great fight. He gave Larry Holmes hell. He really was the only one to do that against a prime Holmes.
How many guys in the history of the sport do you really think would have done better? Four or five?

He was probably past it against Shavers. Cooney? Come on.
Young? Well I scored it for Young too, but it was close. And it was a great fight. If you are trying to prove that Norton was not that good, that isn't a fight a fight to show someone.

How about the Bobick fight? That was a big fight at the time and now people completely dismiss it.

Well Alp, In hindsight, I think it's quite right to dismiss the Bobick fight. Though yes, it was hyped and for some "full of suspense".

I'm not sayin' he's not good. I'm just attempting to temper the enthusiasm. His main claim to fame is that he gave the best a very good run....but did not really test himself against the "rest of the best" and when he did he came up short. Not fighting Frazier is a big deal.....and there are a few others he sidestepped...he was rather well managed, with the Ali matchings as the goal.

[BoxBuzz]

Jerry Quarry had said he was drunk when he got the call to fight Ken Norton.
Alos he had about 3 weeks notice(or less),that is true,
but he had to arrange or get some to prepare the fight camp
and travele,make personal appearences etc.

Ken Norton beat him. That's the end of it. He was 3 years older than Jerry Quarry.

Norton did a number on Ali 3 Times. The only man in history that the Greatest couldn't beat.

Ok I just checked the record....and it says there that Ali won 2 out of three. Don't try to pull a fast one.....we got fact checkers here.


Anyway...the Norton and Quarry fight was not quite on a level playing field no matter how you stack it up. For reasons that most reasonable people who know the game would concede worth at least considering. Most of which have been mentioned.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes that is right. Quarry had to make personal appearances and travel. Nobody could possibly overcome that.

[Ambling Alp II]

He never fought Frazier, so we can't count that against Norton since it never happened.
No he couldn't muster a win against Holmes. He lost a close decision in a great fight. He gave Larry Holmes hell. He really was the only one to do that against a prime Holmes.
How many guys in the history of the sport do you really think would have done better? Four or five?

He was probably past it against Shavers. Cooney? Come on.
Young? Well I scored it for Young too, but it was close. And it was a great fight. If you are trying to prove that Norton was not that good, that isn't a fight a fight to show someone.

How about the Bobick fight? That was a big fight at the time and now people completely dismiss it.

Well Alp, In hindsight, I think it's quite right to dismiss the Bobick fight. Though yes, it was hyped and for some "full of suspense".

I'm not sayin' he's not good. I'm just attempting to temper the enthusiasm. His main claim to fame is that he gave the best a very good run....but did not really test himself against the "rest of the best" and when he did he came up short. Not fighting Frazier is a big deal.....and there are a few others he sidestepped...he was rather well managed, with the Ali matchings as the goal.

Bobick was 38-0 and had beaten some decent fighters. Norton stopped him in less than a minute.
Not fighting Frazier is a big deal? OK, can then assume Frazier not fighting Norton is a big deal?
Who did he sidestep? He didn't fight Lyle or Bugner. Not sure if he actually "sidestepped" them.

Norton took on Ali three times, Foreman, Holmes, Quarry,Young and Shavers. That is 8 major fights. Not mention several decent fighters such as Bobick, Kirkman, Stander, Middleton, and Clark.

Besides Ali, what heavyweight fought better competition than Norton in the 1970s?

[dempseyfire]

Garcia, Kirkman, O'Halloran, Lovell

Wow.

You clearly know dick about that era, because all of those guys had legitimate knockout power.

[elmersalsa]

Jerry Quarry had said he was drunk when he got the call to fight Ken Norton.
Alos he had about 3 weeks notice(or less),that is true,
but he had to arrange or get some to prepare the fight camp
and travele,make personal appearences etc.

Ken Norton beat him. That's the end of it. He was 3 years older than Jerry Quarry.

Norton did a number on Ali 3 Times. The only man in history that the Greatest couldn't beat.

Ok I just checked the record....and it says there that Ali won 2 out of three. Don't try to pull a fast one.....we got fact checkers here.


Anyway...the Norton and Quarry fight was not quite on a level playing field no matter how you stack it up. For reasons that most reasonable people who know the game would concede worth at least considering. Most of which have been mentioned.

Some records lie. Norton won all the 3 fights with The Greatest. I know he feels deep down inside that he won. And Norton understood the whole situation why he got dicked the last two. He never made a protest or felt wronged. He KNEW THE DEAL: He won and he went to the grave with that. He never cried about the outcome. A perfect gentleman. He knew that he wasn't just fighting a legend. He was fighting the judge$$$, the media, the promoters and the Madison Avenue bastards. He knew that it was a dirty business. lf he was alive and read this post, he would've been grinning from ear to ear.

[BoxBuzz]

Just cuz you say so? Now hold on a minute El Sriracha

You do recognize that many people who are good evaluators are mixed on these fights, correct?

Joe Frazier says Kenny won the third fight by 1 round. When your bestest buddy gives it to you by one....it's got to be close. The judges to this day feel they scored this fight accurately based on their view, and ability to evaluate. Not on some bunch of bias nonsense either way. The second fight was clearly won by Ali....and yep that's an opinion.

I think Norton may have won his fight with Holmes....what say you on that? I think Tua beat Ibeabuchi. But I don't believe in BigFoot or the Loch Ness Monster.

But just like Trinidad/DelLahoya and Mosley DLH II....there are lots of opinions that run counter to the outcome. Part of the game.

[elmersalsa]

Just cuz you say so? Now hold on a minute El Sriracha

You do recognize that many people who are good evaluators are mixed on these fights, correct?

Joe Frazier says Kenny won the third fight by 1 round. When your bestest buddy gives it to you by one....it's got to be close. The judges to this day feel they scored this fight accurately based on their view, and ability to evaluate. Not on some bunch of bias nonsense either way. The second fight was clearly won by Ali....and yep that's an opinion.

I think Norton may have won his fight with Holmes....what say you on that? I think Tua beat Ibeabuchi. But I don't believe in BigFoot or the Loch Ness Monster.

But just like Trinidad/DelLahoya and Mosley DLH II....there are lots of opinions that run counter to the outcome. Part of the game.

Baloney BoxBuzz! Every just observer that saw the 3 fights, knows that Ken Norton won outright. Too much money at stake for the great Muhammad Ali to lose a second time. You got to knock him out. Norton was not winning that fight under no promoters view and circumstances. He KNEW THE DEAL. He was not going against the grain. Once you are at that level of competition and lots of money to be involved, YOU CANNOT SHUT OFF THE CASH COW. Everybody got to make money out of Ali.

[elmersalsa]

The great Muhammad Ali in no circumstances won the second fight with Ken Norton. True sporstsmanship does not count in that level of competition. Too many $$$ are involved.

The third fight? worse! I imagine Norton's son watching his OWN daddy got the RAW DEAL. Unfair, but, that's what it is.

[BoxBuzz]

The great Muhammad Ali in no circumstances won the second fight with Ken Norton. True sporstsmanship does not count in that level of competition. Too many $$$ are involved.

The third fight? worse! I imagine Norton's son watching his OWN daddy got the RAW DEAL. Unfair, but, that's what it is.

Very often I find you to be unbias, in your thinking. Your opinion of the second fight..is not one of these times. And the idea that all three were anything other than very competitive fights.....is some of the best baloney ever sold.

[Ambling Alp II]

Would you mind pointing some of those times?

[BoxBuzz]

Would you mind pointing some of those times?

Too much pressure Alp, I'm a man not a machine.

[elmersalsa]

Anybody that believes that the great Muhammad Ali won the last two fights with Ken Norton gotta be delusional, blind or Ali-biased.

It's clear that Norton won all those 3 fights. He was not the cash cow, so, he understood that to the tee. Norton wasn't dumb, nor blind nor stupid to see this. He brushed it off like it ain't no thang. He knew the deal. That's makes him more likeable and more of a man given credit for. He never cried or bitch to the situation. Because he knew the bu$ine$$ of boxing. Especially, at that level of competition. There is no true sportsmanship at that level, but, CORRUPTION AND GREED. Norton was a SMART MAN.

He is THE ONLY MAN to beat Ali 3 times!

[Cojimar 1946]

I think Norton's ranking may suffer from an inability to handle punchers. People can point to the Ali and Holmes fights as examples of his ability but on the other side there are the quick kayo losses to Foreman and Shavers. The Shavers fight is only a year removed from the fight with Holmes? Was he really far past it at this stage?

[elmersalsa]

I think Norton's ranking may suffer from an inability to handle punchers. People can point to the Ali and Holmes fights as examples of his ability but on the other side there are the quick kayo losses to Foreman and Shavers. The Shavers fight is only a year removed from the fight with Holmes? Was he really far past it at this stage?

Well, maybe his fight with the great Larry Holmes took a toll on him. It was a brutal warfare. Plus, when he lost to Earnie Shavers, he was 36. Remember, this guy Norton had other brutal fights way before the Shavers fight. Would Shavers knock him out 5 years earlier? I don't know, but, it wouldn't be that easy.

[Ambling Alp II]

Foreman and Shavers are probably the two hardest punchers in the history of the sport.
How afar past his best he was against Shavers is hard question and I have said many times that I am on the fence.
Yes he was just a year removed form the Holmes fight. However, in 1976 Frazier and Ali were just a year removed from their 3rd Frazier fight in 1975 and nobody questions that they weren't as good. Your decline does have to start sometime.
I think he was past his best but not totally shot by the time he fought Shavers.

Really, my point is this: Why does Norton get ripped out for not being able to handle big punchers and other guys don't?

Schmeling for example got knocked by the great Gyspey Daniels, Baer, and Louis. Nobody says anything about it.

Walcott got knocked out by several different opponents in his career. How often do people say that Walcott didn't have a good chin?

[yancey]

Anybody that believes that the great Muhammad Ali won the last two fights with Ken Norton gotta be delusional, blind or Ali-biased.

It's clear that Norton won all those 3 fights. He was not the cash cow, so, he understood that to the tee. Norton wasn't dumb, nor blind nor stupid to see this. He brushed it off like it ain't no thang. He knew the deal. That's makes him more likeable and more of a man given credit for. He never cried or bitch to the situation. Because he knew the bu$ine$$ of boxing. Especially, at that level of competition. There is no true sportsmanship at that level, but, CORRUPTION AND GREED. Norton was a SMART MAN.

He is THE ONLY MAN to beat Ali 3 times!

I'll go for twice, but not thrice.

[yancey]

I'm a big fan of Norton but he is clearly not an ATG, his body of wins is simply not enough to elevate him to that status. If he could have added Frazier or Holmes to his w column then definitely but as it was I would call him the best non ATG of the 70's division.

Prime Joe Frazier pressures Norton out the building.

[Nile4000]

Ken is a definite top 30 guy, could see him beating Lewis, Bowe, possibly Tate and Coetzee.

[Tony1244]

Always quoted as being a pivotal part of the greatest ever era of heavyweight boxing, Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Norton and latter Holmes are the 5 kings of the 70s heavyweight scene. "Champions forever" as the DVD states

But does he belong in that company?

Obviously he was among those great fighters and gave Ali 3 tough fights, but lets look a little further into it

Boxrec has him 32nd well behind the lowest ranked of that era (Ali 1, Holmes 10, Frazier 15, Foreman 21)
He never actually won a world title,
he lost twice to Ali and the one he won Ali suffered a broken jaw (admittedly Norton was the one that broke it with a punch),
he was hammered by Foreman,
never faced Frazier
and was beaten by Holmes.

What were his standout wins other than that Ali fight?
Was it just a case that his style was a difficult one for Ali to overcome (as JMM is for Pacquiao) or was he really that close to Ali's level?

I've watched the big fights and there's no doubt he was a good fighter,
I haven't watched through many of his fights against 'lesser' fighters, perhaps that would shine a light on the matter

I've read a lot of criticism of Foreman and Holmes on here of late. but was this guy deserving of being named among these elite guys or just fortunate to have been around in a stacked era.

You talk about the fabulous 4, Hearns, Hagler, Duran and Leonard. Each has their merits, many will argue the case for each man being the best, but they all merit almost equal billing in that magnificent era. Does Norton fit so well with those other top heavyweights?

Norton was quite good. Watch him against Quarry, Middleton, Pedro Lovell, and Bobick. He had a good style for Ali as he was quick and could take Ali's punch. He talked about how everyone was trying to knock Ali out but his strategy to jab Ali back gave Muhammad fits. You get a good sense of Norton in the Quarry and Middleton fights. Norton beat Quarry in a similar way that Ali and Frazier did. Middleton had a close fight with Quarry but Ken broke LM down. Lovell was no great fighter, but you can see in that fight how Ken slowly broke his opponent down.

[Kalan]

Ken Norton is THE ONLY MAN, THAT BEAT THE GREATEST 3 TIMES!

He just got DICKED 2 out 3 by the judge$$$!

Absolutely!!! ... Norton won all 3 Ali fights.. I had him losing the Young fight close.. Holmes beat Norton by a much wider margin than the scorecards. Holmes won the first 5 rounds.. But Holmes was forced to brawl when his left biceps unraveled and he couldn't retract the jab properly.. He could jab fine, he just couldn't retract the punch well, leaving his chin hanging out.. so Larry was forced to mix and brawl, which made it a great fight.

Norton was a good, but not a great Heavyweight. His cross-armed defense made him susceptible to big punchers -- and Kenny fought more of them than Frazier did.. Shavers, Garcia, and Cooney also knocked him out... and quickly... He did extremely well with light hitting boxers like Young and Ali.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Ken Norton is THE ONLY MAN, THAT BEAT THE GREATEST 3 TIMES!

He just got DICKED 2 out 3 by the judge$$$!

Absolutely!!! ... Norton won all 3 Ali fights.. I had him losing the Young fight close.. Holmes beat Norton by a much wider margin than the scorecards. Holmes won the first 5 rounds.. But Holmes was forced to brawl when his left biceps unraveled and he couldn't retract the jab properly.. He could jab fine, he just couldn't retract the punch well, leaving his chin hanging out.. so Larry was forced to mix and brawl, which made it a great fight.

Norton was a good, but not a great Heavyweight. His cross-armed defense made him susceptible to big punchers -- and Kenny fought more of them than Frazier did.. Shavers, Garcia, and Cooney also knocked him out... and quickly... He did extremely well with light hitting boxers like Young and Ali.

ELMERSALSA AND KALAN THAT WILL DO ME I WAS THINKING READING THIS CRAP WHO THE HELL WOULD COME OUT WITH THIS SORT OF CRAP WELL STONE THE CROW'S IF I HAD TO HAVE A WILD GUESS I WOULD HAVE PICKED THESE TWO LEGEND BAGGER'S THEY ARE BOTH THE P4P KING'S AT PUTTING DOWN BOXING HOF'S

[Kalan]

Not putting anyone down. Norton was a good Heavyweight. Just assessing somebody's talent and accomplishments correctly. A 188-pound big underdog with 12 wins knocked Kenny right on his ear and finished him -- so nobody expected KN to beat Ali in a million years.. I believe the big, tall, fast, well trained and skilled Buster Douglas who fought Tyson would have beaten sh!t out of Norton. That cross-armed defense was nowhere for anybody who could box well and throw hard.

Ron Lyle would have done Kenny too no doubt. Lyle had the height, size, and power to mess with the cross-armed defense.. I noticed over the weekend when he fought MIkey Garcia.. Andrien Broner tried to change up his defense to a bit more orthodox approach.. Too late -- tough changing habits at 28.

[man]

he tends to be overrated. he was a second
tier fighter, but just by a very thin margin.
most top notch boxers have something about
them that is special. ali was fast, frazier was
swarming, foreman was powerful, these were
their features which stood out.

norton in my opinion had nothing special, but
was solid in each department. he could box,
had a punch, could take a shot and that
combination made him competitive at top level.
but being a contender is not the same as being
champion.

having said that in many other eras he could
have made even more of an impact. he, ron lyle,
earnie shavers and jimmy young were second
tier in their time, but in the early eighties or
the early 2000 these man could have been
quite something.

sidenote: this man maybe had the best physique
in boxing history.

[man]

Ken is a definite top 30 guy, could see him beating Lewis, Bowe, possibly Tate and Coetzee.

around thirty would seem right to me.
he could give some top guys other than
ali upsets, if styles match nicely for him.

prime for prime tyson - norton would
have been quite something, since there
was no fear in ken norton.