Muhammad Ali

[Scarecrow]

(I didn't join to argue or make enemies.... I had to say that first )
Does anyone else think that Ali was horribly overrated? Seriously. Don't Not Comment if you do cause you're afraid of backlash, say it or at least pm me so I know I'm not alone.

He was tough.Moved well.But he slapped and flopped around so much. A lot of time I feel like I'm in the twilight zone when I read and hear about how great he was.
I think a lot of guys would have beaten him.
Joe Louis being one.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful to him cause he was a Champion and an Olympian.I just don't think he's anywhere near as good as what is claimed.
I know a lot will say I'm wrong but surely someone else agrees.

[witherspoon]

I'm not scared of no backlash.
I absolutely 100% agree that you don't think Ali is as good as some people claim he was.

[elmersalsa]

He was a great fighter, no question about that. He transcendent the sport and is perhaps the most famous person in the planet alongside the great footballer Pele.

I believe he is the best heavyweight ever in history.
I believe he is a top 10 ATG pound per pound fighter. In my view, at #8 spot
I believe in my view, he lost to Ken Norton 3 times
I believe that he lost in the biggest and much anticipated fight of all time, TFOC. Was he in his prime on that defeat? Some people say yes.

[Scarecrow]

Thank you. I don't agree (I do with Witherspoon:) )
But respect your opinion much.
I myself, just don't see his greatness but everyone sees differently.He was agile and rugged but I see a lot of " greats" that I disagree with. At the same time, I know plenty I probably think are great are looked down on.thank you

[ClivePatrickLyons]

I believe you don't really KNOW much about Boxing Ali was at his best in the 60's when he was untouchable.......... he is the most complete heavyweight in history of boxing you only have to watch another all time great tee off on him for 10 round's in Holmes his corner pleaded with
Holmes to knock Ali out a version of Ali that should never have been within 100 yard's of a boxing ring he was clearly unfit to box that fight more so then the Liston/Foreman/Frazier/Cleveland Williams fights or any other fight for that matter proved to me he is and to this day the GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION IN HISTORY :yay...............I believe fighter's lack a little something in other department's when their excellent in certain area's like in the Power department if you are a KO artist [Huge Puncher] then you are usually a slow puncher and some times even slow
on your feet imagine say a GGG with the speed of a Roy Jones Jr........ fu.k that's mind blowing or would it be un-natural but anyway Ali besides
Punching Power I Don't think any-one could match him as a alround [complete] fighter thats my opinion his hand speed/foot speed/brain/chin
who can match his all round ability not many if any.

[Scarecrow]

I believe you don't really KNOW much about Boxing Ali was at his best in the 60's when he was untouchable.......... he is the most complete heavyweight in history of boxing you only have to watch another all time great tee off on him for 10 round's in Holmes his corner pleaded with
Holmes to knock Ali out a version of Ali that should never have been within 100 yard's of a boxing ring he was clearly unfit to box that fight more so then the Liston/Foreman/Frazier/Cleveland Williams fights or any other fight for that matter proved to me he is and to this day the GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION IN HISTORY :yay...............I believe fighter's lack a little something in other department's when their excellent in certain area's like in the Power department if you are a KO artist [Huge Puncher] then you are usually a slow puncher and some times even slow
on your feet imagine say a GGG with the speed of a Roy Jones Jr........ fu.k that's mind blowing or would it be un-natural but anyway Ali besides
Punching Power I Don't think any-one could match him as a alround [complete] fighter thats my opinion his hand speed/foot speed/brain/chin
who can match his all round ability not many if any.

You're right. I don't know anything about boxing. Ali would have beat everyone before and after. I'm surprised he's not still champion.

[yancey]

He was a great fighter, no question about that. He transcendent the sport and is perhaps the most famous person in the planet alongside the great footballer Pele.

I believe he is the best heavyweight ever in history.
I believe he is a top 10 ATG pound per pound fighter. In my view, at #8 spot
I believe in my view, he lost to Ken Norton 3 times
I believe that he lost in the biggest and much anticipated fight of all time, TFOC. Was he in his prime on that defeat? Some people say yes.

I can buy all of the above, except I'm okay with the decision win he got in the second Norton fight.

I have Ali and Louis tit for tat at the top for all-time heavies, giving much credit to their length of time at or near the top.

H2H, in a battle of absolute primes, there is only one Ali contemporary and earlier fighter that I think takes him in a 15 round fight. A swarming left-hooker from Philly.

[Scypion]

When you think about it, the thing that really separates Ali from the other heavyweights of his era is George Foreman. If not for Foreman, then Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier would be probably considered about even. The fact that Ali knocked out Foreman and Foreman knocked out Frazier twice is what puts Ali above Frazier, I think.

Without George Foreman, then Frazier's record would only have his 2 losses to Muhammad Ali, and he might have held the heavyweight title through most of the 1970's. Just something to think about.

[Syntax Error]

(I didn't join to argue or make enemies.... I had to say that first )
Does anyone else think that Ali was horribly overrated? Seriously. Don't Not Comment if you do cause you're afraid of backlash, say it or at least pm me so I know I'm not alone.

He was tough.Moved well.But he slapped and flopped around so much. A lot of time I feel like I'm in the twilight zone when I read and hear about how great he was.
I think a lot of guys would have beaten him.
Joe Louis being one.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful to him cause he was a Champion and an Olympian.I just don't think he's anywhere near as good as what is claimed.
I know a lot will say I'm wrong but surely someone else agrees.

Contrary to unpopular belief, you don't have to apologise for having an opinion.

If you believe that Muhammad Ali was overrated, then you're perfectly entitled to think that.

I don't agree with you one iota, but I would never denigrate someone just because they don't agree with me.

[evrenb]

When you think about it, the thing that really separates Ali from the other heavyweights of his era is George Foreman. If not for Foreman, then Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier would be probably considered about even. The fact that Ali knocked out Foreman and Foreman knocked out Frazier twice is what puts Ali above Frazier, I think.

Without George Foreman, then Frazier's record would only have his 2 losses to Muhammad Ali, and he might have held the heavyweight title through most of the 1970's. Just something to think about.

I have to disagree. Ali was a top fighter from 1963 to 1979. Frazier had far less fights and was on top for a short period. Ali faced more competition too...Frazier never faced Patterson, Liston, Terrell, Norton, Lyle, Shavers... Among many others.
Not to say he couldn't have defeated them.....just fact.

[yancey]

When you think about it, the thing that really separates Ali from the other heavyweights of his era is George Foreman. If not for Foreman, then Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier would be probably considered about even. The fact that Ali knocked out Foreman and Foreman knocked out Frazier twice is what puts Ali above Frazier, I think.

Without George Foreman, then Frazier's record would only have his 2 losses to Muhammad Ali, and he might have held the heavyweight title through most of the 1970's. Just something to think about.

I have to disagree. Ali was a top fighter from 1963 to 1979. Frazier had far less fights and was on top for a short period. Ali faced more competition too...Frazier never faced Patterson, Liston, Terrell, Norton, Lyle, Shavers... Among many others.
Not to say he couldn't have defeated them.....just fact.

Agree, Frazier had a short peak.

That is pretty common with swarmer type of fighters.

[Ketchel]

Great fighters are judged by who they fought, when they fought them, winning fights when they were the underdog and if they can comeback from adversity. Ali displayed all the attributes needed to be considered great. Most of the top fighters he fought he did so in their primes. He was a heavy underdog against both Liston and Foreman but stopped both men who were at the time considered unbeatable.

[man]

I think a lot of guys would have beaten him.

no. not a lot. i think you are entitled to
your opinion and to a reasonable debate, but ali
was not only a loudmouth, he was a great, great
boxer. ali vs louis both 25 years old ... anything
can happen, but it is certainly not a shutout for
louis.

ali was very good very early on. there is no denying
this and there is as well no doubt that he missed
three years of his prime. for other boxers that is
the only part of their career where they achieve
anything.

yes, ken norton had his number, but that doesn't
mean so much. this happens in boxing, some
other guy is just your kryptonite. no shame.

i understand that the noise around him as well
as the one he created himself can be annoying
(i for one think what he did to joe frazier was
an utter disgrace), but when you have a neutral
look on his record: very, very few names are on
par with it.

[Scarecrow]

I appreciate the replies. I've been wrong plenty and sadly will be again.
But just in my opinion, I think he was overrated. I remember growing up like so many others in love with Ali.He was fast, tough and agile.
But over time began to think it was more style over substance.
I've seen most of what's available and got the feeling it was more entertainment than fighting.

Styles make fights and it seems he was always a step ahead of his competition. But who knows? I've seen a sure thing turn upside down and blow my mind a few times. Look at tyson- Douglas. Thank you guys.

[Ambling Alp II]

During his prime, in title fights he was 10-0 with 8 KOs and two lopsided decisions against good competition.
Past his prime, he was still the best heavyweight of the best era in heavyweight boxing history.

During his prime, his hand speed and reflexes were off the charts. He was extremely difficult to hit and he was great offensively. He had a great jab and threw phenomenal combinations.

After his reflexes diminished, he was much easier to hit. However, he had a great heart and a great chin which enabled him take shots that almost no one else could. His hand speed declined great as well, however he was a smart fighter who usually found ways to adapt.

Perhaps his most underrated strength was his accuracy. Punching accuracy is something is almost never talked about even though it is so important. Ali was a very accurate puncher.

[littlepug]

never really been a fan, thought he was a lazy fighter with a lazy style and a way overated defence, on the plus side he had good footwork a terrific jab and bucket loads of heart, theres also no getting away from the fact that practically every significant heavyweight of his era is on his record so that alone deserves respect.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

--- Sadly Americans are generally too insecure and fainthearted to box with any traditional form, thus the TUE 49-0 hoopla of the greatest farce perpetuated in sports.

Saint Ali pretty much started it, not so much him as his management and the suits that control the dirtiest sport in history. Disputed wins over Cooper and Jones landed him the Liston bout that was expected to be a Liston walkover. Instead we got two more controversial wins for Ali that just don't pass the sniff test. No way a mob fighter quits a bout unless told to, and the whole anchor punch/Jersey Joe farce played out utterly ridiculous, more WWE than a credible sport for grown men to debate.

The controversies continued through the whole of his career that he never suffered a loss from, the last two Norton fights, Young, Shavers, Lyle, and let's face facts, little toothless Leon whipped him from pillar to post, and what heavyweight champion loses to such a pitty patty, glass chinned goof? Too many other tubby, disinterested bouts where he did next to nothing more than his journeymen opponents. Don't ever watch the Rudy Lubber fight in Indonesia unless you wish to have all respect for boxing experts that proclaim his greatness.

The decline of American boxing domination can be seen in the decline of the American empire in general that has been fiddling away in their circle of power jerks as American culture and worldwide respect is going up in flames.

I will say this, in his prime he was an impressive one off talent and he had more than just basic charisma, he had a magical quality that seemed to follow him like a pot of gold at the end of his rainbow through all his down cycles. He is arguably the best known person on the planet even at this late stage of his life. He wasn't the brightest, but he spoke from his heart and made significant personal changes that have rightly enhanced his image, but not his boxing. It stands out in all it's Good, Bad, and Ugly, but the world would be much poorer without him. Don't cry for him Argentina, he got an estimated $ billion bucks out of selling the rights to market his name and likeness, so his family will always be around to set everyone straight about who was the greatest.

[elmersalsa]

--- Sadly Americans are generally too insecure and fainthearted to box with any traditional form, thus the TUE 49-0 hoopla of the greatest farce perpetuated in sports.

Saint Ali pretty much started it, not so much him as his management and the suits that control the dirtiest sport in history. Disputed wins over Cooper and Jones landed him the Liston bout that was expected to be a Liston walkover. Instead we got two more controversial wins for Ali that just don't pass the sniff test. No way a mob fighter quits a bout unless told to, and the whole anchor punch/Jersey Joe farce played out utterly ridiculous, more WWE than a credible sport for grown men to debate.

The controversies continued through the whole of his career that he never suffered a loss from, the last two Norton fights, Young, Shavers, Lyle, and let's face facts, little toothless Leon whipped him from pillar to post, and what heavyweight champion loses to such a pitty patty, glass chinned goof? Too many other tubby, disinterested bouts where he did next to nothing more than his journeymen opponents. Don't ever watch the Rudy Lubber fight in Indonesia unless you wish to have all respect for boxing experts that proclaim his greatness.

The decline of American boxing domination can be seen in the decline of the American empire in general that has been fiddling away in their circle of power jerks as American culture and worldwide respect is going up in flames.

I will say this, in his prime he was an impressive one off talent and he had more than just basic charisma, he had a magical quality that seemed to follow him like a pot of gold at the end of his rainbow through all his down cycles. He is arguably the best known person on the planet even at this late stage of his life. He wasn't the brightest, but he spoke from his heart and made significant personal changes that have rightly enhanced his image, but not his boxing. It stands out in all it's Good, Bad, and Ugly, but the world would be much poorer without him. Don't cry for him Argentina, he got an estimated $ billion bucks out of selling the rights to market his name and likeness, so his family will always be around to set everyone straight about who was the greatest.

Great post, man. Classy.

[tiny_acres]

I am trying to word this post as to not sound like a complete ass.
Ali is over rated by some in the sense that most people today will not even entertain the thought that Ali could and would struggle with several fighters.
I do consider Ali to be at the very least a top 3 Heavyweight in history.With a very good claim at the number 1 spot.

But to dismiss that he could not lose to numerous other fighters and struggle with way more than that is insane and shows the part about being over rated.
I hope this makes sense.

[SteveO]

I think a lot of guys would have beaten him. Joe Louis being one.

You mentioned Joe Louis (would have been a terrific matchup) but please name a few others you think would definitely have beaten him.
Prime for prime I can't think of any.

[elmersalsa]

I am trying to word this post as to not sound like a complete ass.
Ali is over rated by some in the sense that most people today will not even entertain the thought that Ali could and would struggle with several fighters.
I do consider Ali to be at the very least a top 3 Heavyweight in history.With a very good claim at the number 1 spot.

But to dismiss that he could not lose to numerous other fighters and struggle with way more than that is insane and shows the part about being over rated.
I hope this makes sense.

Nobody's invincible. Every boxer has or had their pros and cons to be considered. Ali was great, no question about that. But, sometimes the media gets carried away too much out of him. Could be that he was the most entertaining inside and outside the ring? That could be a factor. Could it be he became larger than life outside the U.S. by fighting the government about the Vietnam draft? Many around the world know who he is because of that part of history than his boxing accomplishments

[cfang]

Ali is not overated on these forums. He may be somewhat by those who don't know boxing but if you want to decide on any sort of rational that makes a boxer great, Ali ticks every box and this is not up for debate.

historical impact, longevity, quality of opposition, bravery, coming back and winning when everything was against him, revolutionary, crossover appeal, historical legacy - he ticks all boxes.

Was he the greatest heavy ever? Well an argument could be made for louis, Ive got them together at #1.

Was he the greatest p4p ever? Well id say not. There are probably a good half dozen with better records but hes top ten for sure.

[Ezzard]

Brilliant HW. Probably the best ever. He gets my vote.

[Rexob]

The ALi of the 60s was the greatest ever heavyweight pure brilliance! it took a few years out and being at bit past it for every other heavyweight to be on a even playing field with him and he still whopped most of them! Along with his gift of the gab and sense of humour you would have to say he was The greatest even though i dont agree with a lot of what he stood for.

[BoxBuzz]

I think LoZo should have the final say on this. He probably would have the fairest opinion.


Wonder where he is?