Anthony Joshua and Lennox Lewis Comparisons.

[CharlesListon]

I've been giving some thought to the similarities and differences between these two boxers. Obviously both turned pro after winning Olympic Gold and quite rightly we have (had in the case of Lennox) high expectations of them.

Both turned pro at around 24 years of age. Physically Lennox has a recorded height of 6'5 to AJ's 6'6, whilst Lennox boasted a reach of 84'' to AJ's 82". Lennox's weight varied between 224lbs to 234lbs over his first 14 fights and AJ has been between 229lbs and just over 249lbs. Not a massive amount of difference although its clear that AJ has a much more muscular physique compared to Lennox's lithe frame of that time.

Time-wise Lennox took 15 months to get to 14 fights whereas AJ had his 14th bout just a month short of 2 years from his debut. Lennox's 14th bout was against the useful and experienced Chanet, for the European title and AJ's was for the vacant british, commonwealth and largely pointless (ranking aside) WBC International belt (which he already held)

Looking at and comparing opponents is more tricky. Some of Lennox's early opponents clearly had a better pedigree than most of AJ's. Lennox's debut was against Al Malcolm who had been a midlands area champion and had been in (and lost to) a couple of future british champions. Whilst AJ's debut was against an undefeated opponent, he hadn't been in with anyone of note. You could argue and make a case for Johnson and Bakhtov being as good as some of Lennox's early UK and Canadian based opposition.

I've been re-watching Lennox's early fights and he certainly isn't as destructive as AJ has been and does take a few shots (and holds them very well). We've yet to see AJ take a shot and he has pretty much walked through and destroyed everyone in front of him. Whether this is down to the level of opponent is largely subjective, as of course is this entire post.

My point, or question is how do they compare to date and how do you think they will compare in years to come? Will AJ emulate the fantastic and often under-appreciated career of Lewis? (who I believe is in the top 5 greatest heavyweight champions of all time).

I am on the AJ hype-wagon and feel quite excited about how he's going to progress. Lewis was in a better/harder era, with Holyfield, Tyson, Bowe (although they obviously didnt get to meet in the pros) and Vitali compared to Wlad, Povetkin, Wilder etc but I don't think AJ can be held accountable for that.

Anyhow, what do you think. Have a look at some of Lennox's early fights and see if you come to the same conclusions as me.

I did start to compare Audley's career along with these two, but the signs were probably there by the 14th fight that he wasn't going to emulate Lennox Lewis.

[forestbox]

Very smillar.they both blown away early opponents and the Olympic god medal.its just will Joshua do what Lewis has done?

[johnswan1]

Some good points.

The biggest question over AJ is whether he is a natural fighter. By that I mean, what happens when he gets hit. Can he take a punch and if he's under pressure does he remain calm and cover up, does he know how to survive if he gets hurt? Can he pick himself up and fight on when everything is against him?

The guy hasn't had a single competitive round his whole pro career so far and is severely lacking in rounds experience.

Go back to any of the greatest champions or hardest hitters in the sports history and you will see that the one thing they all had in common is that they had tough fights on their way up and often also close fights which helped their development.

On paper this is the first guy who isn't just perceived as durable but also one who poses a legitimate threat, unlike Cornish who although young and undefeated had no power and was completely out of his depth and old farts who were once durable but are now at the end of their careers.

[CharlesListon]

Yes.... I was watching Lewis v Quarless earlier and whilst Lewis got him out of there in the 2nd, Quarless really came to fight and caught him a couple of times with good right hands.
The only person who I really believe tried to have a go against AJ was Dorian Darch, who really did try his best but who's record suggests he doesn't hold a significant amount of power.

[Sklar]

Lennox was considerably more experienced and accomplished when he turned pro - don't forget that Seoul was his second Olympic games.

Lennox is a naturally bigger guy, he didn't do heavy weights or bodybuilding, but has a large frame and is deceptively strong but due to his natural athletcism, strength training and what not, AJ is probably more of a physical handful.

AJ isn't anywhere near as switched on and boxing smart as Lennox and he never will be.

[ILoveHowardFoster]

Until someone can actually land a good clean punch on AJ, we won't know just how good he is.

Will he go down? If he does, will he get up? Will his legs wobble? Will he go into his shell and stay there? Will he fight back? Still a mountain of questions unanswered, as all we have seen so far, is him on the attack.

You're right, Darch had a go, but didn't have the power to trouble him.

[CharlesListon]

I think we all agree that AJ is untested so far.

How do his first 14 fights compare to Lewis's first 14 and was Lewis tested by his 14th fight?

[jamesmcdonnell]

Lennox was considerably more experienced and accomplished when he turned pro - don't forget that Seoul was his second Olympic games.

Lennox is a naturally bigger guy, he didn't do heavy weights or bodybuilding, but has a large frame and is deceptively strong but due to his natural athletcism, strength training and what not, AJ is probably more of a physical handful.

AJ isn't anywhere near as switched on and boxing smart as Lennox and he never will be.

I'd agree with that assessment. Lewis like Bowe, was a naturally huge man - AJ has clearly manufactured that physique through weight training, nobody is built like that naturally. Lennox never looked ripped, because looking ripped really doesn't do anything for you other than make you look good for yourself.

There's nothing to suggest that bigger muscles help you punch harder, it's about being explosive, which is more to do with timing than anything else, and being able to leverage your mass into the punch, by transferring mass and building momentum.

Joshua might be physically stronger - though I recall that Lennox Lewis was able to Bench a pretty hefty amount, but that doesn't necessarily convey much advantage when it comes to throwing punches, and whenever he does finally get extended and/or forced to fight at a pace, those huge muscles are going to burn through the oxygen like hot pepper sauce through a 90 year old's ringpiece.

[Bard of Boxrec]

like hot pepper sauce through a 90 year old's ringpiece.

classic jimmyMcD simile school

[Taansend]

Great post by the OP.

My own feelings (which could change tomorrow) is that Lewis is more talented but Joshua is more powerful & more focused.

Lewis had a habit of looking too far ahead while Joshua seems to have his head screwed on to looking ONLY at the next opponent.

I'm still not wholly convinced by Joshua but that's not because of anything he's done. That's just conditioning from watching UK heavies since the mid 70's - although recent years have been more ups than downs.

I read talk of Joshua v Chisora if he gets past Whyte but I'd love to see him against the winner of Teper Helenius.

[Supremo]

Joshua has had it all very very quickly and very very easily- When you get success, wealth, or anything else worthwhile too easily then there is a tendency not to appreciate it as you haven't had to work as hard for it and make the sacrifices like others have. Therefore, I think there could be question marks against his toughness and desire to keep going when the going gets tough- which it eventually will. He has had everything his own way so far in both the amateurs and pros, so it will be very interesting to see how he reacts when he comes up against a set back.

Tend to agree with the lad above that the jury is out on his stamina as he is so excessively bulky that it is bound to have a negative impact upon his ability to last the pace. Obviously him and his team believe that the benefits of the additional bulk in imposing himself on opponents out weigh the subsequent disadvantage when it comes to supplying them with oxygen.

I am also not going to make any slanderous allegations about how he came to be so muscle bound- but if you look at his build a few years ago and compare it to now it is absolutely astounding. How he could build so much muscle, in such a short space of time, particularly when he is doing so much muscle wasting cardio training is very suspicous.....

[Counter-puncher]

I am also not going to make any slanderous allegations about how he came to be so muscle bound- but if you look at his build a few years ago and compare it to now it is absolutely astounding. How he could build so much muscle, in such a short space of time, particularly when he is doing so much muscle wasting cardio training is very suspicous.....

i belive if you asked Greg Lemond about it he would say his phyqique is 'unbelievable....unbelievable...unbelievable'

[tobyh5]

Lennox seemed to always flow better, have better athleticism with bags of natural fighting ability which were honed with good trainers and instruction. AJ has a slight Bruno robotic feel to him but is hugely powerful which could make it difficult for people to exploit this. But that muscle bulk may see him tire as a fight progesses, leaving him open to being clubbed around ala Witherspoon v Bruno.

I am sure AJ is fit, but in a fight that is not going to plan, shipping a few punches, seeing the other guy soak up your shots etc can start to drain on you, on top of carrying all the muscle around.

I think Lennox is far superior to anything AJ will become, but I think AJ can go far due to limitations in heavyweights today.

[CharlesListon]

For what it's worth I think Lewis had far the better, more relevant physique for boxing success and pretty much agree with everything that has been said regarding skill.

I don't think there is anything suspicious about AJ's physique. He is obviously a full time pro and nutrition and sports science have developed drastically since even the relatively recent days of Lewis. Whilst its true that bigger muscles require more oxygen to function than smaller muscles I think that the way training and nutrition has developed; goes at least some way to reducing the adverse effect that we witnessed with muscle bound guys gassing out in the past. There are a whole host of ingredients that help make a dynamite punch, including timing and power (of which strength is a component along with speed). AJ's legs are as impressive as his biceps and chest and far more relevant for hard punching attributes.

We'll never know who hits the hardest out of either Lennox or AJ, or any other boxer for that matter but its abundantly clear that AJ hits fast and hard.

I don't think AJ can compete with the legacy of Lewis as there isn't a Tyson or a Holyfield for him to face, either now or on the horizon. But we were saying the same thing back in the early 90's comparing Lewis to a pre-prison Tyson and the greats of the golden era of the 70's. I've been reading some old Boxing Illustrated and Ring magazines of the late 60's and 70's and similar things were said back then, about guys considered to be absolute legends now compared to Joe Louis et al.
How much of this negativity, lack of belief, or reluctance to jump on the bandwagon is purely down to this perfectly natural historical snobbery?
Or is it a case of we've had high hopes before in relation to Price, Harrison and to a lesser degree Dallas and don't won't to be wrong or upset again?

If AJ has a good chin....and there is no reason to suspect he hasn't (although we kind of lean towards the fact he may not) and if his power is as awesome as we have seen in 14 fights in (at best) mixed or limited company is there any reason to suspect that he won't win world titles and hold them for a long time?

I suspect he will and in 25 years time we'll be saying that some as yet unborn pretender couldn't hold a candle to AJ.

[Supremo]

For what it's worth I think Lewis had far the better, more relevant physique for boxing success and pretty much agree with everything that has been said regarding skill.

I don't think there is anything suspicious about AJ's physique. He is obviously a full time pro and nutrition and sports science have developed drastically since even the relatively recent days of Lewis. Whilst its true that bigger muscles require more oxygen to function than smaller muscles I think that the way training and nutrition has developed; goes at least some way to reducing the adverse effect that we witnessed with muscle bound guys gassing out in the past. There are a whole host of ingredients that help make a dynamite punch, including timing and power (of which strength is a component along with speed). AJ's legs are as impressive as his biceps and chest and far more relevant for hard punching attributes.

We'll never know who hits the hardest out of either Lennox or AJ, or any other boxer for that matter but its abundantly clear that AJ hits fast and hard.

I don't think AJ can compete with the legacy of Lewis as there isn't a Tyson or a Holyfield for him to face, either now or on the horizon. But we were saying the same thing back in the early 90's comparing Lewis to a pre-prison Tyson and the greats of the golden era of the 70's. I've been reading some old Boxing Illustrated and Ring magazines of the late 60's and 70's and similar things were said back then, about guys considered to be absolute legends now compared to Joe Louis et al.
How much of this negativity, lack of belief, or reluctance to jump on the bandwagon is purely down to this perfectly natural historical snobbery?
Or is it a case of we've had high hopes before in relation to Price, Harrison and to a lesser degree Dallas and don't won't to be wrong or upset again?

If AJ has a good chin....and there is no reason to suspect he hasn't (although we kind of lean towards the fact he may not) and if his power is as awesome as we have seen in 14 fights in (at best) mixed or limited company is there any reason to suspect that he won't win world titles and hold them for a long time?

I suspect he will and in 25 years time we'll be saying that some as yet unborn pretender couldn't hold a candle to AJ.

It is the rapid weight gain he has achieved in such a short space of time that is suspicious. Most body builders would kill to gain so much lean mass and they would be focusing purely on gaining muscle and taking every steroid under the sun. He obviously is genetically gifted....but is he THAT genetically gifted??

[coneye]

Olympic medals aside , and A.J 's was a gimme he did'nt win , he got the nod but he sure did'nt desrve it ,, Anyway Olympics aside i don't think you can compare these two ... If you want to compare Lewiss to anyone , pick another great ,, you want to compare AJ to anyone ,, then look no further than Bruno

[CharlesListon]

OK...Bruno..(who I respect and admire immensely)

All I'm asking is this...how does AJ compare to Lennox after the first 14 fights?

Bruno won the ABA's in a hotly disputed decision against Rudi Pika. That decision was more widely disputed than that of AJ's Gold Medal bout. His first 14 fights were not particularly impressive in terms of opponent.

I've met him personally and he admits and actually volunteers that he was not ready or prepared to face James Smith and that losing was probably the best result for his career in the long term.

In his 19th fight he (again in his own words) dodged a bullet against Jumbo Cummings.

In terms of amateur pedigree and performance in the early stages of a pro career I would say that AJ has been more impressive than Frank Bruno.

[Andrew]

I think we all agree that AJ is untested so far.

How do his first 14 fights compare to Lewis's first 14 and was Lewis tested by his 14th fight?

Lewis won the European title in his 14th fight as a pro dunno if the guy he beat was good though. He beat Gary Mason in his 15th which I know was a world title eliminator before my time but I am aware that Mason was highly regarded.

Not comparable for me AJ IMO should never have got the gold but Lewis was awesome v Bowe in the 88 final. At 18 AJ started boxing and Lewis was in his first Olympics.

AJ has done extremely well considering when he started boxing but as a pro we need to see if he can take a shot or defend.

[Syntax Error]

Lewis' competition was far superior to Joshua's.

Talent wise, it's not easy to say because although Joshua looks well schooled, he hasn't fought anyone yet, whereas Lewis was reckless & over reliant on his big Right at that stage in his career.

[dominik]

I think that lewis has more power than AJ. wrote already in another thread that AJ stopped his opponents early but he all hit them multiple times flush and they get up after the first KD. many of lewis opponents of course also got up but he also had some one Punch KOs.

did AJ have any one Punch KO were he did not hit his Opponent with a flurry of punches?

AJ certainly has some good power but he did not have those devastating one Punch KOs like Lennox or wlad occasionally did (you know those were the Opponent is down and out for half a Minute after being hit by a single Punch).

[jamesmcdonnell]

What worries me about Joshua, is that because of the level of competition he's faced, he's not developing his fighters instincts. Big punching always looks impressive, and smashing people unconscious is very seductive, but if you keep fighting stiffs, and then suddenly you're confronted with a guy who not only doesn't crumple after the first serious assault, but punches back. When you've been bowling them over so easily, it's a big shock.

Frank Bruno found that out to his cost, and he complained that he felt his handlers protected him far too much in his early career by putting him in with stiffs.

I'm not sold on Joshua yet, I've seen phenomenal punchers before who came unstuck - he could be another - time will tell.

[Boxing Writer]

I see a lot of people comparing here well pre-prime (current) version of Joshua to prime version of Lewis, because pre-Steward Lewis wasn't even 30% as good as he became later. He was extremely talented but VERY raw. Under Steward's guidance Lennox improved dramatically his jab, his defense, his accuracy. He started to box smarter and wasn't looking only to land his big right hand. Pre-Steward version of Lewis looked impressive only against Ruddock. He looked far from good against old small cruiserweight Ossie Ocasio, glass-jawed bum Levi Billups (he didn't even stop them), low-level European journeyman Jean-Maurice Chanet, shot Tony Tucker, journeyman Phil Jackson and very limited Frank Bruno. I can't imagime Phil Jackson going 8 rounds against 96-03 version of Lewis, I can't imagine Tony Tucker finishing the fight on his feet against 96-03 version of Lewis and I definitely can't imagine Steward's version of Lewis being outboxed for 6 rounds by Frank Bruno.

I think Joshua now looks better than Lewis looked at the same stage of his career, but it remains to be seen if Joshua can make such a huge progress, as Lewis did under Steward's guidance. It's a very big question.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think that lewis has more power than AJ. wrote already in another thread that AJ stopped his opponents early but he all hit them multiple times flush and they get up after the first KD. many of lewis opponents of course also got up but he also had some one Punch KOs.

did AJ have any one Punch KO were he did not hit his Opponent with a flurry of punches?

AJ certainly has some good power but he did not have those devastating one Punch KOs like Lennox or wlad occasionally did (you know those were the Opponent is down and out for half a Minute after being hit by a single Punch).

Lewis' KO of Rahman, was as hard a punch as I've ever seen. If you look where Lewis glove ends up after the punch, it's almost at floor level, he threw his entire weight into that huge right cross. Rahman certainly didn't have a bad chin either, and he entirely separated from his senses.

[Boxing Writer]

I think that lewis has more power than AJ. wrote already in another thread that AJ stopped his opponents early but he all hit them multiple times flush and they get up after the first KD. many of lewis opponents of course also got up but he also had some one Punch KOs.

did AJ have any one Punch KO were he did not hit his Opponent with a flurry of punches?

AJ certainly has some good power but he did not have those devastating one Punch KOs like Lennox or wlad occasionally did (you know those were the Opponent is down and out for half a Minute after being hit by a single Punch).

Lewis' KO of Rahman, was as hard a punch as I've ever seen. If you look where Lewis glove ends up after the punch, it's almost at floor level, he threw his entire weight into that huge right cross. Rahman certainly didn't have a bad chin either, and he entirely separated from his senses.

Maskaev KO'ed him even "colder"

[jamesmcdonnell]

I see a lot of people comparing here well pre-prime (current) version of Joshua to prime version of Lewis, because pre-Steward Lewis wasn't even 30% as good as he became later. He was extremely talented but VERY raw. Under Steward's guidance Lennox improved dramatically his jab, his defense, his accuracy. He started to box smarter and wasn't looking only to land his big right hand. Pre-Steward version of Lewis looked impressive only against Ruddock. He looked far from good against old small cruiserweight Ossie Ocasio, glass-jawed bum Levi Billups (he didn't even stop them), low-level European journeyman Jean-Maurice Chanet, shot Tony Tucker, journeyman Phil Jackson and very limited Frank Bruno. I can't imagime Phil Jackson going 8 rounds against 96-03 version of Lewis, I can't imagine Tony Tucker finishing the fight on his feet against 96-03 version of Lewis and I definitely can't imagine Steward's version of Lewis being outboxed for 6 rounds by Frank Bruno.

I think Joshua now looks better than Lewis looked at the same stage of his career, but it remains to be seen if Joshua can make such a huge progress, as Lewis did under Steward's guidance. It's a very big question.

Yes that is true. Joshua looks better in the sense he's not been troubled, but the opposition has been very feeble.