Which heavyweight champ had the weakest title challengers ??

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Perhaps he would have even done it by 1955 against Rocky Marciano.

bill lockhart,

so ur telling me a guy who lost to a 179lb journeyman and was not even considered a contender is going to suddenly beat the heavyweight champion of the world?


liston was far too green and inexperienced to even compete with marciano in 55.


a prime 1960 liston fight vs prime marciano can go either way, i wont argue but to say a 55 liston beats marciano is like saying a 1960 muhammad ali beats sonny liston.

[bill.lockhart]

Brock & Decagon
I don't think history would have been altered much if Rocky had continued on for another year & a half. Liston would have beaten Floyd in 58 had he got the chance. He wasn't deserving of it though. He didn't even break into the ratings until some time in 58. If Rocky retired by mid 57, which would have allowed him 3 more fights at the pace he had been on, Floyd would still have emerged as the best of the lot, by late 57 or early 58. D'amato wouldn't have gone for a Patterson- Marciano fight for no other reason than he didn't need it. I don't think Rocky would have went for it either, for the very same reason. Both fighters had a lot more to lose than gain. I think Rocky might have made title defences against Valdes & Jackson in 1956. Whether he fought into 1957 we'll never know. if he did I don't think it would have been against Patterson for the reasons I've mentionrd. He may have fought a safe opponet as a much deserved farewell to the game. Patterson still would have emerged champion no later than June of 58. Machen, Folley, Jackson. Moore, Johnson or Pastrano would not have beaten him. Liston was not yet a factor. Rocky would have had to continue fighting on into 58 or even 59 by which time a Patterson - Marciano fight would have taken place.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

You don't think D'amato would put Patterson in with Marciano? I think Cus would have jumped at the opportunity, and I think Patterson would have been knocked out.

in 1956 cus D amato said patterson was a year away from being ready. there was talk going around then that D amato did not want to send patterson in against rocky until he noticed signs of rocky slowing down.


as for the match prime for prime


marciano KO 2 patterson- patterson was tailor made for marciano. patterson loved to come in and brawl and like against liston, that would be suicide against the rock.




for a 1956 matchup?


i think the aging rock stops patterson late



anything after 1956, patterson beats him as rocky would be past his prime






im extremeley shocked u picked marciano to get knocked out. IMO no fighter in history could put marciano for the 10 count.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Liston would stop Marciano, prime vs. prime. So would Dempsey, Holmes and Louis.

holmes is defintley not going to stop marciano. I can see holmes outpointing him possibly


- i think a dempsey-marciano fight would end in a draw with both men being floored numerous times and having to spend 2 weeks in the hospital recovering.


-joe louis would stop marciano



- i think marciano-liston is 50-50, however i lean toward marciano stopping liston. liston didnt have proven heart or chin, he was almost like a bully.




decagon, u have to realize. to stop marciano, u basically have to kill him. on film, when did u ever see marciano badly hurt? when did u ever see him out on his feet or stubling artound the ring? NEVER



but u like to think of him as some small wimp who would just roll over when he faces the bigger heavies

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Liston didn't have a proven chin? Did you not see the Cleveland Williams fights or something? Holmes would slice Marciano to pieces.

marciano never had a fight stopped on cuts in his career, so we cant hold it against him in fantasy matchups.


yea i saw the cleveland williams fights, and so wut. williams hit him hard a couple times in the 1st round, but he didnt exactley get his best punches in on sonny.


liston was floored by 179lb light hitting marty marshall and by 1 punch by a light tap of a right hand from ali. and of course leotis martin knocked him out cold with 1 punch though liston was well past it

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Liston practically admitted throwing the second Ali fight, and Marciano in his prime was knocked down by a light heavyweight.

moore weighed more than marciano for there fight. and moore was one of the greatest punchers of all time, and had the most knockouts of all time. did marshall have that to his credit? also moore had proven power at heavy and knocked out some big heavyweight contenders

[Randineous]

bullshit they were all in there prime


trevor berbick 32 years old coming off the best fight of his career in a win over pinklon thomas. 32 years old is NOT old for a heavyweight.

get ur facts straight decagon!


i could argue berbick, bonecrusher were more experienced and better fighters when they fought tyson than when they fought holmes.

Brockton, as someone who has stated that the 23 year-old Tyson was past it when he lost to Douglas, I wonder what you think of this bit of info concerning the 32 year-old Berbick as he got ready to face Tyson (found in Gutteridge's bio on Tyson, pages 136 & 137);


"Berbick's preparation for his defense against Tyson was not exactly perfect. His concentration was continually ambushed by outside-the-ring pressures. At one stage he was threatening to pull out for a more lucrative date with Gerry Cooney, but this was sorted out after some bitter background bickering and bargaining with promoter Don King. Then, on the Tuesday before the contest, he was in court contesting a suit brought by a Texan promoter claiming a breach of a fight contract. The next day, he had sudden breathing problems and visited four doctors before he could get resiratory medication that met with the approval of the Nevada State Athletic Commision. He must have been in danger of a loss of breath again on the Thursdat when a district court judge ruled that $495,000 should be held from his $2.1 million purse pending the outcome of his dispute with the Texan promoter.

On top of all this, Berbick had fallen out with his veteran trainer - the great strategist Eddie Futch - over how much Futch should be paid for his wise corner counselling. He found the best-possible substitute in former Muhammad Ali mentoe Angelo Dundee, but Angelo was given less than a month in which to get his fight plan together."


Considering what you've said about Tyson, wouldn't it be very hypocritical to say that the much older fighter in Berbick was in his prime, considering what he was dealing with in the week(s) leading up to the fight?

[bill.lockhart]

Decagon

I don't think D'amato would have put Patterson in with Rocky in 1956.
What for? If Rocky continues on, Patterson gains experince while Rocky continues to erode. Time was on his side. If Rocky retires, even better. The biggest roadblock is out of the way. By 1957 he may have taken the match, as their would have been a public demand for the fight. By then, I think Rocky would have had enough. Rocky was smart though. It's better to get out a year too early than a year too late.
I notice by some of your posts, you're not that high on Marciano. As time passes Rocky's legacy seems to dwindle. It's a damn shame. Rocky
would have been even money against any of them. Talk about a warrior.
He defined the term. Never count him out. No referee ever did.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Liston practically admitted throwing the second Ali fight, and Marciano in his prime was knocked down by a light heavyweight.

moore weighed more than marciano for there fight. and moore was one of the greatest punchers of all time, and had the most knockouts of all time. did marshall have that to his credit? also moore had proven power at heavy and knocked out some big heavyweight contenders

Moore was one of the greatest punchers of all time, but you have to remember that most of his knockouts came at 175 or 160, not heavyweight.

Great fighters sometimes do go down easier early in their career. Look at Ali against Banks and Cooper. Liston was never knocked down in his prime.

agreed

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

bullshit they were all in there prime


trevor berbick 32 years old coming off the best fight of his career in a win over pinklon thomas. 32 years old is NOT old for a heavyweight.

get ur facts straight decagon!


i could argue berbick, bonecrusher were more experienced and better fighters when they fought tyson than when they fought holmes.

Brockton, as someone who has stated that the 23 year-old Tyson was past it when he lost to Douglas, I wonder what you think of this bit of info concerning the 32 year-old Berbick as he got ready to face Tyson (found in Gutteridge's bio on Tyson, pages 136 & 137);


"Berbick's preparation for his defense against Tyson was not exactly perfect. His concentration was continually ambushed by outside-the-ring pressures. At one stage he was threatening to pull out for a more lucrative date with Gerry Cooney, but this was sorted out after some bitter background bickering and bargaining with promoter Don King. Then, on the Tuesday before the contest, he was in court contesting a suit brought by a Texan promoter claiming a breach of a fight contract. The next day, he had sudden breathing problems and visited four doctors before he could get resiratory medication that met with the approval of the Nevada State Athletic Commision. He must have been in danger of a loss of breath again on the Thursdat when a district court judge ruled that $495,000 should be held from his $2.1 million purse pending the outcome of his dispute with the Texan promoter.

On top of all this, Berbick had fallen out with his veteran trainer - the great strategist Eddie Futch - over how much Futch should be paid for his wise corner counselling. He found the best-possible substitute in former Muhammad Ali mentoe Angelo Dundee, but Angelo was given less than a month in which to get his fight plan together."


Considering what you've said about Tyson, wouldn't it be very hypocritical to say that the much older fighter in Berbick was in his prime, considering what he was dealing with in the week(s) leading up to the fight?

thanx randi,



berbick was only 32, which is young for a heavyweight almost. almost all heavyweights are in there prime at 32. But I think its clear berbick was in his prime. he was coming off his peak preformancce over pinkoln thomas and he was a alhpa heavyweight champion with his coniffdence at his peak. if he wasnt in his prime going into the tyson fight, then when was his prime? he certainly wasnt in his prime when he was losing to renaldo snipes and st gordon. like most of the 80s heavyweights, berbick didnt train to hard most of the time. but every indication i got was that berbick traiend hard because he knew that to come into the ring anything less than 100% agaisnt tyson, he risked getting seriosely hurt. berbick may have been exepreincig outside personel problems but so was tyson and a lot of other fighters. fact is, berbick at the time of the tyson fight was on the best winning streak of his career coming off his best fight of his career and was the heavyweight champ.


ur prime = when ur at ur best as a fighter and berbick certainly was when he fought mike

[marchegiano007]

patterson would have utterly destroyed the glass jaw folley. valdez was past his prime in the late 50s and would have been no match for patterson. cleveland williams wasnt even a top 10 contender during pattersons reign, but i still think patterson beats williams.

well rocky marciano avoided nino valdez and nino deserved more the title shot than don cockell, so i will say he should had give valdez and oportunity in 1957. valdez was 6'4 in height and more than 200 pounds he doucl had give patteron a lot of trouble.

marciano NEVER avoided nino valdes, thats a myth. marciano was scheduled to face valdes in miami in 1955 but valdez lost to moore and moore took his place. marciano had planned to take on cockell first and then valdes. moore however smoked valdes and established himself the # 1 contender. anyway, valdes would have been tailor made for marciano. marciano sparred with nino before, and a person who witnessed it told me marciano's non stop punching and incredible pace made nino break down and gasp after every punch landed during that sparring session. he told me that people in the gyms around that era gave valdes little to no chance against marciano.


valdes was 6'3 not 6'4. patterson was far too fast, skilled, and powerful for nino valdes. patterson would have finished off valdes quickly. nino had trouble with guys with fast handspeed(baker, satterfield, moore) he lost to all of them.
so why patterson was ko by ingemar johanson in the 3rd round a man without skill only a good right hand, nino punched harder than johansson, and for me patterson was a cheese champion, beaten archie moore after moore took a terrlbe beating in the marciano fight yes ko ingo glass jaw johansson 2 times and almost ko in the 3rd fight. ko by liston 2 times. and thats it he was crazy to get liston again ko in the 1st for the 3rd time?


both marciano and patterson would have destroyed valdes IMO