Willie Pep-Where Do You Rate Him Alltime ?

[Seamus]

I don't think I've ever seen a fighter in my life who looked better on film than Willie Pep. The guy could simply do it all. Dance around side to side, slip punches effortlessly and then launch an attack out of no where from any angle. I think he's an alltime great for foot work, head movement, jabbing, counter punching, and throwing combinations. So my question is, Where do you rate him alltime ? Number 1, Top 5, Top 10, Top 20 ?

[Broomhall]

Top 10, maybe top 5 on his day.

[Tomasino]

Definitely right up there, apart from being a stylist coming back from his injuries in the plane crash is unbelievable. A unique fighter. Top 10.

[tiny_acres]

Top 5.

[beaujack]

I don't think I've ever seen a fighter in my life who looked better on film than Willie Pep. The guy could simply do it all. Dance around side to side, slip punches effortlessly and then launch an attack out of no where from any angle. I think he's an alltime great for foot work, head movement, jabbing, counter punching, and throwing combinations. So my question is, Where do you rate him alltime ? Number 1, Top 5, Top 10, Top 20 ?

I was lucky to have seen Willie Pep ringside BEFORE his near fatal accident and he was truly
a "will of the wisp". He was amazing, anticipating his opponents next move and reacting instantly...
The best featherweight I ever saw, but I cannot see Pep beating Henry Armstrong at 126 pounds, both at their peaks...Willie could not hold off the dynamo that was Henry Armstrong enough to beat Henry...Style wins it for Armstrong...

[Jpreisser]

I rate him as the best featherweight ever, but all-time I would say he falls inside the top-10. Anywhere from 6-10 likely, though I haven't put a proper list together.

[ImranSarwar]

I knew Willie personally AND attended his funeral. Oh I rate him inside the Top 8 a.t., along-side DURAN, & I can see him as candidate for SRR's solid place.

[Syntax Error]

I usually have him in my top 5 p4p, although I can waver & fluctuate, but never outside the top 10; he was too good.

[elmersalsa]

I rate him top 5 all time. This are my top 5 greatest fighters of all time:
1. Henry Arsmtrong
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Willie Pep

To me, the great Willie Pep, was the best fighter of his time.

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't think I've ever seen a fighter in my life who looked better on film than Willie Pep. The guy could simply do it all. Dance around side to side, slip punches effortlessly and then launch an attack out of no where from any angle. I think he's an alltime great for foot work, head movement, jabbing, counter punching, and throwing combinations. So my question is, Where do you rate him alltime ? Number 1, Top 5, Top 10, Top 20 ?

I think he is borderline Top 10. He isn't Top 5.

To be without question in the Top 10 in over 130 years of boxing , you really have to something extraordinary.

When you weigh the big wins vs losses (taking into consideration stages of fighter's career's, competitiveness, and the quality of the opponents) Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Ali, Ray Leonard, Sam Langford, Harry Greb, and Ezzard Charles, standout a little. They were all very consistent and had numerous big wins.

Pep was very consistent, but he just doesn't have the high quality wins they do. His career was more like Carlos Monzon and Joe Louis. Obviously Pep, Monzon and Louis beat some really good fighters, but it pales in comparison to other guys.

Archie Moore had a lot big wins but wasn't as consistent; you could argue Pep was better than him.

[HomicideHenry]

Pep at one point, may very well of been the greatest defensive fighter to of ever lived. There are alot of rumors and legends as to just how defensive he was (winning a round without throwing a punch, etc) but these are more or less exaggerations of what he was capable of doing. His record is a hard one to beat, just as much as it is difficult for people to find other records to compare/match it with.

Overall, at his peak, he was top ten p4p. I think that's without question. Where his place is on that top ten, though, is very speculative. There's been more people who have accomplished more at different weight classes, etc. but at featherweight there probably was no better of a boxer--- not fighter, mind you--- but classic textbook defense.

[Seamus]

I often wonder what Pep would have been like if he hadn't been injured in the plane crash. At the time he was 24 with a record of 108-1-1 (34 K) and had stopped 8 of his last 9 opponents.

[Tomasino]

I often wonder what Pep would have been like if he hadn't been injured in the plane crash. At the time he was 24 with a record of 108-1-1 (34 K) and had stopped 8 of his last 9 opponents.

In the clips of him training he does a lot of neck work and core work with the medicine ball. I don't know if these films were made before or after his crash. I'd imagine e his injuries would have made doing such work very difficult. Never mind taking punches

Tough tough man.

[elmersalsa]

Pep won 230 fights. That is a lot. He fought 242 times and lost only 11 fights? That is remarkable. He lost 8 fights after turning 30. He was the best fighter of his time, bar none. The only knock I got against him was that going up in weight, he did not fight more great lightweights. But he beat lightweights like Willie Joyce and Paddy DeMarco, but lost to Sammy Angott. It is very hard going up in weight and beat someone as good as you.

But besides that, he cleaned up the featherweights before the plane crash. That is a fact. And he beat every featherweight of his time.

[Borinken25]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Ali
7. Louis
8. Duran
9. Pep
10. Joe Gans

Those are my top 10. Of course, Benny Leonard, Sugar Ray Leonard, Archie Moore, Ross, McLarning, and Saddler are close to top 10. Slightly below not too far then you have the Whitaker, Hagler, Monzon, Tiger, and few others.

[elmersalsa]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Ali
7. Louis
8. Duran
9. Pep
10. Joe Gans

Those are my top 10. Of course, Benny Leonard, Sugar Ray Leonard, Archie Moore, Ross, McLarning, and Saddler are close to top 10. Slightly below not too far then you have the Whitaker, Hagler, Monzon, Tiger, and few others.

[elmersalsa]

It is probably the first time I agree with Borinken on something. He has all those ten fighters in the top ten, but, I had them a little different:
1. Henry Armstrong
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Willie Pep
6. Harry Greb
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Joe Louis
10. Joe Gans

[JohnnyCross]

I don't think I've ever seen a fighter in my life who looked better on film than Willie Pep. The guy could simply do it all. Dance around side to side, slip punches effortlessly and then launch an attack out of no where from any angle. I think he's an alltime great for foot work, head movement, jabbing, counter punching, and throwing combinations. So my question is, Where do you rate him alltime ? Number 1, Top 5, Top 10, Top 20 ?

I think he is borderline Top 10. He isn't Top 5.

To be without question in the Top 10 in over 130 years of boxing , you really have to something extraordinary.

When you weigh the big wins vs losses (taking into consideration stages of fighter's career's, competitiveness, and the quality of the opponents) Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Ali, Ray Leonard, Sam Langford, Harry Greb, and Ezzard Charles, standout a little. They were all very consistent and had numerous big wins.

Pep was very consistent, but he just doesn't have the high quality wins they do. His career was more like Carlos Monzon and Joe Louis. Obviously Pep, Monzon and Louis beat some really good fighters, but it pales in comparison to other guys.

Archie Moore had a lot big wins but wasn't as consistent; you could argue Pep was better than him.

He did have all those losses to one of the greats he faced in Sandy Saddler, not sure if that was his proper weight class though. I'm also starting to feel like he is borderline too 10. I currently have him at 11 right behind Joe Gans. He was pretty small maybe less competitive field he played in. He was just amazing to watch though, pure boxing skill he is probably too 10 or 5. And pure skill is an important factor in determining how good a fighter is. Circumstances may vary leading to someone's record but talent can't be ignored. I think he is considerably higher than Moore because of his skill. And Pep just never really lost for such a long ass career.

[JohnnyCross]

It is probably the first time I agree with Borinken on something. He has all those ten fighters in the top ten, but, I had them a little different:
1. Henry Armstrong
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Willie Pep
6. Harry Greb
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Joe Louis
10. Joe Gans

Good list. Feel like Greb has a slight edge on Pep cause he had such raw fighting ability, probably on par with Pep, in his own speciality, but Greb beat up much better fighters than Pep had a longer career and better record. Ali is like a big Pep to me except a respectable offensive attack and fight better opposition. So I also rate Ali a bit above Pep now that I think of it

[gilgamesh]

One of the Gold Standards of Defensive Mastery in Boxing history no doubt. At the very least one of the 20 best Boxers of all time, Probably THE very best Featherweight of All time or damn close to it, and Certainly one of the Top 3 Defensive masters in the sports history.

[greenpudding]

Pep is thee BEST

[elmersalsa]

When it comes to defensive genius, the greats Willie Pep and Floyd Mayweather, Jr comes 1 and 2 all time

[littlepug]

When it comes to defensive genius, the greats Willie Pep and Floyd Mayweather, Jr comes 1 and 2 all time

Whitaker ?

[elmersalsa]

When it comes to defensive genius, the greats Willie Pep and Floyd Mayweather, Jr comes 1 and 2 all time

Whitaker ?

The great Pernell Whitaker is third. But these two, Pep and Mayweather, are definitely top ten all time greats

[JohnnyCross]

Judging Floyd by defensive capability he was definitely one of the best I can think of. Pep is definitely the most able though, kinda like a Barry Sanders smoothly avoiding contact