Journeymen: The other side of the boxing business

[Dixonian]

I think we need to distinguish the difference between a professional journeyman and an import with a losing record simply brought over to be knocked down. A "journeyman" knows a craft. They know how to spoil, go for a walk, disappear, rough up... they know just how far to push a young prospect. A good journeyman wouldn't let a prospect have it all his own way. I agree in a way with the person who said today's journeymen aren't good enough, I'd argue they are a dieing breed that are being replaced with "Bodies".

I've always believed that a genuine journeyman is a fighter, that given time to prepare and the right investment, would be a threat.

Spot on about some of these imports. The thing is, some of them have accumulated a winning record, and I wonder if that's part of the reason they're brought in. Easier to con the public, that this guy might be a threat rather than someone with a Kristian Laight-type record.

[Mimmy]

I dont souly agree that all journeymen have no ambition to win. Yes in cases there are an element who take the money and run. I would like to think some guys want to see the fight to the last bell and do give 100%. Im sure promotors choose different types of journeymen, some who do quit easy and some who are willing to go the distance and give a few punches too.

[Shirow]

What would be wrong managers matching top prospects with other slightly less promising prospects? Surely opponents can be found with similar records so at least the appearance of an competitive match can be maintained.

If i'd already seen him box before I wouldn't pay to watch a prospect against a 'body' who has no intention or incentive to win unless i would also be willing to pay to watch him spar.

[johnnygreaves]

I think we need to distinguish the difference between a professional journeyman and an import with a losing record simply brought over to be knocked down. A "journeyman" knows a craft. They know how to spoil, go for a walk, disappear, rough up... they know just how far to push a young prospect. A good journeyman wouldn't let a prospect have it all his own way. I agree in a way with the person who said today's journeymen aren't good enough, I'd argue they are a dieing breed that are being replaced with "Bodies".

I've always believed that a genuine journeyman is a fighter, that given time to prepare and the right investment, would be a threat.

x2

[leejonesjnr]

champions still flourish in the UFC where there are no journeymen.

Tank Abbott?

[Stevieb8006]

I think we need to distinguish the difference between a professional journeyman and an import with a losing record simply brought over to be knocked down. A "journeyman" knows a craft. They know how to spoil, go for a walk, disappear, rough up... they know just how far to push a young prospect. A good journeyman wouldn't let a prospect have it all his own way. I agree in a way with the person who said today's journeymen aren't good enough, I'd argue they are a dieing breed that are being replaced with "Bodies".

I've always believed that a genuine journeyman is a fighter, that given time to prepare and the right investment, would be a threat.

x2

Thanks Johnny, you were one of the first I thought of when I wrote that

[80/20]

There is a certain British journeyman (still active) who I hate to watch I understand the need not to get stopped or cut but it's sooo negative it's unreal ....at least try a little bit!


??????? A Clue ???????????

[Junker]

Thanks for the nice comments about the book.

IMO the comparisons with other sports miss the point. Footballers / Rugby players / Golfers etc don't have to sell tickets to their friends and family to get a game. This is the fundamental problem. No other sport that I know of is run like this.
You can moan about journeymen not trying until the cows come home, but within the present system the deck will always be stacked to ensure the home corner boys keep winning. There's a bit about all that in the last chapter.

[dookus]

Thanks for the nice comments about the book.

IMO the comparisons with other sports miss the point. Footballers / Rugby players / Golfers etc don't have to sell tickets to their friends and family to get a game. This is the fundamental problem. No other sport that I know of is run like this.
You can moan about journeymen not trying until the cows come home, but within the present system the deck will always be stacked to ensure the home corner boys keep winning. There's a bit about all that in the last chapter.

Hey there - thanks for writing it. A good read and I'm glad I bought it.

What are your thoughts on my original question? How if at all could the game be changed at the grassroots level to stop very able boxers being incentivised to lose deliberately on a weekly basis?

[reggaereggae]

I thought the book was an excellent read, finished it in 2 days. Now I know the author can't interview every journeyman but I would've liked to hear from Journeyman legend Peter Buckley. Also Howard Clarke, especially, who beat Prospect Jason Papillion in an upset when he had 10 losses and then went on to box Fernando Vargas, got stopped, and then preceded to lose his next 50 or more in a row.....

What a story that must be. Maybe we can have a Journeymen 2 DD ?

The other question I have is that does any other country work with this kind of system?

[iamasadlittleboy]

The closest I can think of is Thailand, who import Indonesian fighters for the same task (Sammy Hagler, Domi Nenokeba, Boido Simanjuntak, Heri Amol, Ricky Manufoe, Johan Wahyudi and arguably Espinsos Sabu-who actually does like a bit of a fight). Sadly a lot of the home fighters in those bouts are "names" like Srisaket, Suriyan, Kompayak or contenders, Nawaphon for example.

The amount of work some of those Indonesian chaps have got in recent years is as impressive as their losing runs.

[Wales]

champions still flourish in the UFC where there are no journeymen.

Tank Abbott?

His record in ufc is about 50-50, and he comes to win, no?

Peter Buckley? 10-250, comes to lose but not get KOd

[Wales]

There is a certain British journeyman (still active) who I hate to watch I understand the need not to get stopped or cut but it's sooo negative it's unreal ....at least try a little bit!


??????? A Clue ???????????

Exactly, because that doesn't narrow it down! Lose by KO you don't work for 5 (?) weeks. See the 4 rounds, by whatever means, you work next week.

[Junker]

Thanks for the nice comments about the book.

IMO the comparisons with other sports miss the point. Footballers / Rugby players / Golfers etc don't have to sell tickets to their friends and family to get a game. This is the fundamental problem. No other sport that I know of is run like this.
You can moan about journeymen not trying until the cows come home, but within the present system the deck will always be stacked to ensure the home corner boys keep winning. There's a bit about all that in the last chapter.

Hey there - thanks for writing it. A good read and I'm glad I bought it.

What are your thoughts on my original question? How if at all could the game be changed at the grassroots level to stop very able boxers being incentivised to lose deliberately on a weekly basis?

Its a very tricky one, Dookus. The whole way that shows are set up and funded would have to change. I think underlying it all is the fact there is very little casual audience for small hall boxing these days. Until the 70s you could have a local show, put up a few posters and an ad in Boxing News and people would come. These days that doesn't happen, meaning that 95% of the audience are friends / family of home corner fighters, creating the necessity to keep them winning, especially if they're good ticket sellers.
In the present system, if a talented kid can't sell tickets, he's going to have to go on the road to have a career. That will usually mean racking up losses. I guess the only way around that is if he gets a very generous, benevolent sponsor, willing to fund him until he gets to titles, but people like that are few and far between.
You do get the odd lad who bucks the system - Sam Eggington is a good example.

[Junker]

I thought the book was an excellent read, finished it in 2 days. Now I know the author can't interview every journeyman but I would've liked to hear from Journeyman legend Peter Buckley. Also Howard Clarke, especially, who beat Prospect Jason Papillion in an upset when he had 10 losses and then went on to box Fernando Vargas, got stopped, and then preceded to lose his next 50 or more in a row.....

What a story that must be. Maybe we can have a Journeymen 2 DD ?

The other question I have is that does any other country work with this kind of system?

thanks mate. To begin with I drew up a list with about 20-30 names on it and Peter Buckley was one of the first ones I approached. He didn't want to do the book though as he already had some media interest which he wanted to commit to. Howard Clarke was also a possibility, there are loads of names you could mention. Quite a few people have said Tony Booth, who was an absolute legend, although not an out-and-out journeyman IMO and has already done his own book anyway.
I'm happy with the guys I got and the way the book turned out. I wouldn't do a Journeymen 2, though. Need to move on - I can't keep writing about the same things!

[Dixonian]

I thought the book was an excellent read, finished it in 2 days. Now I know the author can't interview every journeyman but I would've liked to hear from Journeyman legend Peter Buckley. Also Howard Clarke, especially, who beat Prospect Jason Papillion in an upset when he had 10 losses and then went on to box Fernando Vargas, got stopped, and then preceded to lose his next 50 or more in a row.....

What a story that must be. Maybe we can have a Journeymen 2 DD ?

The other question I have is that does any other country work with this kind of system?

thanks mate. To begin with I drew up a list with about 20-30 names on it and Peter Buckley was one of the first ones I approached. He didn't want to do the book though as he already had some media interest which he wanted to commit to. Howard Clarke was also a possibility, there are loads of names you could mention. Quite a few people have said Tony Booth, who was an absolute legend, although not an out-and-out journeyman IMO and has already done his own book anyway.
I'm happy with the guys I got and the way the book turned out. I wouldn't do a Journeymen 2, though. Need to move on - I can't keep writing about the same things!

I thought you did a great job of getting the guys to open up about life as a journeyman. Some really insightful stuff. Cracking stories and a cracking read all round.

[leejonesjnr]

champions still flourish in the UFC where there are no journeymen.

Tank Abbott?

His record in ufc is about 50-50, and he comes to win, no?

Peter Buckley? 10-250, comes to lose but not get KOd

Hi record in UFC is less than 50-50 and lower still when including all MMA.
Would you consider a boxer with 8 losses and 5 wins a journeyman or a contender?
I can't speak for every fight he has ever had as I don't really enjoy or follow MMA much these days but when he was the opponent against Gary Turner in London he certainly came just for the wages.

[Boxing Prospect]

Hi record in UFC is less than 50-50 and lower still when including all MMA.
Would you consider a boxer with 8 losses and 5 wins a journeyman or a contender?
I can't speak for every fight he has ever had as I don't really enjoy or follow MMA much these days but when he was the opponent against Gary Turner in London he certainly came just for the wages.

Is it the record that makes a journeyman?
Looking at, say, Rey Megrino or Rey Loreto you'd think both were "journeymen" yet both are world ranked fighters who genuinely have a crack at winning a title somewhere down the line. On the British front was Chris Edwards a journeyman-despite being a 3 time British champion?

[leejonesjnr]

Hi record in UFC is less than 50-50 and lower still when including all MMA.
Would you consider a boxer with 8 losses and 5 wins a journeyman or a contender?
I can't speak for every fight he has ever had as I don't really enjoy or follow MMA much these days but when he was the opponent against Gary Turner in London he certainly came just for the wages.

Is it the record that makes a journeyman?
Looking at, say, Rey Megrino or Rey Loreto you'd think both were "journeymen" yet both are world ranked fighters who genuinely have a crack at winning a title somewhere down the line. On the British front was Chris Edwards a journeyman-despite being a 3 time British champion?

Partly, yes it is, however I understand what you mean, and yes mentality and intention is also an important factor. I don't wish to be unkind and name names but for example there is a former BBBoC licensed boxer who now boxes under another license with a 2-51 record. He takes a lot of punishment and appears to be trying to win every fight. His intention is not to make the 4 rounds without a stoppage, it is to win, yet I would still consider him a journeyman. Perhaps that is unfair. Perhaps only boxers who regularly fight well below potential in order to maximise income should be thought of as journeymen?
On reflection, depending on how a journeyman is defined, I suppose Tank Abbott could easily be dismissed as it was ability and willingness to compete with people levels above that caused him to lose so many.
All that said, people are often referred to as journeyman when they are far from it.

[reggaereggae]

I thought the book was an excellent read, finished it in 2 days. Now I know the author can't interview every journeyman but I would've liked to hear from Journeyman legend Peter Buckley. Also Howard Clarke, especially, who beat Prospect Jason Papillion in an upset when he had 10 losses and then went on to box Fernando Vargas, got stopped, and then preceded to lose his next 50 or more in a row.....

What a story that must be. Maybe we can have a Journeymen 2 DD ?

The other question I have is that does any other country work with this kind of system?

thanks mate. To begin with I drew up a list with about 20-30 names on it and Peter Buckley was one of the first ones I approached. He didn't want to do the book though as he already had some media interest which he wanted to commit to. Howard Clarke was also a possibility, there are loads of names you could mention. Quite a few people have said Tony Booth, who was an absolute legend, although not an out-and-out journeyman IMO and has already done his own book anyway.
I'm happy with the guys I got and the way the book turned out. I wouldn't do a Journeymen 2, though. Need to move on - I can't keep writing about the same things!

Of course you have to move on and thanks for answering personally. I think it's one of the most insightful boxing books I've read - though because I've been following boxing for over 25 years I was aware of the journeymen situation. If I had been a newer fan, like when I was a more naive 18 or 21 year old, I would've been absolutely shocked at the book. I had this extremely naive belief in the 'noble' art of boxing.... Whereas now I realise it's the dirtiest sport in the world!

[josco]

We do not have, for example, journeyman jockeys, football players, rugby players, snooker players, cricketers, golfers etc etc etc etc etc. Just journeyman boxers. Says it all.

Im not sure I agree with this. I would say Billy Sharp for example in terms of football is what I would class as a journeyman football playeer, but the name journeyman only really has a meaning in boxing as journeymen travel anywhere and everywhere. Saying it in that sense does put a football player like Billy Sharp in that league. I dont know anything about Rugby or Snooker so cant comment but in horse racing there will be 'fringe' jockies or jockies who cannot get a perminant stable and have to ride for whoever they can and just turn up at race courses hoping that a jockey is injured so he can get a replacement ride. Again in Golf there are many pro events and the guys who are now in their 30's 40's play in pro events such a the Euro Pro Tour and will almost get no where in terms of top PGA events, so travel all over the UK to try to get a slice of a £25k event with the winner making only £10k. I think 'journeymen' exsist in every sport in some form.

But I cannot think of any other sports where participants get paid for losing or not trying to win. Lengthy bans could be the outcome.

[mickey1975]

I thought the book was an excellent read, finished it in 2 days. Now I know the author can't interview every journeyman but I would've liked to hear from Journeyman legend Peter Buckley. Also Howard Clarke, especially, who beat Prospect Jason Papillion in an upset when he had 10 losses and then went on to box Fernando Vargas, got stopped, and then preceded to lose his next 50 or more in a row.....

What a story that must be. Maybe we can have a Journeymen 2 DD ?

The other question I have is that does any other country work with this kind of system?

I think Sweet Fighting Man 1 covers them. Tony Booth is the best sort of journeymen out there. He beat two of my friends, one "because I'm not losing to a York lad in Hull" and the other "because I felt like it". He wasn't expected to win either. The guys is mental.

[dookus]

I thought the book was an excellent read, finished it in 2 days. Now I know the author can't interview every journeyman but I would've liked to hear from Journeyman legend Peter Buckley. Also Howard Clarke, especially, who beat Prospect Jason Papillion in an upset when he had 10 losses and then went on to box Fernando Vargas, got stopped, and then preceded to lose his next 50 or more in a row.....

What a story that must be. Maybe we can have a Journeymen 2 DD ?

The other question I have is that does any other country work with this kind of system?

I think Sweet Fighting Man 1 covers them. Tony Booth is the best sort of journeymen out there. He beat two of my friends, one "because I'm not losing to a York lad in Hull" and the other "because I felt like it". He wasn't expected to win either. The guys is mental.

Ah, so you know Billy then? I met him very briefly when I lived in York (at the old All Saints gym down by the Ouse) and used to see him on training runs sometimes. How is he?

[mickey1975]

Yes. I got him into boxing at primary school! I'm meeting up with him in Germany next week. He's head coach at York ABC and works full time for the "off the hook" charity based there that looks after kids outside of the system through the day. Basically kids nobody else can handle. Billy does...

[keithmoonhangover]

My opinion is, if anyone steps into the ring, with no intention of winning, they should be banned for life.