Journeymen: The other side of the boxing business

[mickey1975]

My opinion is, if anyone steps into the ring, with no intention of winning, they should be banned for life.

What about promoter matching people with no chance of winning? Robin Deakin fancies himself against anyone, doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

[keithmoonhangover]

My opinion is, if anyone steps into the ring, with no intention of winning, they should be banned for life.

What about promoter matching people with no chance of winning? Robin Deakin fancies himself against anyone, doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

The promoter is accountable as well mate, but the idea that only one fighter is trying to win is a disgrace. People make excuses, but in reality, it's like watching the Washington Generals lose every match to the Harlem Globetrotters.

Can you imagine watching Wimbledon and one guy missing the ball all the time to let the young prospect 'learn' from the match. BALLS!

[Junker]

My opinion is, if anyone steps into the ring, with no intention of winning, they should be banned for life.

What about promoter matching people with no chance of winning? Robin Deakin fancies himself against anyone, doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

The promoter is accountable as well mate, but the idea that only one fighter is trying to win is a disgrace. People make excuses, but in reality, it's like watching the Washington Generals lose every match to the Harlem Globetrotters.

Can you imagine watching Wimbledon and one guy missing the ball all the time to let the young prospect 'learn' from the match. BALLS!

Can you imagine a tennis player having to sell tickets to his friends and family in order to be allowed to play?

[keithmoonhangover]

Can you imagine a tennis player having to sell tickets to his friends and family in order to be allowed to play?

Not all boxers have to sell tickets. But bringing in revenue is an accepted part of a lot of sports.

[REEVE]

Can you imagine a tennis player having to sell tickets to his friends and family in order to be allowed to play?

Not all boxers have to sell tickets. But bringing in revenue is an accepted part of a lot of sports.

99% of home boxers are on ticket deals these days / it's easier to box away from home

[bripez]

Surely the issues being discussed go against the whole principle of a sporting contest.

Boxing must be unique - and not in a good way - that not only do these practices happen on a regular basis but that they are actually accepted and even defended by a lot of people who follow the sport.

[Wales]

My opinion is, if anyone steps into the ring, with no intention of winning, they should be banned for life.

Crazy that in a 2 horse race you sometimes get odds of 1/200 (and more). Like you say, you quite often have fighters getting in the ring with no intention of winning. Survive the 4 rounds by any means, lose, and you'll pick up another cheque next week. Get KO'd, win, or even show too much ambition and you won't get work next week!

[Junker]

Surely the issues being discussed go against the whole principle of a sporting contest.

Boxing must be unique - and not in a good way - that not only do these practices happen on a regular basis but that they are actually accepted and even defended by a lot of people who follow the sport.

I think its more a case of defending the individual fighters. People may not like the system, but to hold particular journeymen responsible for it is completely missing the point IMO. Anyway, partly due to this thread and discussions elsewhere, I revisited this topic for my weekly article on Instant Boxing this week. Have a look if you're interested guys
http://instantboxing.com/turley-on-tues ... lly-means/

[dookus]

Thanks Junker. Good article. As you say, it's the system people should be narked at, not the journeymen themselves. It's ridiculous that prospects in this country are obliged to also be good salesmen - if in some alternate universe I had the talent to box professionally, I'd be a journeyman from day one simply because I'm also quite an introvert and can't imagine hassling people to come watch me! That can't be right.

[Coco]

Surely the issues being discussed go against the whole principle of a sporting contest.

Boxing must be unique - and not in a good way - that not only do these practices happen on a regular basis but that they are actually accepted and even defended by a lot of people who follow the sport.

I think its more a case of defending the individual fighters. People may not like the system, but to hold particular journeymen responsible for it is completely missing the point IMO. Anyway, partly due to this thread and discussions elsewhere, I revisited this topic for my weekly article on Instant Boxing this week. Have a look if you're interested guys
http://instantboxing.com/turley-on-tues ... lly-means/

Fighters have been given specific instructions to lose?

[Junker]

Surely the issues being discussed go against the whole principle of a sporting contest.

Boxing must be unique - and not in a good way - that not only do these practices happen on a regular basis but that they are actually accepted and even defended by a lot of people who follow the sport.

I think its more a case of defending the individual fighters. People may not like the system, but to hold particular journeymen responsible for it is completely missing the point IMO. Anyway, partly due to this thread and discussions elsewhere, I revisited this topic for my weekly article on Instant Boxing this week. Have a look if you're interested guys
http://instantboxing.com/turley-on-tues ... lly-means/

Fighters have been given specific instructions to lose?

it does happen, yes. There are quite a few cases outlined in the book.

[Coco]

I've done a bit of boxing myself, I have never heard of it? Do you actually have proof of this or are you just taking the word of journeymen trying to justify their poor record?

[Junker]

Coco at the risk of sounding like my own salesman you need to read the book. Fighters, promoters, managers, matchmakers and even Robert Smith from the board all accept that the practice goes on.

[Coco]

Coco at the risk of sounding like my own salesman you need to read the book. Fighters, promoters, managers, matchmakers and even Robert Smith from the board all accept that the practice goes on.

As I said I've done a bit of boxing, more in the 90's, unless things have changed, I never saw it, if the matchmaking is right you don't need to fix fights.
I fully accept if a journeyman is taking on a bigger, more talented fighter at short notice he may well stay in his shell to survive, but this is not deliberately losing.
You are making big accusations. I'm a defender of journeymen but I would agree with a fighter being banned for deliberately losing.

[dookus]

Coco at the risk of sounding like my own salesman you need to read the book. Fighters, promoters, managers, matchmakers and even Robert Smith from the board all accept that the practice goes on.

As I said I've done a bit of boxing, more in the 90's, unless things have changed, I never saw it, if the matchmaking is right you don't need to fix fights.
I fully accept if a journeyman is taking on a bigger, more talented fighter at short notice he may well stay in his shell to survive, but this is not deliberately losing.
You are making big accusations. I'm a defender of journeymen but I would agree with a fighter being banned for deliberately losing.

I would read the book. Numerous journeymen say they've been asked to lose. Short of a promoter publicly confessing to that (never going to happen) there isn't much better evidence that it happens.

[palooka]

Coco at the risk of sounding like my own salesman you need to read the book. Fighters, promoters, managers, matchmakers and even Robert Smith from the board all accept that the practice goes on.

As I said I've done a bit of boxing, more in the 90's, unless things have changed, I never saw it, if the matchmaking is right you don't need to fix fights.
I fully accept if a journeyman is taking on a bigger, more talented fighter at short notice he may well stay in his shell to survive, but this is not deliberately losing.
You are making big accusations. I'm a defender of journeymen but I would agree with a fighter being banned for deliberately losing.

I know a man who was paid well for losing to a German boxer in Germany, in the 90's. I'll PM you their names.

[mickey1975]

Ive never heard of it. They simply know they're not going to win. I've heard of it on the unlicensed scene. I think it is a bit of bravado from the boxers and a little bit of them being pre empted, and I've read the book. If anyone on here should know, it's Coco.

[palooka]

This fella I know had a winning record to start with and became a journeyman, he boxed Ahmet Oener in Germany and was paid over the odds to lose (not to hit the man hard).

[Junker]

Ive never heard of it. They simply know they're not going to win. I've heard of it on the unlicensed scene. I think it is a bit of bravado from the boxers and a little bit of them being pre empted, and I've read the book. If anyone on here should know, it's Coco.

and yet the promoters and managers interviewed all admitted it goes on (while denying they do it themselves) and Robert Smith from the board also acknowledged that it happens?

[olij999]

The picture in the book rang very true to me. I don't believe that the results of fights are ever pre-arranged, but it is well within the realms of possibility for people from a home fighter's team to ask a journeyman not to go too hard. From an area council point of view, the issue is finding out about it and proving it, as without evidence, an area council can do nothing.

Bigger point is that, as everyone knows, journeymen rarely go all out, for various reasons - for example, they want to fight again in a couple of weeks and don't want to get cut/stopped; or they don't think they will get the decision anyway even if they go all out; or that they won't get work if they start winning (a common one); or that if it is a 90:10 fight e.g. if they are up against a top prospect, what is the point? So they sometimes take a more defensive approach. All pretty understandable. So it is the effort, not the result, that is often pre-determined. Question is then what is an acceptable level of effort, which is what area councils have to spend hours and hours monitoring and reporting on, as the scores don't tell the story - e.g. a 40:36 loss could be anything from a great effort to a very negative non-effort with 5 punches per round thrown (and I have had the joy of watching Youtube footage in recent years and actually counting the punches thrown by one fighter). So it becomes a question of checking that journeymen are putting in a decent effort (regardless of the scores) and remaining fit and healthy, and taking action if they do not / are not.

PS - the ones I find funny are when an over-keen moderate home fighter decides he is going to make a name for himself by stopping a journeyman in, say, a four-rounder. Home fighter, often in some horrific sequinned shorts, goes all out with a blizzard of punches in the first two rounds while his fans go nuts. The journeyman, who has seen it all before, tucks up but counters more than usual as the home fighter is rashly leaving himself wide open and starting to run out of ideas. By the end of round 2, the home fighter is totally gassed, and the journeyman takes over, after which the home fighter either stumbles over the finish line after 4 rounds to get a narrow win or a draw, or gets stopped before the end (particularly if the journeyman is irritated and has a bit of a punch). Always makes me smile.

[Coco]

I can just say I was never aware of it in my day, and I'm friendly with most of Nobby's boys too. We were all so pleased when we did get wins, I can't see how any of us would have thrown a fight which was there for us.
Certainly when you are fighting better boys you know there level straight away and you do go on the defensive as it is the only way to get through a fight. The difference was that we would go into our shell rather than laying everything on the line. This isn't deliberately losing.
I do know there is a lot less fighters around, so perhaps it is harder for the matchmakers to get wins for their boys, maybe things have changed.
When I was fighting we also needed to put on a good show, while ultimately losing to get regular work.
So are these fighters getting paid extra to lose? There are so few journeymen around they would still get work if they picked up wins nowadays. I've seen Deakin on you tube, at times he has been unfit but he always went for it. Warbutton doesn't seem to be listening to these people telling him to lose.

[Wales]

I've heard of it on the unlicensed scene.

Yes. I know of one fighter who fought pretty much every week all over the UK. He got paid around £200 and, allegedly, has been known to say "give us £100 of yours and I'll get KO'd". Two lads who fought him told me this, both turned his offer down. Said fighter recently went pro with Malta license actually.

Like I say "allegedly"

[dookus]

So are these fighters getting paid extra to lose? There are so few journeymen around they would still get work if they picked up wins nowadays. I've seen Deakin on you tube, at times he has been unfit but he always went for it. Warbutton doesn't seem to be listening to these people telling him to lose.

According to the book, yes.

[Coco]

So are these fighters getting paid extra to lose? There are so few journeymen around they would still get work if they picked up wins nowadays. I've seen Deakin on you tube, at times he has been unfit but he always went for it. Warbutton doesn't seem to be listening to these people telling him to lose.

According to the book, yes.

How much extra do they get to lose?

[damianhucker1]

So are these fighters getting paid extra to lose? There are so few journeymen around they would still get work if they picked up wins nowadays. I've seen Deakin on you tube, at times he has been unfit but he always went for it. Warbutton doesn't seem to be listening to these people telling him to lose.

According to the book, yes.

How much extra do they get to lose?

I think its more of a case of they are being paid and they know their role... ie they are expected to lose rather than being explicitly told to lose.