Was Ezzard Charles the best LightHeavy ever?

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 29 Jan 2006, 18:12

A case could be made that he was. Victories over fighters who were avoided like the plague is a good reason in my opinion. Sorry if this has been posted before, Boxrec has opened my eyes a little to this guys talent. Opinions?

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 29 Jan 2006, 18:23

expug wrote:A case could be made that he was. Victories over fighters who were avoided like the plague is a good reason in my opinion. Sorry if this has been posted before, Boxrec has opened my eyes a little to this guys talent. Opinions?

Ezzard Charles was one of the greatest light heavyweights ever. I never really think of him as a light heavyweight but the fact remains he did amazing things in that division. As far as the #1 light heavyweight of all-time goes, a case could certainly be made for Ezzard. However, I would personally rank guys like Bob Foster, Archie Moore, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, George Gardiner, Kid McCoy and even Michael Spinks ahead of Charles, for the simple fact that I base my rankings off of what fighters actually accomplish in that division, not what they could have accomplished.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 Jan 2006, 18:31

ezzard charles rates # 1 light-H of all time simply because i dont think any light-H in history could beat him on his best day

barry · Post by **barry** » 29 Jan 2006, 20:39

Certainly one of the top three and very arguably number one. I have him third, but he could just as easy be first, or second.

1. Sam Langford
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Gene Tunney
5. Archie Moore

barry · Post by **barry** » 29 Jan 2006, 21:30

>>>But at 175, Charles beat a better class of fighters than any two of those guys put together.<<<

Like I said, you say that just because you don't know about the guys the other two fought...if you ever took the time to learn you might actually start sounding like you know what you're talking about!

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 29 Jan 2006, 22:51

Ezzard Charles is easily one of the best one or two light heavyweights of all-time.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 30 Jan 2006, 01:21

Ezzard Charles beat some great guys... He could easily have a case made for him as the number one light heavyweight in terms of either accomplishments or head-to-head ability, it doesn't matter. His resume is one of the best.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 30 Jan 2006, 02:26

..iceman...i'm curious..just what was it that ezzard didn't accomplish in the light heavy division? if it's not winning the title, look at the record and see how many light heavy champs he beat..when he himself was still a light heavy. including, of course, lesnevich..later as small heavies..because lesnevich's camp ducked him.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 30 Jan 2006, 12:41

Ezzard Charles is up there as the top LH ever. My top 10 would be:-
1. Sam Langford
2. Gene Tunney
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Archie Moore
5. Bob Foster
6. Michael Spinks
7. Roy Jones
8. Billy Conn
9. Tommy Loughran
10. John Henry Lewis

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 30 Jan 2006, 22:34

head to head I believe Charles is #1, but Id put Moore on top. Plus im a biased Moore fan!

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 30 Jan 2006, 23:13

sockdollanger wrote:head to head I believe Charles is #1, but Id put Moore on top. Plus im a biased Moore fan!

I'll answer Jaclem with this post too. Head to head I agree with you Charles would probably be #1. He beat Moore three times for crying out loud. And I would have no problem with anyone saying Charles would be #1. Those fighters I named didn't just win the light heavyweight title though. Clearly just winning a title isn't the only reason to rank one fighter above another. But those fighters I named clearly established themselves as the #1 hands down fighter in the division for a long period of years. I personally believe Charles never did this. Was Charles the #1 fighter in his division? Probably. But people who think Charles was undoubtedly the #1 light heavyweight of his era forget about two other guys who never got a title shot named Jimmy Bivins and Elmer Ray. Charles was 1-1 against Ray in the light heavyweight division, and even though he was 3-1 against Bivins, the time Bivins beat him, he flat out kicked Charles' ass. Even though it has become common place to say that Charles was flat out the #1 light heavyweight of his division, I would have to respectfully disagree. If I had to pick one out of those three, I would pick Charles, but it really never was clear cut in my opinion.

Oh, for those of you who have Charles as the #1 light heavyweight of all-time, you should be prepared to have Jimmy Bivins and Elmer Ray both in your top 5 or 6. Bivins and Ray would have been Light Heavyweight champion too had they received title shots, not just Charles.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 30 Jan 2006, 23:28

barry wrote:>>>But at 175, Charles beat a better class of fighters than any two of those guys put together.<<<

Like I said, you say that just because you don't know about the guys the other two fought...if you ever took the time to learn you might actually start sounding like you know what you're talking about!

Actually, he did beat a better class of fighters. Ezz's resume at LH is nonpareil. Probably the toughest stretch in the division's history.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 30 Jan 2006, 23:35

But people who think Charles was undoubtedly the #1 light heavyweight of his era forget about two other guys who never got a title shot named Jimmy Bivins and Elmer Ray. Charles was 1-1 against Ray in the light heavyweight division

elmer ray was a 6'2 195-200lb heavyweight. So how does this effect charles light-H career if elmer ray was NEVER a light-H?? also i might add charles was robbed by ray in the first fight

and even though he was 3-1 against Bivins, the time Bivins beat him, he flat out kicked Charles' ass.

charles was only 21 years old and young and had not yet reached his prime when he fought bivins. NOT TO MENTION charles was only 165lb when he fought bivins.

the next 3 times charles fought bivins when charles was now in his prime , charles dominated him.

Oh, for those of you who have Charles as the #1 light heavyweight of all-time, you should be prepared to have Jimmy Bivins and Elmer Ray both in your top 5 or 6

elmer ray WAS NOT a light-H, where did u get this idea???

bivins did not beat a prime charles, and charles was light when bivins beat him.

would have to respectfully disagree. If I had to pick one out of those three, I would pick Charles, but it really never was clear cut in my opinion.

once again elmer ray was 6'2 200lb heavyweight, THATS NOT A LIGHT-H.

charles went 3-1 vs bivins that CLEARLY means he was better, moore beat bivins 5 times. i think its clear charles was the better than bivins. however bivins was a great fighter and i rank him top 12 light-H.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 30 Jan 2006, 23:54

thanks B-Buster. I didn't want to go all through Ez's resume again!

Chuck1052 · Post by **Chuck1052** » 31 Jan 2006, 02:21

During the 1940s, it seemed that each weight division in
boxing had alot of terrific fighters. Taking a look at
Ezzard Charles's record, it has a virtual "who's who"
in the middleweight, light-heavyweight, and the
heavyweight divisions. In the light-heavyweight
division alone, Charles, Archie Moore, Jimmy
Bivins, Lloyd Marshall, and Joey Maxim were
active after World War II. If Charles was able to
compile an astounding record while facing such
fighters, a great case can be made for him being
the best 175-lber. ever.

- Chuck Johnston

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 31 Jan 2006, 06:28

Nah, Charles was a great fighter but I would say that te greatest Light Heavyweight ever is Archie Moore!

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 31 Jan 2006, 11:20

I used to think that also ,but Charles beat moore 3 out of 3 times K.Oing him once. Had him on the floor in the other two also.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 31 Jan 2006, 12:09

Crease wrote:Nah, Charles was a great fighter but I would say that te greatest Light Heavyweight ever is Archie Moore!

I CANNOT SEE THAT HAPPENING SPECIALLY WHEN THE OTHER GUY (CHARLES) WHUPPED YOU CLEANLY, FAIR AND SQUARE 3 TIMES :o

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 31 Jan 2006, 12:19

elmersalsa wrote:
Crease wrote:Nah, Charles was a great fighter but I would say that te greatest Light Heavyweight ever is Archie Moore!
I CANNOT SEE THAT HAPPENING SPECIALLY WHEN THE OTHER GUY (CHARLES) WHUPPED YOU CLEANLY, FAIR AND SQUARE 3 TIMES :o

Moore had not reached his best at the time of those fights, he was still developing his style. Also, at least two of the three fights were very competitive. But still, a great achievement by Ezzard Charles to get the three wins.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 31 Jan 2006, 12:25

Decagon wrote:Oh, bullshit Moore wasn't in his prime. People of the day said that Moore was in his prime at middleweight.

Check out his record against top opposition from the forties, then compare it to the fifties. Even Charles said Moore was still developing.

Who are these 'people of the day'?

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 31 Jan 2006, 12:34

Decagon wrote:When Ring magazine did "Roy Jones Against the All-Time Greats," it talked about that. Some would maintain that his opposition during the 1940s (Burley, Charles, Hogue, Booker, Chase, Marshall, Cocoa Kid, Bivins, Sheppard, Lytel) was considerably better than his opposition in the 1950s (Johnson, Maxim, Olson, Marciano, Patterson, Durelle). If you take out the fighters he lost to, the 1940s has an even bigger edge.

Add Baker and Valdes (from memory) to the fifties. Big guys, good wins. Moore was up-and-down in the forties, but dominant in the fifties.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 31 Jan 2006, 12:44

Moore was a GREEEEAAAATTTT FIGHTER...But Charles, no matter the era, had his number....What a fighter, specially when he threw that left hook. It was very fast and smooth.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 31 Jan 2006, 13:00

Decagon wrote:Moore was dominant against a weaker class. I don't care how big Valdez and Baker were; what's so special about them? They weren't the same class of fighter that the Cocoa Kid, Holmann Williams, Charley Burley, Jack Chase, Lloyd Marshall, et. al. were.

Johnson, Bivins and Maxim were in the same class as the rest, and Moore beat them, so I don't see what your point is?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 01 Feb 2006, 13:18

expug wrote:A case could be made that he was. Victories over fighters who were avoided like the plague is a good reason in my opinion. Sorry if this has been posted before, Boxrec has opened my eyes a little to this guys talent. Opinions?

I agree. He was willing to go up against anyone and everyone. He beat all of the guys nobody else wanted to fight. His fight record is a who's who of boxing. Personally I think you can make a case for him being #1 P4P. Most people rate Moore as the number 1 champion and Ezzard beat him. Archie was competitive and almost won one of them but the fact that Ezz pulled it out when it mattered tells you a lot about the man.

When you look at Burley, Bivins, Marshall, Maxim, Lesnevich and the HWs he beat it's really amazing.

It's a real shame he didn't get a crack at the MW title. I think he'd have won it and I think he'd have won the LH title. He'd certainly get a better P4P rating off many then.

Thanks for the thread expug...

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 01 Feb 2006, 13:34

Ezzard Charles was a "L-HW", rating him as a middleweight is not his true weight just the same as calling him a "true" heavyweight!

I can't rate ANY fighter as the best! I know different (did they all get the same chance, circumstances, or outright "theft"-cheated).

Was he "one-of-the GREATEST L-HW's that ever lived"

Absolutley NO QUESTION!!!

Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Lloyd Marshall

are my favorite fighters!

Was Ezzard Charles the best LightHeavy ever?

Was Ezzard Charles the best LightHeavy ever?

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