GGG vs Jacobs

[Butterbean]

heads up people. big news.
all of us that dig ggg, are wrong. He really isnt that good. The fact of the matter is, that alle of a sudden, and for the first time in history, the whole, the entire mw division just sucks. ggg really isnt good. its all the rest of the planets mw that suck. hell most of us keyboard fighters could beat him in the ring !

[caldo2025]

Roman Gonzalez's last 3 opponents

Stop. Roman's been relevant for a lot longer than this year.

RG fights around 112lbs and has been fighting at this weight for 2 years.

In that time, he fought arguably the two best men in the weight class other than him and several top 10 fighters The only top guy at 112 he hasn't faced is someone he beat at 108. And then there's his career prior to flyweight, which might be among the greatest of any sub-bantam in history.

Plus, let's be fair here. A boxer stepping up from 107 to 111 is not even close to the same as a boxer bumping up from 160 to 168 or low 170's.

A) Roman started at 105, won the world title, became a clear #1, and made multiple defenses.

B) 168 is as fake a weight class as 108.

This site is full of critics that feel that boxers must move up to a different weight class. Why?

No one argued that GGG has to move up. But if you want to compare Golovkin's career to Gonzalez's, then you have to deal with the fact that one of them was #1 at 3 weight classes and the other has possibly never been #1 at the single weight class he's competed at.

GGG is a middleweight and he should be measured on what he's doing in the division. Not for not wanting to abandon his goals to take on a super middleweight who's calling him out or a light heavy. GGG stepping up in weight to fight Ward would be like Roman Gonzalez stepping up to fight Lomachenko or Walters. Why aren't people criticizing RG for not taking on these fighters?

If Roman Gonzalez won a featherweight title, it would be historic. No minimumweight champion has ever managed to win a world title above super flyweight, much less three weight classes above that. It would be the equivalent of Floyd Mayweather beating Froch or DeGale. GGG is a long way from doing anything comparable.

Well, i'll never discredit anyone that puts forth a great argument like this so i'll first start off by saying, nice work. Well done.

The Significance of being the Middleweight Champion of the world trumps most of the other divisions in boxing especially anything south of 120 pounds. There's just no way that i'm going to consider a boxer weighing 110 pounds into any P4P list I come with. Think about it for a second and go with me here...When was the last time you even saw a 110 pound man? We're not exactly talking about the deepest of talent pools ya know? I can't remember the last 110 pound man i've seen.

I wrestled my whole life and collegiately and the weight classes sub 120 pounds were always the least competitive. Most of the schools in Division 2 couldn't even field a wrestler at that weight so they would forfeit those matches. Granted we are talking the world and the talent pool is vast with these weights in boxing but there are still physiological differences in the quality of boxers between Middleweight and what we are talking here.

That's just one of main reasons why I feel comparing Roman G and GGG is ridiculous and unfair.

[zorndeslammes]

name the better ones he hasnt faced ? please ?

The lineal ("true") middleweight champion is Canelo Alvarez. Before that, it was Miguel Cotto, and before that, it was Sergio Martinez. He also has not fought Andy Lee or Danny Jacobs, both of whom presently hold titles. Due to circumstance, he never faced Dimitry Pirog or Peter Quillin, and Felix Sturm avoided GGG like the plague. Aside from GGG, those are the best fighters to be in the division other than he during his run at MW, and he's fought none of them. This is not entirely his fault. However, if he ever expects to fight Canelo Alvarez (his clear, obvious, no bones about it best competition at MW, oh, and a blown up 154lb fighter), let me make it clear that Canelo, not GGG, will make the demands. Canelo sold 900,000 PPVs. Golovkin sold 1/9th of that.

heads up people. big news.
all of us that dig ggg, are wrong. He really isnt that good. The fact of the matter is, that alle of a sudden, and for the first time in history, the whole, the entire mw division just sucks. ggg really isnt good. its all the rest of the planets mw that suck. hell most of us keyboard fighters could beat him in the ring !

No. GGG looks really good. He is probably really good. For an assortment of reasons, he hasn't fought any really quality opponents. He is unlikely to any time soon and don't delude yourself into believing otherwise. I'd actually put it down that he'll fight Jacobs before he fights Canelo Alvarez. Really. And ultimately, until we see any fighter actually get tested by the elite, we never, ever know if they truly are what we think they are.

[SFW]

I don't care if ggg hasn't beaten anyone of Quillins calibre. He'd open a huge industrial-sized keg of hammerfuck on Quillin. Same for Jacobs, its academic to me.

Rofl that gets my vote for post of the year, thank you

[Pureist]

I agree, who do you guys want him to fight at MW that would satisfy you all that he was the real deal, you can only fight someone IF they're willing to get in the ring with you, everyone throws his name around but at the business end they want nothing to do with him

[caldo2025]

I have always tried to appreciate the differing opinions on this site no matter how ridiculous they seem to me but i've definitely hit a wall with these GGG detractors. I hate to say this but there's really no other way to put it...God knows, i've tried. But i've come to the conclusion that these people are not very smart at all. I'm not going to say "dumb" because they were able to turn on their computers and probably pay their cable bills that provide them with the internet access. There's some intelligence in being able to do that.

Now i'm assuming of course that these people are not trolls and they really feel that GGG is just a mediocre boxer benefitting by a weak schedule. If this assumption is correct and you are someone that falls into that category, I hate to be the one to tell you like this. But you're kind of dumb. Horrible thing to say, i know. I was raised better than that but i just feel it's my duty to let you guys know.

GGG is doing things in the modern day of boxing that we will probably never see again. Knock his opponents all you want but just use your eyes and analyze his talent and destructive power. Pull up any of list 20 fights, i'm not picky. Anyone that finds him mediocre and only a product of weak opposition is not very bright and their boxing opinion is about as useless as underwater fire prevention.

[Butterbean]

name the better ones he hasnt faced ? please ?

The lineal ("true") middleweight champion is Canelo Alvarez. Before that, it was Miguel Cotto, and before that, it was Sergio Martinez. He also has not fought Andy Lee or Danny Jacobs, both of whom presently hold titles. Due to circumstance, he never faced Dimitry Pirog or Peter Quillin, and Felix Sturm avoided GGG like the plague. Aside from GGG, those are the best fighters to be in the division other than he during his run at MW, and he's fought none of them. This is not entirely his fault. However, if he ever expects to fight Canelo Alvarez (his clear, obvious, no bones about it best competition at MW, oh, and a blown up 154lb fighter), let me make it clear that Canelo, not GGG, will make the demands. Canelo sold 900,000 PPVs. Golovkin sold 1/9th of that.

heads up people. big news.
all of us that dig ggg, are wrong. He really isnt that good. The fact of the matter is, that alle of a sudden, and for the first time in history, the whole, the entire mw division just sucks. ggg really isnt good. its all the rest of the planets mw that suck. hell most of us keyboard fighters could beat him in the ring !

No. GGG looks really good. He is probably really good. For an assortment of reasons, he hasn't fought any really quality opponents. He is unlikely to any time soon and don't delude yourself into believing otherwise. I'd actually put it down that he'll fight Jacobs before he fights Canelo Alvarez. Really. And ultimately, until we see any fighter actually get tested by the elite, we never, ever know if they truly are what we think they are.

sorry dude. youre ridicoulos. canelo mw champ. a guy that fights at lower catchweights.... for the mw title... ?
martinez, cotto are you seruios. ? what about the other lineal champs. for how long has ggg held how many mw titles ? you are either an complete idiot or a troll. what you pick i dont care. go away, youre ruining the forum with your daft shit.

[zorndeslammes]

sorry dude. youre ridicoulos. canelo mw champ. a guy that fights at lower catchweights.... for the mw title... ?

Yes. Most people recognize he is the MW champion or at the very least has a claim. Sorry to burst your bubble.

what about the other lineal champs.

At middleweight? There are none. There's one lineal champ. That's how the lineal/"true" championship thing works.

for how long has ggg held how many mw titles ?

Awhile depending on what belts you care about. But he wasn't the linear champion when he got his first interim WBA strap. He's never faced the linear champion. He's faced a lot of belt holders making their first defense of belts they won as vacants though.

[crusader]

Truax, Fletcher, and Smith--Jacob's best opponents apart from Quillin--were struggling with people like Abraham Han, getting blown out in two by Billy Joe Saunders, and drawing with journeymen like Ossie Duran not long before Jacobs faced them, and these types of showings and the general form they've showed me leading up to and after their bouts with Jacobs has led me to rank them comfortably beneath people like Murray, Geale, Lemieux, and Macklin, and probably on the same level as someone like Rosado.

Let's focus on Ossie Duran for a moment. Tough luck losses to Khurtsidze, Guerrero, and Gonzalez, beat failed prospect Latif Mundy, beat Matt Vanda, draws with Albert, close loss to Lopez. Only bad looking loss in his career as a tough, skilled journeyman was Matt Korobov via body shot. Otherwise, here's a guy fighting top 25/50 level comp and being pretty even there. He draws with Truax. The suggestion to me isn't "Truax is terrible, he couldn't beat Ossie Duran!," the suggestion is "Caleb Truax is at the same level as all the rest of these guys." And if Caleb Truax is, per the Don George, Derek Ennis, Kolle, Sigmon, etc fights, a "top 20 middleweight", then? how should I weigh his being #19 or #22 or what have you versus #40 or #50 when that tier contains Ossie Duran or Gabriel Rosado?

You bring up Abie Han; would it surprise you in the least if Han (or Fernando Guerrero, for that matter) managed to beat Sam Soliman? Or Willie Monroe Jr.? I doubt you could give me something you felt was definitive. I know I sure couldn't.

Saunders I'm not really including in this because he's really just a prospect at this stage and hasn't had the repeated moments in the limelight to use as a comparison. If Lee lights him up, then he joins the rest of the pack. If he dominates Lee, he goes right to the top along with Jacobs behind GGG.

No one suggested that the Duran draw indicates that Truax is terrible (putting words in mouths again? Just like the Wilder can't punch claims?). However, it's a result that to me, when looking at the rest of Truax's resume and his performances themselves, put him clearly below the GGG opponents I mentioned in relation to him. Moreover, since you keep going on about specific numbers, I'll note that if I didn't believe there was really anything to split a #21 guy from a #49 guy I wouldn't make a point of emphasizing these rankings, but in my view you're trying to minimize the differences in quality between GGG and Jacobs' opponents to an unreasonable degree, and I can't agree that from 3-60 there's very little to seperate the fighters.

I very rarely make predictions with certainty and I wouldn't when it comes to a match like Han-Monroe, though I would favor Monroe to win by clearly outboxing and outspeeding Han, and I don't feel that Monroe would be beaten down and stopped in 8 by someone like Glen Tapia. As for Saunders, he's never blown out a non-scrub opponent like he destroyed Fletcher (UDs over Pryce, Blackwell, Hall, Ryder, and O'Sullivan; SD over Eubank; 8th round stoppage over Blandamura) so the comparatively quick and one-sided nature of that fight reflects quite poorly on Fletcher regardless of whether Saunders beats Lee next.

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I just can't see how these equate to highly similar levels of success:

GGG
Murray
Lemieux
Macklin
Geale
Rubio
Adama
Stevens
Monroe
Proksa
Rosado
Khomitsky
Ishida
Gardner (beating Latimore and Olijade, and winning 5-6 rounds against AA suggests to me that he was better than Walker)

Jacobs
Quillin
Mora (dropped)
Truax
Fletcher
Smith (hurt twice)
Lorenzo
Walker (really??? )

Who/what else should I add to Jacobs' list? George Walton? Keenan Collins? Jose Varela? The Pirog KTFO?

[zorndeslammes]

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I just can't see how these equate to highly similar levels of success:

To me, they're basically equivalent levels of competition, it is just that Golovkin has beaten more of that level of competition than has Jacobs. Were GGG to slow to a fight every 9-10 months and Jacobs to go to 4 a year, that wide gap would begin to disappear were they to continue fighting these sorts of guys. Jacobs in this case has the detriment of a long cancer induced layoff and comeback that hurts him in this respect.

In the middleweight division, you have many, many situations where one guy's skill set and method of fighting makes him permanently susceptible to another guy. Fernando Guerrero is always going to have a suspect chin, and as such, big punchers will threaten him. GGG will obviously massacre him, sure, but so might Tureano Johnson and Matt Korobov. In return though, those two guys have significant limitations that put them at risk against other guys who Fernando Guerrero might in turn defeat. Guerrero has advantages (IMO) in lateral movement, youth, and physicality over Sam Soliman, who in turn is exceptionally tough, active, and uses the kind of unorthodox angles that make him a very significant threat even at 42 to beat Johnson, Korobov, and many, many others. Guerrero, for that reason, is always one win for someone else away from getting a win for himself that re-legitimizes himself in the middleweight class. But none of these guys can fully separate themselves from about Andy Lee down to, honestly, you start to hit the Nick Brinsons and Renan St. Justes of the world. There's 10-15 guys at minimum that can beat Lee in that mix, and then there's 10-15 guys who can beat that guy but lose to Lee.

Yes - styles make fights. This is a truism. But the class of athlete also makes fights. I hate to use this, but remember when Floyd said "Golovkin doesn't have any special effects?" There's no individual stylistic or easily measurable attributes which you can assess to him where he clearly has a huge gulf between himself and others in the sport. He's not fast enough to be Roy Jones Jr. nor does he have the kind of impregnable defensive posture that a Bernard Hopkins had. What Golovkin has, which becomes only obvious when he starts hitting people, is the sort of thudding, life shortening power that few fighters ever have the hope of obtaining built within the framework of a guy who is well versed in classic offensive boxing technique. He appears to be so athletically gifted that while he doesn't necessarily do anything outside the norm, he totally and completely dominates the opposition. There isn't a bad stylistic match up for him. There isn't anyone who, on paper, gives him even a hint trouble in this division. He's one guy who has consistently shown himself the capability to elevate above the fray. I think Jacobs might be just about there too now. Canelo kinda is by default. If others win fights in the coming months, they'll join that list and then, then~! we get some real class separation.

Also: based on what little we've seen of Golovkin actually having to shift into higher gears, it has been most prevalent against guys coming from 154, which is at the moment surprisingly deep (causation: bulk of fighters who are sport's largest US draws are located in and around that weight class). It goes to suggest to me that the average junior middleweight contender right now is by and large better than the average junior middleweight contender of the last 5 years. Just to tie that back in.

What about the KTFO loss to Pirog?

It doesn't help Jacobs. At the same time, Pirog is retired. He's not a player in this division any more. My sense is that Pirog could have been an exceptional fighter, but we don't know if that would have been the case. Do I take points off Jacobs for getting beat by a guy who had injuries later that cost him his future? I don't believe there's anyone, Golovkin excepted, would be able to do the same thing Pirog did at this moment. That was a very different thing than Jacobs getting wild trying to get a 1st round stop against Mora and being caught.

[Pureist]

Hey caldo, I think we have Fergusg back here, very similar writing style, what do you think

[zorndeslammes]

Fergusg was probably Rover IIRC. And I'm neither. Tunney/Freedom actually went through the trouble of finding my real name and posting it here years ago.

[Pureist]

How did you know I was referring to you

[crusader]

To me, they're basically equivalent levels of competition, it is just that Golovkin has beaten more of that level of competition than has Jacobs. Were GGG to slow to a fight every 9-10 months and Jacobs to go to 4 a year, that wide gap would begin to disappear were they to continue fighting these sorts of guys. Jacobs in this case has the detriment of a long cancer induced layoff and comeback that hurts him in this respect.

In the middleweight division, you have many, many situations where one guy's skill set and method of fighting makes him permanently susceptible to another guy. Fernando Guerrero is always going to have a suspect chin, and as such, big punchers will threaten him. GGG will obviously massacre him, sure, but so might Tureano Johnson and Matt Korobov. In return though, those two guys have significant limitations that put them at risk against other guys who Fernando Guerrero might in turn defeat. Guerrero has advantages (IMO) in lateral movement, youth, and physicality over Sam Soliman, who in turn is exceptionally tough, active, and uses the kind of unorthodox angles that make him a very significant threat even at 42 to beat Johnson, Korobov, and many, many others. Guerrero, for that reason, is always one win for someone else away from getting a win for himself that re-legitimizes himself in the middleweight class. But none of these guys can fully separate themselves from about Andy Lee down to, honestly, you start to hit the Nick Brinsons and Renan St. Justes of the world. There's 10-15 guys at minimum that can beat Lee in that mix, and then there's 10-15 guys who can beat that guy but lose to Lee.

Yes - styles make fights. This is a truism. But the class of athlete also makes fights. I hate to use this, but remember when Floyd said "Golovkin doesn't have any special effects?" There's no individual stylistic or easily measurable attributes which you can assess to him where he clearly has a huge gulf between himself and others in the sport. He's not fast enough to be Roy Jones Jr. nor does he have the kind of impregnable defensive posture that a Bernard Hopkins had. What Golovkin has, which becomes only obvious when he starts hitting people, is the sort of thudding, life shortening power that few fighters ever have the hope of obtaining built within the framework of a guy who is well versed in classic offensive boxing technique. He appears to be so athletically gifted that while he doesn't necessarily do anything outside the norm, he totally and completely dominates the opposition. There isn't a bad stylistic match up for him. There isn't anyone who, on paper, gives him even a hint trouble in this division. He's one guy who has consistently shown himself the capability to elevate above the fray. I think Jacobs might be just about there too now. Canelo kinda is by default. If others win fights in the coming months, they'll join that list and then, then~! we get some real class separation.

Also: based on what little we've seen of Golovkin actually having to shift into higher gears, it has been most prevalent against guys coming from 154, which is at the moment surprisingly deep (causation: bulk of fighters who are sport's largest US draws are located in and around that weight class). It goes to suggest to me that the average junior middleweight contender right now is by and large better than the average junior middleweight contender of the last 5 years. Just to tie that back in.

Of course I disagree with you that they've fought equivalent levels of opposition and to me you're inappropriately minimizing differences and placing fighters into a Procrustean bed. However, even if your suggestion were true, I think that the depth of talent one has defeated is a major factor in assessing their success level. If it's really the case that GGG and Jacobs have beaten the same level of opposition but GGG has defeated more opponents around that level, it means that he's generally defeated superior fighters (so he'd still have names like Proksa and Adama on his record when you get down the list to people like Keenan Collins for Jacobs). Moreover, in being able to defeat many opponents at that level rather than just a few, GGG has done more to show his dominance against this caliber of foe, and it's evident that he's not someone who will put together only a modest win streak before being taken out. I find that especially relevant in this case since Jacobs has already been dropped by Mora and hurt by a blown-up Smith, which suggests to me that he's more prone to an upset defeat at that level than GGG is. Without considering depth you may as well go by best win, and that is a highly incomplete way of comparing two fighters' success levels. Now the significance of depth tapers off after a certain point, but considering the paucity of decent opponents Jacobs has fought (check the list in my previous post) I don't think that point has been reached.

I don't believe that Jacobs has shown the type of class separation that GGG and Canelo have. He was dropped two fights ago by a non-puncher who barely beat Abraham Han one fight before, prior to that he looked lackluster in going 12 with Truax, and for what it's worth (it was a while ago but IMO relevant due to the small sample size of decent opponents he's fought) he only won a 6-4 type decision against Smith. He was explosive against Quillin but I suspect that the nature of that win was anomalous and I don't think he'll turn in many of those performances at such a level again. He's rebuilt well but still has to show me that he can consistently beat opponents better than Truax and Mora before I bracket him with GGG and Canelo.

It doesn't help Jacobs. At the same time, Pirog is retired. He's not a player in this division any more. My sense is that Pirog could have been an exceptional fighter, but we don't know if that would have been the case. Do I take points off Jacobs for getting beat by a guy who had injuries later that cost him his future? I don't believe there's anyone, Golovkin excepted, would be able to do the same thing Pirog did at this moment. That was a very different thing than Jacobs getting wild trying to get a 1st round stop against Mora and being caught.

No kidding it doesn't help Jacobs!

Pirog was clearly good, but I think he gets overrated based on destroying Jacobs. In most of his fights before and after that he did not show the same ability to hurt opponents and he usually put in workman-like performances; steady and skilled in an unorthodox manner but nothing special. I think that Ishida and Maciel both gave him decent fights in that he clearly won but had to work for his victories, and while his injuries may have hampered him at that point those performances are in line with what I typically saw earlier in his career. In my view GGG would've made farily easy work of Pirog and stopped him, but unfortunately Pirog withdrew from their bout and we'll never find out.

It wouldn't surprise me if Danny gets blasted out again by someone he's expected to beat--I just don't think he takes a good shot (I don't think his team does either--was 25-1 (12) Truax the biggest hitter until Quillin?) and I don't believe that he'll be able to consistently take out top opponents before they can reach him. Regardless, at this point I think the Pirog loss must be considered in an evaluation of Danny's success-level and it's one of multiple factors that leads me to rank GGG significantly ahead.

[klitoris]

Haymon would never let Jacobs even near GGG. Jacobs would get demolished in the first round. Idk how anyone can call him "champion". There are only 3 MW champions at the moment. GGG, Canelo and Lee.

[Evander]

The Jacobs attack can catch the odd significant punch during a trade, his volume was ok.
I wouldn't put him in with GGG at this point.

[Butterbean]

Who decides whom is the lineal champ ? with which of the four big organisations ?