what are ur top 15 middleweights of all time

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

anyone want to start it off

[dr_devious]

1. Marvin Hagler
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Harry Greb
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Roy Jones
8. Jake La Motta
9. Charley Burley
10. Bernard Hopkins
11. Mickey Walker
12. Rodrigo Valdez
13. James Toney
14. Tiger Flowers.
15. Mike McCallum

[surf-bat]

anyone want to start it off

Depends on criteria. For instance, I thin Harry Greb was a greater middleweight than Marvin Hagler. He fought more bouts against better opposition. But I don't think he would BEAT Hagler.

Do we judge by what they accomplished or who-beats-who?

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

anyone want to start it off

Depends on criteria. For instance, I thin Harry Greb was a greater middleweight than Marvin Hagler. He fought more bouts against better opposition. But I don't think he would BEAT Hagler.

Do we judge by what they accomplished or who-beats-who?

how bout both? if not, i would like to see ur head to head

[surf-bat]

anyone want to start it off

Depends on criteria. For instance, I thin Harry Greb was a greater middleweight than Marvin Hagler. He fought more bouts against better opposition. But I don't think he would BEAT Hagler.

Do we judge by what they accomplished or who-beats-who?

how bout both? if not, i would like to see ur head to head

Whew...you're really wanting to tax my imagination! OK..well, let's just say that I think Hagler, Monzon and Cerdan were the top three who-beats-who middles in history. I put them over all.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

OK..well, let's just say that I think Hagler, Monzon and Cerdan were the top three who-beats-who middles in history.

cerdan? interesting pick but i wouldnt even rate cerdan over lamotta. lamotta kicked the shit out of cerdan. he had cerdan knocked out in the first round out on his feet before cerdan got injured, and then lamotta hurt cerdans shoulder which was partly due to lamottas incredible strength. dont forget lamotta was basically using one hand too as he broken his hand early on so lamotta was hurting bad too. I think lamotta just had marcels #. marcel was a very good middle though, he looked good on film. i however think a guy like charley burley would have beat cerdan.

[surf-bat]

OK..well, let's just say that I think Hagler, Monzon and Cerdan were the top three who-beats-who middles in history.

cerdan? interesting pick but i wouldnt even rate cerdan over lamotta. lamotta kicked the shit out of cerdan. he had cerdan knocked out in the first round out on his feet before cerdan got injured, and then lamotta hurt cerdans shoulder which was partly due to lamottas incredible strength. dont forget lamotta was basically using one hand too as he broken his hand early on so lamotta was hurting bad too. I think lamotta just had marcels #. marcel was a very good middle though, he looked good on film. i however think a guy like charley burley would have beat cerdan.

Where exactly did you get this info? I've read scores of newspaper accounts of this fight and never heard anyone say that Jake broke his hand or was favoring it during the bout. I have seen rare home movie footage of this fight and Jake DID NOT have Marcel "out on his feet"(the very thought of light-punching Jake having Cerdan almost KO'd in one is beyond laughable)in the first. Again, I've seen it and Marcel traded with him punch-for-punch. He was then hip-tossed to the floor and injured his shoulder. He was grimacing like he had a mouth full of lemons.

The fact that Marcel went as long as he did with one useable arm(a fact VERIFIED in the write-ups, unlike this mysterious broken-hand LaMotta supposedly dealt with) says as much about Marcel's greatness and Jake's shortcomings. Can you imagine anyone going 10 rounds with a Marvin Hagler or a Carlos Monzon with only one arm? Neither can I.

That you defend both Marciano and LaMotta so stridently makes me feel that you have a certain love of Italian fighters. I'm the same way towards Irish pugs!

[DoubleM]

In a head-to-head sense, Marvelous Marvin and King Carlos are undoubtedly my top two (and also in terms of accomplishments, infact).

I'll do a proper list tomorrow.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

nero,


no doubt marcel was a great fighter. he kept his hands high threw a wicked right hand, possesed a great arsenal of punches and threw very accurate punches. he also had ound boxing skills. he wwas basically a good all around boxerpuncher. i rate marcel in my top 10 just barely.

if u give me ur email, i will send u an article of the new york times describing the cerdan-lamotta fight.


"lamotta breaks left hand in 2nd. he broke the 2nd knucle of the hand in the 2nd and was robbed of this weapon for hooking or swining purposes."- new york times


"in the first, lamotta almost knocked out his rival. a long left hook to the jaw drove his cerdan against the ropes midway through the session, the champions knees buckling under him."- new work times



"so furious was lamotta in his bid for victory that he wrestled cerdan across the ring trying to shake off the desperatley holding champion. finally he flung cerdan down with a vicious thrust that many thought was a knockdown. referee weber refused to start a count and helped a stunned cerdan back to his feet."- new york times



"cerdan has an agreement for a return title bout with lamotta within ninety days. cerdan would be advised wisely to forget all about it, though. he is flirting with disaster even entertaining the though of facing lamotta in the ring again."- new york times




i will admit i have a soft spot for italian fighters

[Randineous]

if u give me ur email, i will send u an article of the new york times describing the cerdan-lamotta fight.

Do you have a secondary source in regards to that fight, Brockton?

Like maybe one from the fight's location of Detroit, or even a newspaper account that isn't from Jake LaMotta's hometown?

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

if u give me ur email, i will send u an article of the new york times describing the cerdan-lamotta fight.

Do you have a secondary source in regards to that fight, Brockton?

Like maybe one from the fight's location of Detroit, or even a newspaper account that isn't from Jake LaMotta's hometown?

yes i understand this article was lamottas hometown and prob a little bias, but most of the facts it said like about lamotta breaking his hand were true. i will get u a secondary source.

[jimglen]

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:59 pm Post subject: All time Middleweight computer Fantasy tournament ?????

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Has anyone ever made a famous middleweight computer tournament??? I feel some of the best fights are at middleweight and I already made a heavyweight tournament and I was wondering IS ANYONE INTERESTED IN SEEING ME MAKE A DOUBLE ELIMINATION MIDDDLEWEIGHT TOURNAMENT???

i would like to make one but i need goo feedback and arguments about some matches so we can get some nice debates going. i want people to contribute to my making it. WOULD ANYONE LIKE TO MAKE THE LIST OF THE MIDDLWEIGHTS WHO SHOULD BE IN IT??? I PLAN ON IT BEING 16 MAN. OR SHOULD I GO FOR 32???

Are you going to do it this time, and include some of the great names you solicited from board members last time?

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

i was going to do one when i had time. i would love to see you do it.


make it 32 man

[Randineous]

yes i understand this article was lamottas hometown and prob a little bias, but most of the facts it said like about lamotta breaking his hand were true. i will get u a secondary source.

Brockton, do you have that New York Times 'Encyclodpedia of Sports' boxing volume, which has a boatload of their articles dating back to around the Dempsey/Willard fight (it was published in about 1980, so it only went as far as the mid/late 70's)?

If not, then that might be something you'd be interested in, and if you can track it down you're liable to find it very, very cheap. I don't have the book anymore, but I initially bought it way back in about 1982/83 and it cost me less than two bucks. One of the very best "deals" I have ever found when it comes to a boxing book.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

yes i understand this article was lamottas hometown and prob a little bias, but most of the facts it said like about lamotta breaking his hand were true. i will get u a secondary source.

Brockton, do you have that New York Times 'Encyclodpedia of Sports' boxing volume, which has a boatload of their articles dating back to around the Dempsey/Willard fight (it was published in about 1980, so it only went as far as the mid/late 70's)?

If not, then that might be something you'd be interested in, and if you can track it down you're liable to find it very, very cheap. I don't have the book anymore, but I initially bought it way back in about 1982/83 and it cost me less than two bucks. One of the very best "deals" I have ever found when it comes to a boxing book.

no i dont man, it sounds very interesting. I would be glad to get it. do you know where I can find it?

[Expug]

O.K., Ill give it a pop. Hagler, Monzon, Greb, Robinson, Mickey WAlKER, Charley Burley, Roy Jones , Hopkins, Tony ZAle, Lamotta, Tiger Flowers, Dick Tiger, Gene Fullmer , Carmen Basilio, Rodrigo Valdes.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

does anyone include holman williams or lloyd marshal in there list. these guys in a head to head list are probably top 10 middles. or what about ezzard charles?

[Randineous]

yes i understand this article was lamottas hometown and prob a little bias, but most of the facts it said like about lamotta breaking his hand were true. i will get u a secondary source.

Brockton, do you have that New York Times 'Encyclodpedia of Sports' boxing volume, which has a boatload of their articles dating back to around the Dempsey/Willard fight (it was published in about 1980, so it only went as far as the mid/late 70's)?

If not, then that might be something you'd be interested in, and if you can track it down you're liable to find it very, very cheap. I don't have the book anymore, but I initially bought it way back in about 1982/83 and it cost me less than two bucks. One of the very best "deals" I have ever found when it comes to a boxing book.

no i dont man, it sounds very interesting. I would be glad to get it. do you know where I can find it?

I'm not sure, but maybe check E-bay or something? Or maybe even the New York Times directly?

They published back articles on quite a few different sports and gave each sport their own volume/book. About 15 in all, I think. But the boxing volume basically covered every Heavyweight title fight from 1919-1976 or so, as well as many of the major or championship fights in the other divisions.

[surf-bat]

if u give me ur email, i will send u an article of the new york times describing the cerdan-lamotta fight.

Do you have a secondary source in regards to that fight, Brockton?

Like maybe one from the fight's location of Detroit, or even a newspaper account that isn't from Jake LaMotta's hometown?

Exactly. Who wrote that account? LaMotta's mom? Cousin? Paisan? No other newspaper accounts support this shamelessly biased account of the fight. Like I said, I've seen the fight. Jake really went after him like a junky fighting over a resin-covered spoon. He was grabbing, holding and hitting, pulling and yanking, but in no way was Cerdan in any serious trouble until he was thrown to the ground. And he still went several more rounds with Jake. What does that tell you?

[surf-bat]

suddenly LaMotta has gone from a decent-hitting(at best) puncher with 30 KOs in 106 fights(pretty dismal when compared to his reputation) to this devastating KO puncher who staggers and nearly stops great champs in a single round.

Boy, the LaMotta myth continues to grow. Thanks Mr. Scorcese!

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

lamotta broke his hand in the 2nd round and he could barely use his left hand yet he still beat the shit out of cerdan for 7 of the 9 rounds. i mean cerdan hurt his shoulder badly too and he was most likely hurting worse than lamotta, but part of the reason he was injured is due to lamottas strength. i feel lamotta would have won the rematch if cerdan hadnt tragically died. cerdan was a classy fellow.

[surf-bat]

[quote="BrocktonBlockbuster49"]lamotta broke his hand in the 2nd round and he could barely use his left hand

Again, the unbiased accounts do not support this claim. Not a single one. He was firing lefts and rights the entire fight, whereas Marcel was using only one hand.

Still went quite a few rounds with Jake, though. Food for thought.

I think Cerdan wins the rematch because he was an overall better fighter than LaMotta. Other than chin and strength, Jake has no advantages over him that I can see. Marcel had an excellent defense, hit hard with both hands, was fast, skilled and strong.

[Collins2000]

lamotta broke his hand in the 2nd round and he could barely use his left hand

Again, the unbiased accounts do not support this claim. Not a single one. He was firing lefts and rights the entire fight, whereas Marcel was using only one hand.

Still went quite a few rounds with Jake, though. Food for thought.

I think Cerdan wins the rematch because he was an overall better fighter than LaMotta. Other than chin and strength, Jake has no advantages over him that I can see. Marcel had an excellent defense, hit hard with both hands, was fast, skilled and strong.

Interesting stuff. Nero, can you post a couple of direct quotes from any newspaper reports which are radically different to the the quotes Brocky posted. I'm interested as several posters on here seem to think newspaper reports are like holy writ. I'd like to see instances where they differ so radically and then wonder what would happen if one account was irretrievably lost...

[surf-bat]

lamotta broke his hand in the 2nd round and he could barely use his left hand

Again, the unbiased accounts do not support this claim. Not a single one. He was firing lefts and rights the entire fight, whereas Marcel was using only one hand.

Still went quite a few rounds with Jake, though. Food for thought.

I think Cerdan wins the rematch because he was an overall better fighter than LaMotta. Other than chin and strength, Jake has no advantages over him that I can see. Marcel had an excellent defense, hit hard with both hands, was fast, skilled and strong.

Interesting stuff. Nero, can you post a couple of direct quotes from any newspaper reports which are radically different to the the quotes Brocky posted. I'm interested as several posters on here seem to think newspaper reports are like holy writ. I'd like to see instances where they differ so radically and then wonder what would happen if one account was irretrievably lost...

Happy to. Just wait till tomorrow. I'll go to the library and pull up the LA Times Historical Archive and post.

Oh, and for a radically contradictory newspaper account of a fight, go to boxrec and check out the first Greb/Norfolk bout.

[surf-bat]

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Stanley Ketchel
5. Ray Robinson
6. Jack Dempsey(Nonpareil)
7. Marcel Cerdan
8. Tommy Ryan
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Kid McCoy

I'll have to think about the rest.