Lennox confused by Fury words

[Tuan_Jim]

I'm alarmed I have to point this out on a boxing forum, but Lennox Lewis never bothered with the WBO title because it wasn't a serious title in the entire period he boxed professionally.

While Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield were busy unifying the division, Herbie Hide was knocking men like Willi Fischer about in a Norwich leisure centre. No one - and I mean no one - took the WBO seriously. It's why nobody ever called Michael Moorer a three-time heavyweight champion, or questioned Mike Tyson's claim because Francesco Damiani was fighting Daniel Netto in Italy. It would be absurd.

People seem desperate to recognise the WBO because it beefs up those precious Klitschko brothers stats. Now they suddenly gain numerous 'world title defences' - versus bonafide journeymen like Ed Mahone, Obed Sullivan, Derek Jefferson, Charles Shufford, Jameel McCline (etc etc) and a couple of pungent cadavers like Mercer and Botha. The agenda is all-too transparent.

[SNG]

You live in a fantasy world, pal.

[Ally-M1]

I'm alarmed I have to point this out on a boxing forum, but Lennox Lewis never bothered with the WBO title because it wasn't a serious title in the entire period he boxed professionally.

While Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield were busy unifying the division, Herbie Hide was knocking men like Willi Fischer about in a Norwich leisure centre. No one - and I mean no one - took the WBO seriously. It's why nobody ever called Michael Moorer a three-time heavyweight champion, or questioned Mike Tyson's claim because Francesco Damiani was fighting Daniel Netto in Italy. It would be absurd.

People seem desperate to recognise the WBO because it beefs up those precious Klitschko brothers stats. Now they suddenly gain numerous 'world title defences' - versus bonafide journeymen like Ed Mahone, Obed Sullivan, Derek Jefferson, Charles Shufford, Jameel McCline (etc etc) and a couple of pungent cadavers like Mercer and Botha. The agenda is all-too transparent.

Good post. I personally agree.

Though I'll admit to laughing when I read 'Herbie Heid'.

I remember him with the WBO. Testament to how little it meant back then.

[tobyh5]

I'm alarmed I have to point this out on a boxing forum, yadda yadda .

When did I say that I rated the WBO or any of those chaps? My point was going off the argument put forth about titles and belts. One cannot be selective in ones argument. Cannot on one hand make out that the lack of possession of a belt is an issue then in the next breath state that another belt was bollox because clowns held it.

[SteveO]

Nobody has unified the division since Lennox Lewis. Cry all you want, but read up on boxing history.

On October 5th 2013 a new lineage was created when Wladimir Klitschko defeated Alexander Povetkin.
Povetkin was the world #2 ranked fighter). Wlad's brother, WBC champion Vitali, had recently lost his #2 ranking due to not having fought for over a year.
Obviously, Tyson Fury is now the lineal heavyweight champion.

[tobyh5]

Nobody has unified the division since Lennox Lewis. Cry all you want, but read up on boxing history.

On October 5th 2013 a new lineage was created when Wladimir Klitschko defeated Alexander Povetkin.
Povetkin was the world #2 ranked fighter). Wlad's brother, WBC champion Vitali, had recently lost his #2 ranking due to not having fought for over a year.
Obviously, Tyson Fury is now the lineal heavyweight champion.

I'm happy to go with that. Number one v Number two creates a new line. Happened after Tunney and after Marciano.

[Tuan_Jim]

You live in a fantasy world, pal.

Better sign off with that than attempt a debate, you're in a pretty untenable position. Your comments in this thread demonstrate that you're not too sharp on heavyweight history. Stick to your cumbersome weightlifter heavyweights, what happened 1892-2000 won't appeal to your taste.

[Tuan_Jim]

I'm alarmed I have to point this out on a boxing forum, yadda yadda .

When did I say that I rated the WBO or any of those chaps? My point was going off the argument put forth about titles and belts. One cannot be selective in ones argument. Cannot on one hand make out that the lack of possession of a belt is an issue then in the next breath state that another belt was bollox because clowns held it.

This is far too tangled for me to comprehend. Untwist thy thoughts and explain.

[Tuan_Jim]

Nobody has unified the division since Lennox Lewis. Cry all you want, but read up on boxing history.

On October 5th 2013 a new lineage was created when Wladimir Klitschko defeated Alexander Povetkin.
Povetkin was the world #2 ranked fighter). Wlad's brother, WBC champion Vitali, had recently lost his #2 ranking due to not having fought for over a year.
Obviously, Tyson Fury is now the lineal heavyweight champion.

Obviously? I dispute.

I would love to know what would happen if Wlad K engaged Povetkin in a boxing match. Unfortunately the referee allowed it to be some mixed-rules MMA contest - and no one had briefed the Povetkin camp. 300+ holds initiated by Wladimir Klitschko. Somewhere in Nigeria, Henry Akinwande was fuming.

[Boxerbeetle]

This thread perfectly demonstrates exactly why I pay no attention to 'lineal' or 'undisputed' claims.

[SteveO]

Nobody has unified the division since Lennox Lewis. Cry all you want, but read up on boxing history.

On October 5th 2013 a new lineage was created when Wladimir Klitschko defeated Alexander Povetkin.
Povetkin was the world #2 ranked fighter). Wlad's brother, WBC champion Vitali, had recently lost his #2 ranking due to not having fought for over a year.
Obviously, Tyson Fury is now the lineal heavyweight champion.

Obviously? I dispute.

You can dispute it all you like, makes no odds to me but I suggest you google 'Klitschko-Povetkin lineal title' and see what you come up with. A fact is a fact - like it or not.

[Tuan_Jim]

On October 5th 2013 a new lineage was created when Wladimir Klitschko defeated Alexander Povetkin.
Povetkin was the world #2 ranked fighter). Wlad's brother, WBC champion Vitali, had recently lost his #2 ranking due to not having fought for over a year.
Obviously, Tyson Fury is now the lineal heavyweight champion.

Obviously? I dispute.

You can dispute it all you like, makes no odds to me but I suggest you google 'Klitschko-Povetkin lineal title' and see what you come up with. A fact is a fact - like it or not.

I did - and not a single reliable source. All blogs and boxing forums. Nothing of any authority.

Thought you were a historian, Steveo. No historian could recognise such a weak pairing as lineal. How ye disappoint me.

[SNG]

You live in a fantasy world, pal.

Better sign off with that than attempt a debate, you're in a pretty untenable position. Your comments in this thread demonstrate that you're not too sharp on heavyweight history. Stick to your cumbersome weightlifter heavyweights, what happened 1892-2000 won't appeal to your taste.

Keep going! This is hilarious.

Ps I hate Wladimir Klitschko, check my posts. The idea I would attempt to build up the WBO to build them is a joke (I didn't even mention the WBO, one person made a passing remark) and you call it an agenda? I feel a bit sorry for you, but keep on arguing about things no one has said.

[SNG]

Thought you were a historian, Steveo. No historian could recognise such a weak pairing as lineal. How ye disappoint me.

The ability of the fighters is a complete irrelevance, It just clicked to me what the issue is, you have the agenda. You hate Wladimir Klitschko to the point of talking bollocks on here. A new lineage is created when the top two face off, most places recognise Klit-Chagaev, I'm happy to go with Wlad-Povetkin, either way, Tyson Fury is the lineal heavyweight champion.

xx

[SNG]

http://espn.go.com/blog/dan-rafael/post ... ge-matters

Dan Rafael recognises Chagaev Klitschko, but we'll listen to you cause you know more, eh?

The Ring belt recognised Klitschko-Chagaev, but again, we'll listen to you.

http://www.si.com/boxing/photos/2012/11 ... -champions

Sports illustrated recognised Wlad as lineal

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/achamp.htm

CyberBoxingZone recognise Klitscko-Chagaev

[SteveO]

Obviously? I dispute.

You can dispute it all you like, makes no odds to me but I suggest you google 'Klitschko-Povetkin lineal title' and see what you come up with. A fact is a fact - like it or not.

I did - and not a single reliable source. All blogs and boxing forums. Nothing of any authority.

Thought you were a historian, Steveo. No historian could recognise such a weak pairing as lineal. How ye disappoint me.

What official authority would you like?
Throughout history when a reigning world champion retires, the #1 and #2 contenders fight to create a new lineage. This is exactly what happened with Klitschko and Povetkin.
You don't have to like it or agree with it but it is a fact enshrined in boxing history.

[tobyh5]

Throughout history when a reigning world champion retires, the #1 and #2 contenders fight to create a new lineage. This is exactly what happened with Klitschko and Povetkin.
You don't have to like it or agree with it but it is a fact enshrined in boxing history.

Yeah I am with that. It is a shame that there is not really a "man who beat the man" thing which people use, but then this has happened three times before as pointed out and that ^^ is how it was dealt with in boxing history.

Jeffries, Tunney and Marciano all retired with the belt and each time a new guy took over without beating the previous guy (although six years later, Jeffries did lose to a new champion but Johnson was recognised as the true champion even without that win)

[SteveO]

Jeffries, Tunney and Marciano all retired with the belt and each time a new guy took over without beating the previous guy

Yes, Joe Frazier and Larry Holmes also became lineal champions that way. Though they did both later defeat Muhammad Ali.

[Tuan_Jim]

http://espn.go.com/blog/dan-rafael/post ... ge-matters

Dan Rafael recognises Chagaev Klitschko, but we'll listen to you cause you know more, eh?

The Ring belt recognised Klitschko-Chagaev, but again, we'll listen to you.

http://www.si.com/boxing/photos/2012/11 ... -champions

Sports illustrated recognised Wlad as lineal

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/achamp.htm

CyberBoxingZone recognise Klitscko-Chagaev

Doesn't all this contradict the apparently authoritarian voice here that Klit/Povetkin was for the vacant lineal title? How could they be settling it had Klit/Chagaev settled the matter? It just shows you how transient and unreliable every link you post is. A fight is for the lineal title - unless a more suitable fight arises in the future, then we've erased the prior fight from contention. Happened to Klit/Chagaev, might well happen with Klit/Povetkin.

[Tuan_Jim]

Jeffries, Tunney and Marciano all retired with the belt and each time a new guy took over without beating the previous guy

Yes, Joe Frazier and Larry Holmes also became lineal champions that way. Though they did both later defeat Muhammad Ali.

When exactly did Joe Frazier become the lineal champ prior to fighting Muhammad Ali? I look forward to your response.

When exactly did Larry Holmes become the lineal champ prior to fighting Muhammad Ali? I look forward to your response.

[SNG]

http://espn.go.com/blog/dan-rafael/post ... ge-matters

Dan Rafael recognises Chagaev Klitschko, but we'll listen to you cause you know more, eh?

The Ring belt recognised Klitschko-Chagaev, but again, we'll listen to you.

http://www.si.com/boxing/photos/2012/11 ... -champions

Sports illustrated recognised Wlad as lineal

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/achamp.htm

CyberBoxingZone recognise Klitscko-Chagaev

Doesn't all this contradict the apparently authoritarian voice here that Klit/Povetkin was for the vacant lineal title? How could they be settling it had Klit/Chagaev settled the matter? It just shows you how transient and unreliable every link you post is. A fight is for the lineal title - unless a more suitable fight arises in the future, then we've erased the prior fight from contention. Happened to Klit/Chagaev, might well happen with Klit/Povetkin.

No, you made the point that Vitali was active when Klit fought Chagaev, so then he retired and Wlad fought Povetkin. Personally I've had Wlad as the man for years, since Chagaev, but for arguments sake I'll happily go with the Povetkin fight. Show me what bit of boxing history a boxing historian such as yourself needs to teach me to show my why my reasoning is wrong? You can hate him as a fighter, and rue what his reign has done to heavyweight boxing and I'll agree with you but he has been a very dominant champion and has regularly beaten the best fighters in the division.

[WildWaylon]

Taken from Lennox Lewis social media page.

"I'm honestly at a loss. I just heard Tyson Fury calling me out AGAIN because I apparently "hate him and am jealous of him". Neither are true and just when I thought we squashed anything between us, I hear his interview.
It seems to me that Tyson Fury has a LOT to say, EXCEPT when he's in my face. I had dinner with him the night before his win over Klitschko and it was all very cordial and the next day he even apologised for the things he's said.

I thought we were good so you can imagine my surprise to hear this interview today. I'm honestly not sure if he's got two personalities or what.

Nonetheless, he's done NOTHING for ME to be jealous of nor do I hate him. I'm actually starting to think its the other way around. In my prime, I didn't call out retired champions. In my era, we respected them. Ali is my idol. If he picked Holyfield or Tyson to beat me, he would STILL be my idol.
With the exception of Bowe, I've gotten along well, and shown plenty of love and respect, to all of my opponents, as well as the champions before me. This is how it's done.

For a man that has battled and fought very hard to get the respect he deserves, it's seems to me that he missed the most important lesson... that it's a two way street."

Class.

As he says, there's nothing Tyson has done, or is likely to do in all honesty, that Lennox needs to be jealous. A past prime Lennox at 37, went to war with a prime Vitali K, and stopped him with a brutal cut, after landing some absolutely humdingers on him, whilst Fury danced around for 12 rounds against a 40 year old Wlad, to win in an absolute snorefest.

Horrible fight and a poor way to win on points. He wont get away with those tactics against Wilder. Fury is an @rsehole and Lennox is a gentleman.

[Tuan_Jim]

No, you made the point that Vitali was active when Klit fought Chagaev, so then he retired and Wlad fought Povetkin. Personally I've had Wlad as the man for years, since Chagaev, but for arguments sake I'll happily go with the Povetkin fight. Show me what bit of boxing history a boxing historian such as yourself needs to teach me to show my why my reasoning is wrong? You can hate him as a fighter, and rue what his reign has done to heavyweight boxing and I'll agree with you but he has been a very dominant champion and has regularly beaten the best fighters in the division.

See I just can't agree that a man can dominate while another man who is better than him is active in the same division with another belt. I'm mystified why this idea of his dominance is the prevailing opinion. It's not that I expect him to box his brother. The whole thing is just an anomaly. I admit I do hate him as a fighter, I think he is a poor sport both in and out of the ring, but there are plenty of fighters who I hate who I would not withhold recognition from. The career of Wladimir Klitschko seems to be one of the most beatified and carefully stage managed in boxing history. Floyd Mayweather is similar, but at least when Mayweather got his bell rung he had the balls to fight. The feeble manner in which Wladimir surrendered his titles confirmed a lot of the, shall we say, critical analysis regarding his talents.

If we must accept Klit/Povetkin as lineal, then it is a two-year reign of dominance, not the ten years that have been repeatedly parroted (and which somehow absorbs his brother's work), and especially not the 11 years I have heard repeatedly stated by outlets such as the BBC (11 years ago he was in gory tatters). As a longtime lover of the heavyweights, I can't help but look at Klit/Pov and Fury/Klit and weep.

[SteveO]

When exactly did Joe Frazier become the lineal champ prior to fighting Muhammad Ali? I look forward to your response.
When exactly did Larry Holmes become the lineal champ prior to fighting Muhammad Ali? I look forward to your response.

You must surely already know the answer, but just in case you don't......
Ali announced his retirement on February 3rd 1970 so that #2 heavyweight Jimmy Ellis could fight #1 heavyweight Joe Frazier for the undisputed (and lineal) title.
Ali announced his retirement again on June 27th 1979. #1 heavyweight Larry Holmes defeated #2 heavyweight Ken Norton to claim the lineal title.
The fact that Ali subsequently came out of retirement to fight both Frazier and Holmes makes no difference.
For example if Ali was still the lineal champion when his boxing license was restored on June 28th 1970 then his comback contests agains Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena would be recognised as world title fights.....and they're not.

[Tuan_Jim]

When exactly did Joe Frazier become the lineal champ prior to fighting Muhammad Ali? I look forward to your response.
When exactly did Larry Holmes become the lineal champ prior to fighting Muhammad Ali? I look forward to your response.

You must surely already know the answer, but just in case you don't......
Ali announced his retirement on February 3rd 1970 so that #2 heavyweight Jimmy Ellis could fight #1 heavyweight Joe Frazier for the undisputed (and lineal) title.
Ali announced his retirement again on June 27th 1979. #1 heavyweight Larry Holmes defeated #2 heavyweight Ken Norton to claim the lineal title.
The fact that Ali subsequently came out of retirement to fight both Frazier and Holmes makes no difference.
For example if Ali was still the lineal champion when his boxing license was restored on June 28th 1970 then his comback contests agains Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena would be recognised as world title fights.....and they're not.

Steve, your facts are off mate. Ken Norton #2 heavyweight? He was the WBC heavyweight champion. And I've never heard anyone, ever, call that fight a lineal heavyweight title fight. Never. Not in Holmes' book. Not in Nortons. Now I'm very happy to learn, as always, but you're already demoting Norton in the post you've written.

Also, Muhammad Ali was an active fighter at the time of Norton/Holmes - Leon Spinks was the lineal heavyweight champion.

NB. A recurring theme in both the Frazier and Holmes books is how press and public were denying them their recognition until they took on Muhammad Ali.