Better Legacy: Wladimir Klitschko or Roy Jones, Jr.?

Freedom2013 · Post by **Freedom2013** » 13 Dec 2015, 17:33

Two faded old fighters who had great runs at the top of their respective divisions.

Who has the better legacy?

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 13 Dec 2015, 17:39

Jesus H Christ.

Ricky_ · Post by **Ricky_** » 13 Dec 2015, 18:27

Roy Jones Jr's legacy includes wins over James Toney & Bhop... and the small matter of being possibly the greatest ever SMW in his prime. Infact he's so highly rated in his prime many boxing analysists put a prime RJJjr among the greatest ever to grace a boxing ring.

Wladimir's legacy is getting his ass kicked by Brewster, Sanders, Peter before redefining his fight style to dominate an incredibly weak decade of HW boxing, where his only real contemporary happened to be his brother. Before, ofcourse, losing to Tyson Fury in a shameful fight where he threw about 8 punches per round.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 13 Dec 2015, 18:45

Ricky_ wrote:Roy Jones Jr's legacy includes wins over James Toney & Bhop... and the small matter of being possibly the greatest ever SMW in his prime. Infact he's so highly rated in his prime many boxing analysists put a prime RJJjr among the greatest ever to grace a boxing ring.

Wladimir's legacy is getting his ass kicked by Brewster, Sanders, Peter before redefining his fight style to dominate an incredibly weak decade of HW boxing, where his only real contemporary happened to be his brother. Before, ofcourse, losing to Tyson Fury in a shameful fight where he threw about 8 punches per round.

But...but...no matter, dominating over stiffs is still....dominating!!

Freedom2013 · Post by **Freedom2013** » 13 Dec 2015, 19:38

Riddick Blowe wrote:Jesus Christ.

Obviously he has a better legacy than any boxer, but this is about Klitschko and Jones.

SNG · Post by **SNG** » 13 Dec 2015, 19:43

Freedom2013 wrote:
Riddick Blowe wrote:Jesus Christ.
Obviously he has a better legacy than any boxer, but this is about Klitschko and Jones.

Rubbish.

Wladimir Klitschko and Roy Jones K01 against Jesus.

Ricky_ · Post by **Ricky_** » 13 Dec 2015, 19:45

SNG wrote:
Freedom2013 wrote:
Riddick Blowe wrote:Jesus Christ.
Obviously he has a better legacy than any boxer, but this is about Klitschko and Jones.
Rubbish.

Wladimir Klitschko and Roy Jones K01 against Jesus.

He'd come back.

zorndeslammes · Post by **zorndeslammes** » 13 Dec 2015, 21:27

Wlad (at his peak of success, early on was different) had a style that I hated, but he was willing to fight all comers and ultimately take some real risks in matchmaking, even when it wasn't truly required of him. Roy had a style I loved, but took virtually no real risks in matchmaking and became the case study against long term contracts between networks and fighters. I prefer to go with a push. Their legacies I think, 20-30 years from now, will be seen somewhat similarly by boxing scribes, though there will always be a long list of apologists for Roy that request/demand that all negativity about their career from during his career be stricken from the record so as to not assail their memories.

davie · Post by **davie** » 13 Dec 2015, 23:14

Riddick Blowe wrote:Jesus H Christ.

He'd get crucified against RJJ

Evander · Post by **Evander** » 13 Dec 2015, 23:42

Numbers can look better on paper and Klitschko may have them, for a long time Wladimir has done very well and is accomplished.
Setting the boxing bar higher in terms of skill surely rests with Jones.

campfire · Post by **campfire** » 14 Dec 2015, 00:54

Better legacy have you seen Jones jr lately its a no brainer Wlad wins this hands down

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 14 Dec 2015, 01:36

Roy Jones Jr.

ikorolev · Post by **ikorolev** » 14 Dec 2015, 01:42

What is a unit of legacy ?

davie · Post by **davie** » 14 Dec 2015, 01:49

Regardless of what Ring magazine might say, RJJ was the best fighter on the planet, bar none, from 1996-2004.
From Pernell Whitaker vacated the top slot, till Floyd Mayweather picked up the baton, RJJ was p4p number one according to anyone with eyes.
Regardless of his later fall from grace RJJ's Legacy was forever secured as one of the greatest fighters to lace up the gloves.

man · Post by **man** » 14 Dec 2015, 03:01

not even close: roy. he was pretty undisputed
p4p king for years and the only criticism you
can have on him is that he bypassed two or three
fights another fighter would have taken. but he
was never, not for a second, questioned for how
he fought.

wlad on the other hand was criticised - and very
rightly so - after pretty much every appearance
in the ring. and of course the divisions where roy
shined were in much better shape than the heavies
in the 2ooos.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 14 Dec 2015, 04:50

There are 13 people who need to gravely and ruefully give their head a shake.

Freedom2013 · Post by **Freedom2013** » 14 Dec 2015, 04:53

Riddick Blowe wrote:There are 13 people who need to gravely and ruefully give their head a shake.

No, YOU do.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 14 Dec 2015, 05:00

Freedom2013 wrote:
Riddick Blowe wrote:There are 13 people who need to gravely and ruefully give their head a shake.
No, YOU do.

I guess you are one of the souls who picked Wlad.

Batley18 · Post by **Batley18** » 14 Dec 2015, 05:03

Is this a serious thread? Some people put Roy Jones Jr in their top 10 of all time. Klitschko wouldn't be in the top 50 heavies of all time.

handsofstone · Post by **handsofstone** » 14 Dec 2015, 05:12

Wlad would KO Jones Jr so he must be better

Am i doing it right?

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 14 Dec 2015, 05:16

handsofstone wrote:Wlad would KO Jones Jr so he must be better

Am i doing it right?

at least 8 people on here think so!

PredatorHayds · Post by **PredatorHayds** » 14 Dec 2015, 10:08

RJJ was one of the best of his generation.

He was the best fighter on the planet for a good few years.

I'm a huge Wlad fan and if he retires without too many more blemishes would have him scraping in the TOP 10 post war heavy list.

But comparing his legacy to RJJ is delusional. Regardless of what RJJ does lately way past his best in his prime he was breathtaking, untouchable and one of a kind.

Leonid · Post by **Leonid** » 14 Dec 2015, 11:26

Wlad and RJJ both stand among top-ten concurrent fighters of the last decade who are p4p all-time material, so at least that makes their legacy comparison in no way laughable. While subjective opinions tend to exaggerate Roy's standing due to his eye-pleasing style and diminish Wlad for being boring, their actual acomplishments in the ring (ie. resume, that should be a basis to a legacy), brought to a common denominator, are quite similar. One way of evoiding the subjectivity in judgement is using boxrec computerised rankings that recalculate a whole resume into one number based on its quality relatively to the current division. I know, I know, its the worst ignorant BS you've ever seen. Not that bad in broad terms though. Their all-time top-10 p4p account for pretty much everone who should be there (maybe swap #10 Dick tiger to #14 Henry Armstrong and its almost consensus). Their top-250 account for pretty much everyone, generally considered to be top-100 worthy material. The current decade is represented by 9 fighters, that fit both bills : FMJ, Pac, BHop, JMM, Wlad, RJJ, Mosley, Tarver, Calzaghe. IMO this is statistically adequate - a little under 10% of this sport's history contribute a little less than 10% of the greats. Wlad and RJJ stand right next to each other in this list (Wlad at #33 and RJJ at #49 overall on boxrec). So please stop calling people delusional based on highly subjective perception of someone being "breathtaking and untouchable", in addition to the very concept of p4p being subjectve as well.

PredatorHayds · Post by **PredatorHayds** » 14 Dec 2015, 12:10

Leonid wrote:Wlad and RJJ both stand among top-ten concurrent fighters of the last decade who are p4p all-time material, so at least that makes their legacy comparison in no way laughable. While subjective opinions tend to exaggerate Roy's standing due to his eye-pleasing style and diminish Wlad for being boring, their actual acomplishments in the ring (ie. resume, that should be a basis to a legacy), brought to a common denominator, are quite similar. One way of evoiding the subjectivity in judgement is using boxrec computerised rankings that recalculate a whole resume into one number based on its quality relatively to the current division. I know, I know, its the worst ignorant BS you've ever seen. Not that bad in broad terms though. Their all-time top-10 p4p account for pretty much everone who should be there (maybe swap #10 Dick tiger to #14 Henry Armstrong and its almost consensus). Their top-250 account for pretty much everyone, generally considered to be top-100 worthy material. The current decade is represented by 9 fighters, that fit both bills : FMJ, Pac, BHop, JMM, Wlad, RJJ, Mosley, Tarver, Calzaghe. IMO this is statistically adequate - a little under 10% of this sport's history contribute a little less than 10% of the greats. Wlad and RJJ stand right next to each other in this list (Wlad at #33 and RJJ at #49 overall on boxrec). So please stop calling people delusional based on highly subjective perception of someone being "breathtaking and untouchable", in addition to the very concept of p4p being subjectve as well.

RJJ was the best pound for pound fighter on the planet for a part of his career and this was pretty much universally agreed.
I personally had Wlad P4P number one after FMJ retirement but I was in the minority with that one.
RJJ had the career defining fights Hopkins, Toney, Ruiz etc. Wlad was champion in a time where he didn't have a defining win due to the fact there wasn't anyone good enough to challenge him.
Based on this I have RJJ way above Wlad on my P4p list.
Out of curiosity how high do you rate Wlad as a post war heavy?
Also you can't use the boxrec rankings on a al-time list as one of the problems is it calculates higher points to higher weight category's.

As you mentioned these lists are subjective but RJJ was the best of his generation. Wlad wasn't and his style didn't exactly transcend the sport.

zorndeslammes · Post by **zorndeslammes** » 14 Dec 2015, 12:30

PredatorHayds wrote: RJJ was the best pound for pound fighter on the planet for a part of his career and this was pretty much universally agreed.

I think to what portion of that career he was seen as such is entirely within the realm of discussion. The Ring's rankings are not a final judge on the matter, however, they suggest (as I would) that Roy's #1 P4P status was in question for some time:

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... und--1990s
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... und--2000s

Between 1996-2003, Roy was between #1 and #3 for all of those years, topping the charts 3 times. This not not a poor accomplishment. It bears noting that Bernard Hopkins, often considered among the best domestic challengers available for Roy, rose to be right alongside of him. They did not fight a second time until well past what Roy Jones Jr. fans would consider his prime, of course, and that negatively affects Roy's status historically.

(That it was past Hopkins' prime is also well within a factual discussion, but not mentioned nearly as much in the context of that bout.)

RJJ had the career defining fights Hopkins, Toney, Ruiz etc. Wlad was champion in a time where he didn't have a defining win due to the fact there wasn't anyone good enough to challenge him.

A) I think anyone who has to cite John Ruiz as a career defining fight is perhaps not an all time great, comparable to the Sugar Ray Robinson's of the sport's history.

B) The Hopkins fight is what it is - a contest between two guys on the upswing before anyone could have known that *both* would be HOFers.

C) Within the context of comparing Klitschko to RJJ, the P4P rankings suggest going with Roy, but then again, they are P4P rankings and are intended to give guys who aren't heavyweights significantly more praise. That's the whole way they work. The way I look at it is that Wladimir has only one truly era defining fight he didn't have: Vitali Klitschko. Roy had several in his prime and lost many more after he was past his best.