Better Legacy: Wladimir Klitschko or Roy Jones, Jr.?

[PredatorHayds]

RJJ was the best pound for pound fighter on the planet for a part of his career and this was pretty much universally agreed.

I think to what portion of that career he was seen as such is entirely within the realm of discussion. The Ring's rankings are not a final judge on the matter, however, they suggest (as I would) that Roy's #1 P4P status was in question for some time:

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... und--1990s
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... und--2000s

Between 1996-2003, Roy was between #1 and #3 for all of those years, topping the charts 3 times. This not not a poor accomplishment. It bears noting that Bernard Hopkins, often considered among the best domestic challengers available for Roy, rose to be right alongside of him. They did not fight a second time until well past what Roy Jones Jr. fans would consider his prime, of course, and that negatively affects Roy's status historically.

(That it was past Hopkins' prime is also well within a factual discussion, but not mentioned nearly as much in the context of that bout.)

RJJ had the career defining fights Hopkins, Toney, Ruiz etc. Wlad was champion in a time where he didn't have a defining win due to the fact there wasn't anyone good enough to challenge him.

A) I think anyone who has to cite John Ruiz as a career defining fight is perhaps not an all time great, comparable to the Sugar Ray Robinson's of the sport's history.

B) The Hopkins fight is what it is - a contest between two guys on the upswing before anyone could have known that *both* would be HOFers.

C) Within the context of comparing Klitschko to RJJ, the P4P rankings suggest going with Roy, but then again, they are P4P rankings and are intended to give guys who aren't heavyweights significantly more praise. That's the whole way they work. The way I look at it is that Wladimir has only one truly era defining fight he didn't have: Vitali Klitschko. Roy had several in his prime and lost many more after he was past his best.

The Ruiz one would be included not for the level of opposition but more for the achievement of becoming heavyweight champion.

[Leonid]

Wlad and RJJ both stand among top-ten concurrent fighters of the last decade who are p4p all-time material, so at least that makes their legacy comparison in no way laughable. While subjective opinions tend to exaggerate Roy's standing due to his eye-pleasing style and diminish Wlad for being boring, their actual acomplishments in the ring (ie. resume, that should be a basis to a legacy), brought to a common denominator, are quite similar. One way of evoiding the subjectivity in judgement is using boxrec computerised rankings that recalculate a whole resume into one number based on its quality relatively to the current division. I know, I know, its the worst ignorant BS you've ever seen. Not that bad in broad terms though. Their all-time top-10 p4p account for pretty much everone who should be there (maybe swap #10 Dick tiger to #14 Henry Armstrong and its almost consensus). Their top-250 account for pretty much everyone, generally considered to be top-100 worthy material. The current decade is represented by 9 fighters, that fit both bills : FMJ, Pac, BHop, JMM, Wlad, RJJ, Mosley, Tarver, Calzaghe. IMO this is statistically adequate - a little under 10% of this sport's history contribute a little less than 10% of the greats. Wlad and RJJ stand right next to each other in this list (Wlad at #33 and RJJ at #49 overall on boxrec). So please stop calling people delusional based on highly subjective perception of someone being "breathtaking and untouchable", in addition to the very concept of p4p being subjectve as well.

RJJ was the best pound for pound fighter on the planet for a part of his career and this was pretty much universally agreed.
I personally had Wlad P4P number one after FMJ retirement but I was in the minority with that one.
RJJ had the career defining fights Hopkins, Toney, Ruiz etc. Wlad was champion in a time where he didn't have a defining win due to the fact there wasn't anyone good enough to challenge him.
Based on this I have RJJ way above Wlad on my P4p list.
Out of curiosity how high do you rate Wlad as a post war heavy?
Also you can't use the boxrec rankings on a al-time list as one of the problems is it calculates higher points to higher weight category's.

As you mentioned these lists are subjective but RJJ was the best of his generation. Wlad wasn't and his style didn't exactly transcend the sport.

First of all, being recognized as a current p4p number 1 at any point in time is in reality a much more challenging task for a HW, that did not compete in any other weight class, than it is for others as going through weights is perceived as a great advantage in such comparisons. Also this is because it is much easier to recognize skills in lower weights, sinse fighters are naturally faster, they can trade different kinds of punches in a fascinating way with lower risk of a knockout.

Guys like Haye and Povekin could be seen as key wins, if everyone's perception of the division was not so low (mainly because of the prejudice that "it can't be any good if its dominated by a big boring eastern-european").

I see Wlad as top-4 along with other dominant heavies in Ali, Holmes and Lewis. Holly just fell a little short vs bigger guys like Lewis and Bowe. Foreman was too slow and could only KO small guys, I mean still Great, but not as much as the top-4.

And no, historical boxrec rating is not the same as its current rating and it does not benefit higher weight classes in any way. If anything, it benefits those weight classes, where there is less fighters overall (easier to become #1), while HW is one of the most crowded divisions.

[zorndeslammes]

The Ruiz one would be included not for the level of opposition but more for the achievement of becoming heavyweight champion.

He wasn't the heavyweight champion though. Lennox Lewis was the heavyweight champion. He beat *a* heavyweight, one who, if Klitschko is considered to be poorly performing among post-war heavyweights, Ruiz must be a dumpster fire.

[IKSRTFO]

Jones beating Hopkins and Toney at the time he did is alone is better than anything Wlad has done his entire career.


Just ask yourself, who has beaten more Hall of Famers? As a matter of fact, Wlad hasn't even fought many Hall of Famers.

[lillywhite14]

Got to love it

What next? Johnny Nelson or Bernard Hopkins?

[Bard of Boxrec]

SVEN OTTKE OR ROBERTO DURAN?????

[Taki...]

It's RJJ by the proverbial country mile. If he'd retired after beating Ruiz I doubt Wlad would get a single vote.
It's harsh to base any judgement on terrible performances against mediocre opponents at least a decade after the gloves should've been hung up.

[dominik]

RJJ easily. Wlad has had a great career and probably is Close to a top 10 HW ever but RJJ is probably top10 ever P4P. there are even some who say he might be the GOAT, he was an absolute beast in his prime and beat tons of very good fighters (Hopkins, toney, virgill hill...). this is not even Close.