Roberto Durans legacy?

[raylawpc]

Leonard also beat Willie Ritchie, Lew Tendler, Johnny Dundee, Johnny Kilbane (the latter all-time great featherweights who had moved up to lightweight), Ever Hammer, Pinky Mitchell, and Joe Welling. All of these guys were comparable to the lightweights who fought Duran.

[elmersalsa]

I certainly don't dispute that Williams beat better competition than Duran; but so did several guys.

Besides Freddie Welsh, you want me to name another lightweight that Benny Leonard beat? OK, I will name Rocky Kansas. He was another lightweight.

Ambers beat a washed up Tony Canzoneri? He was just 27 when Ambers beat him the first time. And yes the win over Armstrong counts even though Armstrong got deducted some points. Ambers also beat Pedro Montanez.

Ortiz only got a daw vs Locche. Should have not counted that embarrassing performance. Sugar Ramos was damaged good when he fought Ortiz? The guy was 25 years old. He was in his prime. He lost to Saldivar. Saldviar was a great fighter.
Flash Elorde never won outside of his hometown? Umm, yes he did. For starters, he beat Laguna in Tokyo. He beat several other top 10 fighters outside of his hometown.

You didn't respond to Armstrong. I hope you agree that beating Ambers and Ross is a tad more impressive than beat Buchanan and DeJesus.

A few more guys who beat better competition than Duran at lightweight:

Joe Gans: Beat Frankie Erne, Dave Holly, Jack Blackburn, and Battling Nelson.

Bob Montgomery: beat Ike Williams, Beau Jack, Fritzie Zivc, Slugger White, Jenkins.

Sammy Angott: was 3-0 against Montgomery, also beat Jenkins.

Beau Jack- Beat Montomery, Angott, Zivic, Juan Zurita, and Bummy Davis.

No, I don't think Ken Buchanan and DeJesus were top 20 lightweights. You are propping them up to make Duran look good. They were good fighters; nothing special.
l

He he he...Sugar Ramos was in his prime when fought the great Carlos Ortiz? How could that be when the great Vicente Saldivar made bologna sandwiches out him. Saldivar beat him so bad for 12 grueling rounds that that was THE END for Ramos. Now Ramos a featherweight will beat a prime Ortiz? Where is the LOGIC?

Flash Elorde was a FAN FAVORITE IN JAPAN. OUTSIDE HIS SORROUNDINGS, HE WAS OVERRATED.

Henry Armstrong? Did not had better quality fighters at lightweight than the Hands of Stone. The fight with the great Barney Ross was at welterweight. For the welterweight crown.

Joe Gans??? Are you serious? None of his victories at lightweight were against a top lightweight all-time. THEY DO NOT MAKE THE TOP 20 IN MY BOOK.

Rocky Kansas??? He is not in Ken Buchanan's nor Esteban DeJesus' class. He only had more fights. That is all. So the great Benny Leonard and Carlos Ortiz DID NOT HAD BETTER QUALITY OF OPPONENTS THAN the Hands of Stone.

The great Tony Canzoneri had more than 150 fights when he fought Lou Ambers. He was already a ring veteran of at least 12 years in the ring. HE WAS WASHED UP. He even beat Ambers the firs time around.

Bob Montgomery, Sammy Angott and Beau Jack they all belong in the Ike Williams era.

So of all the lightweights, ONLY THE GREAT IKE WILLIAMS beat more quality and quantity of GREAT OPPONENTS than the great Roberto Duran.

Are you sure that those guys would have beaten Duran at his very best?

[elmersalsa]

It makes me laugh when some people want to DEGRADE the quality of opposition of the great Roberto Duran at lightweight like if he had not fight good quality opponents. So they were TOMATO CANS?

Duran beat the best lightweights of his era. He cleaned up the lightweight class. He was the top dog. Why should we hate on someone that was NEARLY PERFECT in his own weight class?

Some of the fighters that reign at lightweight fought guys that were coming from smaller weight classes like in the example of the great Carlos Ortiz fighting Sugar Ramos and Flash Elorde. The great "Explosive Thin Man", the great Alexis Arguello was the featherweight and jr lightweight champion of the world. Why he did not CHALLENGE the Hands of Stone? Was not Arguello way better than Ramos and Elorde?

Duran at lightweight beat some excellent fighters that they do not want to give credit for:
Ken Buchanan was Scotland, British, European and World lightweight champion. That is not good enough?

Esteban De Jesus was Puerto Rico, NABA and WBC world lightweight champion. He only had 2 LOSSES at lightweight, and that was against Duran. No shame on that. He beat Duran the first time around. Was not he good enough?

Ishimatsu Suzuki beat Rodolfo "El Gato" Gonzalez TWICE. He even beat Buchanan, and hang with Ismael Laguna for 13 rounds in Panama City, Panama. That is not good enough?

Ray Lampkin was an excellent lightweight that gave Duran a great scrap in Duran's hometown. He was the USBA lightweight champion. That is not good enough?

Hector Thompson was Australia lightweight champion. That is not good enough?

What Duran had to do then? fight King Kong or Superman? I mean, IT IS WHAT IS. DAMN IF YOU DO, DAMN IF YOU DON'T.

Now, NOBODY AT LIGHTWEIGHT could beat him, he RAN OUT OF CHALLENGERS, he cleaned up the division, Arguello do not want to move up for a mega fight, and Duran moves to welterweight and whupped the great Sugar Ray Leonard. Now what? OOOOHHH, Leonard DID NOT FIGHT HIS FIGHT?

The more I hear those comments, the more I laugh. DAMN IF YOU DO, DAMN IF YOU DON'T

[Ambling Alp II]

elmer, you are saying so many stupid things I don't even know where to start.

I guess I will start with you laughing at Benny Leonard beating Rocky Kansas. Rocky Kansas was a very good fighter. He beat Lew Tendler and Johnny Dundee. As raylawpc mentioned, Leonard beat both Tendler and Dundee as well, and as I had mentioned Freddie Welsh.

Tony Canzoneri was washed up when he Ambers beat him? Just because he had a lot of fights doesn't mean he was washed up. Canzoneri beat Jimmy McLarnin in his previous fight, just 4 months before Ambers beat Canzoneri.

Montgomery, Angott, and Mandell all belong in the Ike Williams era? Yes they do. so you just dismiss as not having beat better competition than Duran? That is just stupid. They all beat great fighters, much better than Buchanan and DeJesus.

Armstrongs win over Ross doesn't count as a win at lightweight becasue it was for the welterweight title? Armstrong was really still a lightweight when he beat Ross. He only weighed 133 pounds.

Ortiz's win ovedr Elorde doesn't count becasue Elorde's big wins were all in the Phillipines and Japan and that somehow makes him overrated? WTF?
Using that logic, since Ike Williams foguht in Philiadelphia a lot, we can't count any of his big wins in Phuladlephia. This would include wins over Mandell, Montgomery, and one against Jack.

Just because you aren't familiar with Gans' competition doesn't mean they were good. Dave Holly and Jack Blackburn were very good fighters, as was Frankie Erne. Battling Nelson was a great fighter; certainly better than Buchanan and DeJesus.

Duran beat Hector Thompson, the Australian champ as point out. Being the Australian champ doesn't necessary mean that a fighter is any good at all. Thompson lost fights to complete tomato cans. Absolute nothing win for Duran.
Duran's win over Ray Lampkin was over an "excellent" lightweight? Really? Why? Lampkin beat absolutely nobody worth mentioning. Nobody. Absolute nothing win for Duran.

To make it simple, you are not using logic at all. You are just back to your over the top hero worship of Duran.

[elmersalsa]

I got to laugh again. You Alp want to DEGRADE Duran's standing as a lightweight. No LIGHTWEIGHT IN HISTORY, in a 3 fight series, beats the Hands of Stone. That is how good that guy was. Put him in any lightweight era, and Duran comes up on top. What lightweight can match his ferocity, skill, and durability than this fighting machine? Tell me who, sir?

You want to put it like if Duran fought TOMATO CANS at lightweight or something. You probably do not know nothing about boxing, or boxing skill.

The only LIGHTWEIGHT that I can say, AND I SAY IT AGAIN, that fought and beat better fighters than Duran was the great Ike Williams. THAT'S IT...END OF STORY. I even put Williams quality of opposition on a A+ level and Duran's on a B+ level. But the other lightweight fighters? Had better opposition than Duran? Nope. NO SIR. The level is not far off for the rest of them.

Duran NEVER FOUGHT a featherweight coming up to challenge his crown. Why is that? Ain't the great Alexis Arguello one of the greatest featherweights? Why he did not challenge Duran?

Duran NEVER FOUGHT SOMEONE smaller than he was, that was washed up or over the hill. All his victims at lightweight were at his proper prime. Give him credit for that. NOBODY WANT IT TO FIGHT HIM.

Now people throw in the great Johnny Dundee, a featherweight, that he fought the great Benny Leonard. So Dundee, Lew Tendler and Freddie Welsh were better than Ken Buchanan and Esteban De Jesus?...That makes them better? On what?
They throw in Sugar Ramos, another featherweight to fight the great Carlos Ortiz. Ramos was ALREADY DAMAGED GOODS after the great Vicente Saldivar wasted him. And he wasted him BADLY.
Flash Elorde was so OVERRATED that he could not win outside his hometown or FIT SURROUNDINGS. Once he travelled to fight Ortiz and Ortiz made him look like a real jr. lightweight where he belonged..

I throw in Ray Lampkin and he is not good enough? He gave Duran a great scrap in Panama.
What Lampkin had to do? beat King Kong, too?

Vilomar Fernandez beat the great Explosive Thin Man Arguello in Arguello's prime. That is not good enough? What Vilomar had to do? fight Godzilla?

Ken Buchanan was champion in all levels of competition....That is not good enough for you?

Esteban De Jesus was champion in all levels of competition...That is not good enough for you?

Ishimatsu Suzuki was champion of all levels of competition...That is not good enough?

Hector Thompson gave Duran one of his toughest fights. Was Australian lightweight champion...That is not good enough? So it would make it better if Thompson was American lightweight champion? Did you see his fight with Duran? Was Thompson not good enough?

I am familiar with the great Joe Gans competition...And they also were not far out than Duran's competition in his heyday. All they had were more fights because in those days you had to fight a lot. That was the norm in those days.

Being good does not mean that you gotta beat someone great. Only look at his skill. Thompson, Fernandez, Suzuki, Buchanan, DeJesus and co were EXCELLENT FIGHTERS. They may not be p4p all time greats, but were VERY GOOD and the videos of those fights show it.

[elmersalsa]

I would like to ask the people in this forum if Duran's challengers were TOMATO CANS. Duran standing as the best lightweight ever is recognized by almost every boxing purist. They might see something that Alp does not see.

[Ambling Alp II]

Stop putting words in my mouth. read what I am actually saying. Use logic.

Never said Duran's title defenses were against tomato cans. I have just said that were several other lightweights who have beat better competition. doesn't mean that I think Duran would have lost to all of these guys; that is a different topic.

What does Ray Lampkin have to do, "beat King Kong"? how about someone good. As I mentioned earlier, The guy beat absolutely nobody worth mentioning.
Hector Thompson doesn't have that impressive of a resume either. You mentioned that he was the Australian champ, big friggin deal.

Dundee was not just a featherweight. He won the Jr lightweight title as well. He fought dozens of fights vs lightweights. He would have been the lightweight champ in many other eras.
Why do I think Dundee, Tendler, Welsh etc. were better than Buchanan and DeJesus? Seriously? How many boxing purists would argue against that?

Yes I have seen Buchanan, DeJesus was on TV a lot. They were good fighters. They sure as heck were not great fighters. They were a far cry from Dundee, Welsh, Tendler. Those guys have many fights against other great fighters and often won.

Compare Buchanan's resume to them. Buchanan's best wins were close wins over Laguna. Then what, an ancient Ortiz? Jim Watt? big friggin deal.
Take away DeJesus win over Duran and after that you have what? Ray Lampkin?

To compare these guys to Tendler, Welsh, Dundee etc. is an absolute joke.

[elmersalsa]

This is vanity and vexation of spirit...I would let you have the last word. Years ago you mentioned Duran as the greatest lightweight. Now? you want to question his legacy at lightweight?

The great Johnny Dundee MADE HIS CAREER of featherweights and jr. lightweights. He was twice jr. lightweight champ. Why the great Alexis Arguello did not move up? Was not he better than Dundee or Sugar Ramos or Flash Elorde?

Being champion of Australia made not be a big deal to you? Seriously? So what you are saying? That is no merit? Did you see Hector Thompson fighting Duran in Panama City? Did you see how he gave Duran trouble? He almost stop the Hands of Stone. That he did not had any significant win over a great fighter does not mean he was not a good fighter. He PROVED TO BE GOOD ENOUGH by winning the Australian lightweight crown and also gave Duran all he could handle. It was one of Duran's TOUGHEST FIGHTS.

Dundee was not a lightweight. He could not be a better lightweight than Ken Buchanan and Esteban Dejesus. He was not a lightweight ATG. He is a featherweight and jr. lightweight ATG.
Lew Tendler COULD NEVER be ranked above Ken Buchanan and Esteban De Jesus at lightweight. NO SIR.
Freddie Welsh was the only one of the great Benny Leonard bunch of victims that is worth mentioning above Buchanan and De Jesus. And still, Buchanan and De Jesus make a run of his money.

You just go by quality of opposition at the weight class. How about the achievements? Buchanan and De Jesus achieved a lot at lightweight. They were champions at the pro level at all levels of competition: country, continental and world championships. THAT IS GOOD. THAT IS EXCELLENT. THAT IS IMPRESSIVE. To me, they belong in the top 20 greatest lightweights and with GOOD MERIT. If they do not belong in the top 20, to you, I cannot change your way of thinking. That is the same thinking that you got your boy the great Sugar Ray Leonard above Duran in the ATG rankings. Which is VERY ODD TO SEE. GOOD BYE. ADIOS.

[Ambling Alp II]

I have always said that Duran is arguably the best lightweight ever. It's between him, Gans, Leonard, and Armstrong. There are a few other guys not that far off. I have just been saying that there have been many others that have beaten better competition. Some of the others have a lot of losses as well which hurts there case.

If you would actually take the time to read what I am actually saying you would see this.

No I don't think winning a national title by itself means much when ranking great fighters. If you had to beat someone really good to do that, then it's a big deal. The champion of one nation might not be as good as the #20 fighter from another nation.

Dundee won dozens of fights vs lightweights throughout his career.

I don't rate Buchanan and DeJesus that high because many other beat much better competition in their careers. Tendler, Welsh, Dundee, Benny Leonard, Gans, Ross, Whitaker, McFarland, Ambers, Williams, Ortiz, Brown, Angott, Mandell, Canzoneri, Jack, Montgomery, Arguello, Wolgast, Nelson, Erne, Lavigne, Petrolle, were all much better than Buchanan and DeJesus and several others were roughly even.

When rating fighters, of course you have to look at film (though you can't hold it against old timers if little or none is available). Duran was usually very impressive. Buchanan and DeJesus less so. The other criteria that I always look at is head to head if applicable, common opponents if applicable, quality wins, and a hard look at the losses (taking into consideration, the amount of losses, how close they were, and quality of the opponent)
I use this criteria over and over regardless who I am rating, whether it's flyweight or heavyweights. Sometimes it makes me rate guys I like higher than those I don't, sometimes it doesn't.
I don't randomly count wins over someone just because they have a national title, and I don't care if they won 100 fights by Ko over tomato cans.

Thanks for letting me have the last word.

[elmersalsa]

The great Roberto Duran's highlights:

World champion in 4 different weight classes: World Lightweight, WBC World Welterweight, WBA World Jr. Middleweight, and WBC World Middleweight champion.

Made 12 successful world title defenses. Eleven of them by knockout. Ten of those defenses were in a row, by knockout.

Held the lightweight crown for almost 7 years and CLEANED UP THE CLASS.

ONLY MAN IN HISTORY TO WHUPPED THE GREAT SUGAR RAY LEONARD IN HIS PRIME.

ONLY LIGHTWEIGHT KING TO WIN A PIECE OF THE MIDDLEWEIGHT CROWN.

Fought in 4 different decades. That ties it with the great Jack Johnson and Saoul Mamby.

Only fighter in history to have KOs in every round, with the exception of the 9th round.

One of the Ring Magazine's top 100 greatest punchers of all time listed at #28.

The best lightweight ever

Placed at #5 by the Ring Magazine list of the Best 80 Fighters of the Last 80 Years: 1922-2002

Beat a total of 12 world champions.

Trivia: Do you know that when he won his 4 world crowns, THE HANDS OF STONE WAS NEVER THE FAVORITE IN THE ODDS MAKERS?

Defining Fight: W15 Sugar Ray Leonard....June 20, 1980...."Took the crown from boxing's Golden Boy"

Other Defining Fights: WTKO13 Ken Buchanan, WKO11 Esteban De Jesus (II), W10 Carlos Palomino, LTKO8 Sugar Ray Leonard, WTKO8 Davey Moore and W12 Iran Barkley

[Ambling Alp II]

elmer, on December 27, you said "This is vanity and vexation of spirit...I would let you have the last word."

Now you are back with this. elmer, you lied.

[elmersalsa]

No, I did not lie Alp. I told the truth about letting you have the last word about the quality of opponents of the great Roberto Duran at lightweight. That was the DEBATE. Now, I am just giving the highlights of this great champion. Remember, we are not talking about Duran's legacy at lightweight alone. He fought in other weight classes. Where do you rate him at p4p all time? Now this is another subject. I am curious where you have him.

[Borinken25]

Duran is elmer sacred deity, you cannot have an objective conversation with him when it comes to Duran.

I give Duran two credible wins at lightweight, Buchanan and De Jesus. After that the wins are less credible. He beat a bunch of ok fighters but nothing especial. De Jesus was decent but not great and Buchanan is great but in the lower end. He got a decent win against Marcel but he was green at the time. Marcel became a better fighter after that.

To me Carlos Ortiz did face way better competition than Duran at lightweight. His draw vs Locche everybody knows he won that fight and he was also robbed vs Loi.

However, in Elmer’s world Duran is the one and only at lightweight. Nobody face better competition and nobody deserves to be ranked above him. I personally rank him at number 4 lightweight.

Just wait for it..

[elmersalsa]

Duran is elmer sacred deity, you cannot have an objective conversation with him when it comes to Duran.

I give Duran two credible wins at lightweight, Buchanan and De Jesus. After that the wins are less credible. He beat a bunch of ok fighters but nothing especial. De Jesus was decent but not great and Buchanan is great but in the lower end. He got a decent win against Marcel but he was green at the time. Marcel became a better fighter after that.

To me Carlos Ortiz did face way better competition than Duran at lightweight. His draw vs Locche everybody knows he won that fight and he was also robbed vs Loi.

However, in Elmer’s world Duran is the one and only at lightweight. Nobody face better competition and nobody deserves to be ranked above him. I personally rank him at number 4 lightweight.

Just wait for it..

Like the Book of Proverbs say "Forsake the foolish and live". Or better this: "Do not answer a fool according to his folly".
This guy Borinken came TOO LATE for the debate.

[BRITIANO187]

I think the two greatest Lightweights ever where Roberto Duran and Aaron Pryor..... Period

[Vladimir5555]

Pryor was a light welterweight.

[elmersalsa]

When was the legend or legacy of the great Roberto Duran started in your view?

1. When he beat Ken Buchanan or
2. When he beat Sugar Ray Leonard

If Duran never jumped to welterweight and got stucked at lightweight, and retires after the 3rd Esteban Dejesus fight, where would you rank him in the ATGs? Top 10? top 20? top 25? top 50? Somewhere in the top 100?

What if he would have died or retired after the Leonard I fight? Where would you rank him all time p4p?

What if he would have retired after the "No Mas" fight for good? Where would he be ranked all time in your view? top 10? top 20? or top 50? Or not ranked at all?

[NYDominican]

Borinken25 and elmersalsa. ---------------



Clearly, Roberto Duran had a long professional boxing career. Battle tested, with many titles and title defenses.


Robertos losses to Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns, Robbie Sims, Kirkland Laing, Omar Gonzalez, William Joppy, Jorge Fernando Castro, Vinny Pazienza, and Pat Lawlor. --------------

Do you think that this knocks down Roberto Durans all time top ranking? Primarily as it pertains to boxings Pound for Pound category?



If you think so, please explain.




If you don't think that it will, please expound upon it.

[Ezzard]

Everyone has their own way of ranking fighters...things that mean something to them...

There is no golden formula. The whole thing is totally subjective.

For me I regard boxing is better off for having great fights. So penalising fighters for defeats isn't something I factor in too much.

I'd rather a fighter lose a series 1-2 than never have fought them.

Duran lost the series to Leonard 1-2 but in my opinion that's far, far better than them being 0-0.

It's also very difficult to rate fighters from different eras if you look at defeats. Olympic champions and major prospects have money poured into supporting their careers in a way that old time fighters didn't.

Consistency is a factor. But a win-loss record can also be deceiving.

Getting back to Duran. The Dejesus defeat and the second Leonard fight (the manner of it) are clearly things to consider. During the 1980s he was undedicated and lost to naturally bigger fighters who on his best night he would have beaten. How much it matters is up to you.

The Duran-Leonard rivalry was so fierce back in the day that most people's views on both fighters are coloured by it.

So much of where you rate Duran comes down to how high you rate Ray Leonard. In my lifetime Leonard had a combination of intelligence and athleticism in the ring that I have never seen matched. He was poetry in motion. A magnificent boxer. He really had it all. For Duran to have beaten him is amazing. And with Duran's best weight being 135 it adds to the feat.

In a 15 round fight I would back Ray Leonard to have beaten any welterweight from the past 40 years. Mayweather, Trinidad, Hearns, Curry, DLH... Could he have done to Hopkins what he did to Hagler? I'd say yes...

[elmersalsa]

Duran was more talented than any boxer he ever fought. This is why he could compete way above his natural weight or out of shape, and even both together.

The best ive ever seen.

Even the man who knocked Duran out said Duran was the best he ever stepped in the ring with.( Hearns obviously)

Hagler said he earned his PhD in boxing after Duran.

The man had serious, serious all round skills.

You surely know about boxing
Some people believe in here like holding around the neck and running all around the ring limrthe great Muhammad Ali is boxing.

But, can you make an opponent miss at close range, at toe to toe exchanges and keep a fighter off balanced like the great Roberto Duran did at his very best, was incredible. To me, the best fighter of the last 50 years. He is the best that I have seen in my lifetime.

[campfire]

Stop putting words in my mouth. read what I am actually saying. Use logic.

Never said Duran's title defenses were against tomato cans. I have just said that were several other lightweights who have beat better competition. doesn't mean that I think Duran would have lost to all of these guys; that is a different topic.

What does Ray Lampkin have to do, "beat King Kong"? how about someone good. As I mentioned earlier, The guy beat absolutely nobody worth mentioning.
Hector Thompson doesn't have that impressive of a resume either. You mentioned that he was the Australian champ, big friggin deal.

Dundee was not just a featherweight. He won the Jr lightweight title as well. He fought dozens of fights vs lightweights. He would have been the lightweight champ in many other eras.
Why do I think Dundee, Tendler, Welsh etc. were better than Buchanan and DeJesus? Seriously? How many boxing purists would argue against that?

Yes I have seen Buchanan, DeJesus was on TV a lot. They were good fighters. They sure as heck were not great fighters. They were a far cry from Dundee, Welsh, Tendler. Those guys have many fights against other great fighters and often won.

Compare Buchanan's resume to them. Buchanan's best wins were close wins over Laguna. Then what, an ancient Ortiz? Jim Watt? big friggin deal.
Take away DeJesus win over Duran and after that you have what? Ray Lampkin?

To compare these guys to Tendler, Welsh, Dundee etc. is an absolute joke.

HECTOR THOMPSON IS A MUCH BETTER FIGHTER THEN YOU ARE GIVING HIM CREDIT FOR HE LEARNT TO FIGHT ON THE JOB 2 MEN TRAGICLY LOST THEIR LIFE AFTER FIGHTING THOMPSON ONE OF THE TRAGIDIE'S HAPPENED BEFORE THE DURAN FIGHT IT AFFECTED THOMPSON IN AWAY EITHER YOU OR ME COULD EVER IMAGINE...............YOU SHOULD GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT BEFORE BAGGING A FIGHTER SENSIBLE