what are ur top 15 middleweights of all time

[surf-bat]

Some writeups of LaMotta-Cerdan for comparison sakes:

According to the AP writeup, LaMotta had a puffed up left hand. Cerdan had a pulled shoulder muscle. The writeup says that Cerdan injured his shoulder in the opening round of the fight and was able to use his left hand effectively only once or twice the rest of the fight. It says he took a body beating until the bout was halted after the bell in the 9th round.

According to the Middletown Times Herald (a NY paper), "Cerdan rallied magnificently from a first round battering and fought on even terms until the seventh. He gashed LaMotta's right brow in the second round and had Jake's left ear badly swollen at the finish. Cerdan also won the fifth round, and fought evenly during terrific toe-to-toe slugging in the 3rd and 6th. However, Marcel began to wilt near the end of the sixth under Jake's pounding left jab and persistent hooks to body and head. Marcel, always an aggressive scrapper, began to backpedal and side-step in the seventh. During that session Marcel was staggered three times by rights to the chin. Marcel continued to suffer a battering in the eighth and ninth."
The fight was then stopped after the ninth when the doctor looked at the shoulder and thought it was fractured. The bell rang and LaMotta was declared the winner when Cerdan did not come out. Cerdan claimed that the shoulder was injured when he threw his first left hook in the first round, and was aggravated when LaMotta shoved him to the canvas.

Here's some more as well(LA TIMES): "The swarthy little French-Moroccan was a one-armed man after he suffered a shoulder injury in the first round."

"Cerdan did not use his left hand after the shoulder injury except for defensive purposes."

"Cerdan was no match for an aroused LaMotta, who hammered him almost at will. Only sheer courage kept the gallant Casablancan on his feet through the last five rounds of savage, TWO-FISTED[emphasis mine] beating."

"When Cerdan did try to throw one left-handed punch in the 4th round the pain was so intense that he never tried again. Referee Webber said he heard "something snap."

"According to Dr. Vincent Nardiello of the NY State Athletic Commission, Cerdan suffered a "tear of the supraspinatous muscle of the left shoulder."

[surf-bat]

Some writeups of LaMotta-Cerdan for comparison sakes:

According to the AP writeup, LaMotta had a puffed up left hand. Cerdan had a pulled shoulder muscle. The writeup says that Cerdan injured his shoulder in the opening round of the fight and was able to use his left hand effectively only once or twice the rest of the fight. It says he took a body beating until the bout was halted after the bell in the 9th round.

According to the Middletown Times Herald (a NY paper), "Cerdan rallied magnificently from a first round battering and fought on even terms until the seventh. He gashed LaMotta's right brow in the second round and had Jake's left ear badly swollen at the finish. Cerdan also won the fifth round, and fought evenly during terrific toe-to-toe slugging in the 3rd and 6th. However, Marcel began to wilt near the end of the sixth under Jake's pounding left jab and persistent hooks to body and head. Marcel, always an aggressive scrapper, began to backpedal and side-step in the seventh. During that session Marcel was staggered three times by rights to the chin. Marcel continued to suffer a battering in the eighth and ninth."
The fight was then stopped after the ninth when the doctor looked at the shoulder and thought it was fractured. The bell rang and LaMotta was declared the winner when Cerdan did not come out. Cerdan claimed that the shoulder was injured when he threw his first left hook in the first round, and was aggravated when LaMotta shoved him to the canvas.

Here's some more as well(LA TIMES): "The swarthy little French-Moroccan was a one-armed man after he suffered a shoulder injury in the first round."

"Cerdan did not use his left hand after the shoulder injury except for defensive purposes."

"Cerdan was no match for an aroused LaMotta, who hammered him almost at will. Only sheer courage kept the gallant Casablancan on his feet through the last five rounds of savage, TWO-FISTED[emphasis mine] beating."

"When Cerdan did try to throw one left-handed punch in the 4th round the pain was so intense that he never tried again. Referee Webber said he heard "something snap."

"According to Dr. Vincent Nardiello of the NY State Athletic Commission, Cerdan suffered a "tear of the supraspinatous muscle of the left shoulder."

Here's a bit more:

"Jake never stopped throwing. For a time Cerdan tried to match him in this wild slugging match but he couldn't do it- especially with one hand."

"Time after time LaMotta RIPPED LEFT HOOKS TO HIS HEAD AND DUG LEFTS TO HIS BODY[again, emphasis mine]"

So much for Jake having an unusable left hand, huh? I think this report and DNAHAR's report should officially close the book on Jake "beating" Cerdan.

[klompton]

What closes the book on Jake beating Cerdan is the fact that he has a KO win over Cerdan and nothing a bunch of eurocentric fans with rose colored glasses say will change that fact. Cerdan never faced anyone even remotely as good as LaMotta was in that fight. On the other hand LaMotta faced several men as good as Cerdan or better and either won or gave them hell.

How come none of these guys ever mentions Cerdan beating a completely shot or winning gift decisions against Georgie Abrams or Anton Raadick (who LaMotta beat easily). They would rather sweep those under the rug when thinking of how great their champ supposedly was all the while touting the records of euro trash that never went anywhere except on Cerdans record.

[surf-bat]

What closes the book on Jake beating Cerdan is the fact that he has a KO win over Cerdan and nothing a bunch of eurocentric fans with rose colored glasses say will change that fact. Cerdan never faced anyone even remotely as good as LaMotta was in that fight. On the other hand LaMotta faced several men as good as Cerdan or better and either won or gave them hell.

How come none of these guys ever mentions Cerdan beating a completely shot or winning gift decisions against Georgie Abrams or Anton Raadick (who LaMotta beat easily). They would rather sweep those under the rug when thinking of how great their champ supposedly was all the while touting the records of euro trash that never went anywhere except on Cerdans record.

More fiction served-up hot from a die-hard LaMotta fan. Did those newspaper quotes from DNA and myself rattle your long-cherished LaMotta beliefs?

You have swallowed whole every piece of baloney ever written about Marcel, most of which was written by jingoist American writers who were just itching to discredit him and his amazing record when he came over here. Every time an opponent landed a telling punch against Cerdan it was "SEE??!! Told ya he waddn't shit!"

You wouldn't by any chance be a New Yorker, would you?

First myth: He received a gift over Abrams. No friend, in fact he beat Georgie handily. Georgie was(and still is) considered one of the best middleweight contenders ever(ask Ray Robinson). The fight was in Abrams backyard and the crowd was stridently for him. He bothered Marcel with his jab and was fairly competitive. But, as with LaMotta, you rarely get an unbiased account of a New York fight by New York papers involving a New York fighter(I don't remember if Georgie was from NY or not, but they sure as hell did adopt him as one of their own). Since Georgie finished on his feet and was fighting until the end somehow the NY crowd felt that he should get the decision, so they boo'd.

Marcel Cerdan got a decision win in NY over a New Yorker. That should tell you all you need to know. If Georgie was close they would have given him the gift. He wasn't. Marcel was the effective aggressor the whole way and deserved the decision. Read the unbiased newspaper accounts.

Myth 2: He got a gift over Raadik. Again, you have swallowed another myth, this one of your own making(I have never hear ANYONE say that this was a gift decision). Marcel was beating Raadik from ringpost to ringpost for the entire fight. Tough Anton hung in there but he was sorely outclassed.

Before the fight it was reported that Cerdan was sick but he went forward with the fight anyway. That didn't become apparent until the last round, when he came out of his corner looking tired and weary. He hadn't sustained any severe punishment in the fight and people were puzzled by this. Sometime in the round Raadik threw a relatively average punch and Marcel went down(even Raadik was surprised). Sensing an opportunity, Anton pounced on Marcel and two more "knockdowns"(the papers report them being more from shoves that Cerdan was just too woozy to resist than clean punches) were recorded.

Once again Marcel got the deserved decision, but was booe'd for once again failing to live up to the hype the papers made him shoulder when arriving here. Never mind that he'd beaten two of the top men around handily. It was the flaws that everyone focused on.

Let's not forget that Cerdan beat Georgie Abrams and Holman Williams(both considered two of the best to never win a title), Anton Raadik, Lavern Roach and Harold Green(who beat Rocky Graziano twice).

I also give him a measure of credit for beating Tony Zale. True, Zale was past his prime, but look at the films of that bout. Tony is digging to the body and head as furiously as in his glory days and he's absorbing shots that would KO a younger fighter. He was "on" that night in a big way. But that's another debate....

[surf-bat]

What closes the book on Jake beating Cerdan is the fact that he has a KO win over Cerdan and nothing a bunch of eurocentric fans with rose colored glasses say will change that fact. Cerdan never faced anyone even remotely as good as LaMotta was in that fight. On the other hand LaMotta faced several men as good as Cerdan or better and either won or gave them hell.

How come none of these guys ever mentions Cerdan beating a completely shot or winning gift decisions against Georgie Abrams or Anton Raadick (who LaMotta beat easily). They would rather sweep those under the rug when thinking of how great their champ supposedly was all the while touting the records of euro trash that never went anywhere except on Cerdans record.

And the most telling fact is that we now have irrefutable evidence that a one-armed Marcel Cerdan went over 9 rounds with the mighty LaMotta. That speaks volumes. A LaMotta booster's worst nightmare is laid bare.

Cerdan on that night wouldn't have gone 5 rounds with Marvin Hagler or Carlos Monzon. Not with one arm.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

cerdan even before getting injured was badly hurt by lamotta. cerdan simply got his ass kicked for 10 rounds by lamotta who also had a injured hand. cerdaan was hurting more than lamotta, but lamotta didnt have much use of his left hand either.


i think a prime holman williams beats cerdan and i think lamotta beats cerdan in the rematch

[surf-bat]

cerdan even before getting injured was badly hurt by lamotta. cerdan simply got his ass kicked for 10 rounds by lamotta who also had a injured hand. cerdaan was hurting more than lamotta, but lamotta didnt have much use of his left hand either.


i think a prime holman williams beats cerdan and i think lamotta beats cerdan in the rematch

You skillfully circumvent every fact I've laid out. Is being allergic to the facts a prerequisite for being a LaMotta fan? Or can LaMotta fans simply not be bothered with the facts because they have a feeling?

Once again- The unbiased newspaper accounts do not support your claims. Not a single one of them.

[surf-bat]

What closes the book on Jake beating Cerdan is the fact that he has a KO win over Cerdan and nothing a bunch of eurocentric fans with rose colored glasses say will change that fact. Cerdan never faced anyone even remotely as good as LaMotta was in that fight. On the other hand LaMotta faced several men as good as Cerdan or better and either won or gave them hell.

How come none of these guys ever mentions Cerdan beating a completely shot or winning gift decisions against Georgie Abrams or Anton Raadick (who LaMotta beat easily). They would rather sweep those under the rug when thinking of how great their champ supposedly was all the while touting the records of euro trash that never went anywhere except on Cerdans record.

One more thing to think about: Marcel Cerdan was installed as a favorite(8-5 I believe) over Jake LaMotta. This was after his two supposed "controversial" victorys over Raadik and Abrams. Why then would Cerdan be made a favorite over the ferocious killer Jake LaMotta?

Either you're wrong about Cerdan being a figment of the imaginations of "eurocentric fans" or about LaMotta being the dominant scourge of the middleweight division. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

cerdan even before getting injured was badly hurt by lamotta. cerdan simply got his ass kicked for 10 rounds by lamotta who also had a injured hand. cerdaan was hurting more than lamotta, but lamotta didnt have much use of his left hand either.


i think a prime holman williams beats cerdan and i think lamotta beats cerdan in the rematch

You skillfully circumvent every fact I've laid out. Is being allergic to the facts a prerequisite for being a LaMotta fan? Or can LaMotta fans simply not be bothered with the facts because they have a feeling?

Once again- The unbiased newspaper accounts do not support your claims. Not a single one of them.

so are u implying lamotta did not hurt his hand?

[surf-bat]

cerdan even before getting injured was badly hurt by lamotta. cerdan simply got his ass kicked for 10 rounds by lamotta who also had a injured hand. cerdaan was hurting more than lamotta, but lamotta didnt have much use of his left hand either.


i think a prime holman williams beats cerdan and i think lamotta beats cerdan in the rematch

You skillfully circumvent every fact I've laid out. Is being allergic to the facts a prerequisite for being a LaMotta fan? Or can LaMotta fans simply not be bothered with the facts because they have a feeling?

Once again- The unbiased newspaper accounts do not support your claims. Not a single one of them.

so are u implying lamotta did not hurt his hand?

perhaps late in the fight. It does mention in the LA Times account that Jake's middle finger was swollen after the bout, but that it must have happened late in the fight as it did not become a factor. According to all acounts Jake used both hands equally well, whereas Cerdan could only use one.

Yet he still goes 9 rounds.....

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

You skillfully circumvent every fact I've laid out. Is being allergic to the facts a prerequisite for being a LaMotta fan? Or can LaMotta fans simply not be bothered with the facts because they have a feeling?

Once again- The unbiased newspaper accounts do not support your claims. Not a single one of them.

so are u implying lamotta did not hurt his hand?

perhaps late in the fight. It does mention in the LA Times account that Jake's middle finger was swollen after the bout, but that it must have happened late in the fight as it did not become a factor. According to all acounts Jake used both hands equally well, whereas Cerdan could only use one.

Yet he still goes 9 rounds.....

its hard to knock a man out early when he is in survival mode plus he has a good chin. still lamotta dominated the fight. dont forget lamotta had cerdan hurt badly before the ijnury


- i might add cerdans injury was partially due to lamottas strength. i think jake was too strong for marcel.

[klompton]

Cerdan was instilled as a favorite because it was felt that LaMotta was shot when he finally got his title shot. One of the men I interviewed who was ringside for the fight said that everyone thought LaMotta would come into the ring looking horrible. Instead when he took off his robe he looked statuesque and the crowd let out a low roar of approval. Read the reports from Chicago of the Raadick fight and you will see that not only was Cerdan not beating him pillar to post but he got dropped and battered late in the fight. Nice try, nice "facts".

[surf-bat]

so are u implying lamotta did not hurt his hand?

perhaps late in the fight. It does mention in the LA Times account that Jake's middle finger was swollen after the bout, but that it must have happened late in the fight as it did not become a factor. According to all acounts Jake used both hands equally well, whereas Cerdan could only use one.

Yet he still goes 9 rounds.....

dont forget lamotta had cerdan hurt badly before the ijnury
No, he didn't.


- i might add cerdans injury was partially due to lamottas strength. i think jake was too strong for marcel.

No, it was due to a throw. Too strong for Marcel?? He wasn't even too strong for a welterweight like Fritzie Zivic.

[surf-bat]

Cerdan was instilled as a favorite because it was felt that LaMotta was shot when he finally got his title shot. One of the men I interviewed who was ringside for the fight said that everyone thought LaMotta would come into the ring looking horrible. Instead when he took off his robe he looked statuesque and the crowd let out a low roar of approval. Read the reports from Chicago of the Raadick fight and you will see that not only was Cerdan not beating him pillar to post but he got dropped and battered late in the fight. Nice try, nice "facts".

I've read many reports of the fight from several sources. You're wrong. Period.

You've just been hit by an avalanche of irrefutable evidence by DNA and myself and this is the best you can come back with?

Boy, LaMotta fans will hold onto anything, no matter how flimsy

[Boxscribe]

Maybe the fact that he gave "two all-time great champions" a good fight is more an indication of the abilities of LaMotta and Cerdan - at least in comparison to Holman Williams.

I don't think anyone who knows about Williams, Cerdan and LaMotta would buy that last statement.

Yes, the tail-end, but still a quality fighter. He'd just beaten a top LH in Bob Satterfield. 9 months earlier he'd beaten and lost to Archie Moore. And a year earlier beaten Bert Lytell, Charley Burley and Cocoa Kid. Not the signs of a totally shot fighter.

I think that if you applied that particular line of my statement in the context in which it was originally written then you would see that my arguement is that Williams was on the slide - maybe not shot - but on the slide.

The fact that you ignore is that while Williams may have had decent results - up to a year before mind - against Burley, Lytell and Moore et al. - from the Cerdan fight onwards he was not the same fighter. Five wins in 15 fights is hardly the sign of someone at the top of their game - especially after 14 years as a professional fighter competing in one of the toughest eras the sport has seen.

The fact is that Holman Williams gave both Cerdan and LaMotta a decent fight. Despite the years in the ring and the miles on the clock. If that doesn't say something about the quality of Holman Williams when comparing him to Cerdan and LaMotta I don't know what does.

[dalek]

i've just watched the zale-cerdan(i have most rounds)and cerdan-lamotta(i have only highlights)and there is a HUGE difference in how marcel fights.in the zale fight he is loading up with his favourite left hooks and firing beautiful combinations.in the jake fight he his trading furiously but with right hand shots only.he SEEMS unable to fire his favourite left hooks.lamotta is firing both hands furiously and cerdan is desperate to land a huge right hand payoff.no way imo would marcel neglect the left hook unless he was unable to throw it.if jake did injure his hand it did not prevent him from throwing both hands with bad intention.

[surf-bat]

i've just watched the zale-cerdan(i have most rounds)and cerdan-lamotta(i have only highlights)and there is a HUGE difference in how marcel fights.in the zale fight he is loading up with his favourite left hooks and firing beautiful combinations.in the jake fight he his trading furiously but with right hand shots only.he SEEMS unable to fire his favourite left hooks.lamotta is firing both hands furiously and cerdan is desperate to land a huge right hand payoff.no way imo would marcel neglect the left hook unless he was unable to throw it.if jake did injure his hand it did not prevent him from throwing both hands with bad intention.

Well spoken, though it's safe to say that your observations will be stoicly ignored by LaMotta's boosters in here. They feel that not only are they entitled to their own opinions, but that they are entitled to their own facts. They want to hang on to the myths. Nothing more can be digested.

[surf-bat]

Maybe the fact that he gave "two all-time great champions" a good fight is more an indication of the abilities of LaMotta and Cerdan - at least in comparison to Holman Williams.

I don't think anyone who knows about Williams, Cerdan and LaMotta would buy that last statement.

Yes, the tail-end, but still a quality fighter. He'd just beaten a top LH in Bob Satterfield. 9 months earlier he'd beaten and lost to Archie Moore. And a year earlier beaten Bert Lytell, Charley Burley and Cocoa Kid. Not the signs of a totally shot fighter.

I think that if you applied that particular line of my statement in the context in which it was originally written then you would see that my arguement is that Williams was on the slide - maybe not shot - but on the slide.

The fact that you ignore is that while Williams may have had decent results - up to a year before mind - against Burley, Lytell and Moore et al. - from the Cerdan fight onwards he was not the same fighter. Five wins in 15 fights is hardly the sign of someone at the top of their game - especially after 14 years as a professional fighter competing in one of the toughest eras the sport has seen.

The fact is that Holman Williams gave both Cerdan and LaMotta a decent fight. Despite the years in the ring and the miles on the clock. If that doesn't say something about the quality of Holman Williams when comparing him to Cerdan and LaMotta I don't know what does.

Yes, but the rapid downslide- as you've just stated- started with Cerdan. Maybe Marcel gave him a rough fight that he never recovered from? Or maybe he just hastened what was already starting to happen to Holman(slippage).

Either way, I have a lot of respect for Williams and consider him one of the all-time greats. In no way does Cerdan's victory take away from Holman. Though I still think prime for prime Cerdan would still beat him.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

perhaps lamotta was hurt bad he was just a lot tougher than marcel.



I think lamotta would have won the rematch vs marcel

[surf-bat]

perhaps lamotta was hurt bad he was just a lot tougher than marcel.



I think lamotta would have won the rematch vs marcel

And I-as did most boxing scribes of the day- think Cerdan would have torn him up.

BB, you're a cool guy, but this is starting to sound REALLY bad on your part. Just accept the evidence presented and let's move on. It really doesn't become you to hang onto these threads of hope.

I will pm you with my thoughts regarding Marciano as promised.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

heres my unofficial top 15 middles


1. Harry Greb
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Charley Burley
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Mickey Walker
8. Holman Williams
9. Jake La Motta
10. Bernard Hopkins
11. Marcel Cerdan
12. Emile Griffith
13. Rodrigo Valdes
14. Lloyd Marshall
15. Tiger Flowers

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

perhaps lamotta was hurt bad he was just a lot tougher than marcel.



I think lamotta would have won the rematch vs marcel

And I-as did most boxing scribes of the day- think Cerdan would have torn him up.

BB, you're a cool guy, but this is starting to sound REALLY bad on your part. Just accept the evidence presented and let's move on. It really doesn't become you to hang onto these threads of hope.

I will pm you with my thoughts regarding Marciano as promised.

evidence presented??


there is more than one report as u seen that lamotta had a hand injury.


basically lamotta beat the shit out of marcel cerdan for 9 rounds and won. Lamotta hurt marcel because lamotta was very strong. I think this will always be a bad styles matchup for marcel, i cant see marcel ever beating lamotta.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

nero u dont seem to think much of lamotta do u? where do u rate him

[surf-bat]

perhaps lamotta was hurt bad he was just a lot tougher than marcel.



I think lamotta would have won the rematch vs marcel

And I-as did most boxing scribes of the day- think Cerdan would have torn him up.

BB, you're a cool guy, but this is starting to sound REALLY bad on your part. Just accept the evidence presented and let's move on. It really doesn't become you to hang onto these threads of hope.

I will pm you with my thoughts regarding Marciano as promised.

evidence presented??


there is more than one report as u seen that lamotta had a hand injury.


basically lamotta beat the shit out of marcel cerdan for 9 rounds and won. Lamotta hurt marcel because lamotta was very strong. I think this will always be a bad styles matchup for marcel, i cant see marcel ever beating lamotta.

Yes, that one report that you posted from the NY Times. What was the name of the guy who wrote that thing? Eddie Spaghetti? Tony Capuccino? Joey LaMotta? It was one of the silliest, most biased pieces of tripe I've ever read. This is post WW II America- a very patriotic time in our history- and we're expected to believe a NY newspaper's account of a NY fighter fighting in his backyard vs. a Frenchman(a people who surrendered to the Nazis)??

You already know why Jake beat him. The evidence presented by DNA and myself tells you why- Marcel Cerdan had one usable arm and Jake had two. Jake used both hands and was hooking hard to the body and head. Marcel only threw rights. Period.

[surf-bat]

nero u dont seem to think much of lamotta do u? where do u rate him

Not in my top 10. Anyone who puts him in their top 10 is, in my opinion, either not doing their homework or is more charitable than Mother Theresa.

I like Jake. He was a blue-collar warrior of the first order. For many years he was underrated, but ever since "Raging Bull" came out he has been vastly overrated.