john fury

[jonnyyorkshu]

I'm from wakefield and met Paul a few times.
I remember at a junior rugby presentation he was giving out awards for the district team and he was hammered lol, one of the players dad's brought him a black coffee and Sykes chinned him lol
I always remember the size of his hands, they were like shovels.

Do you really think that's funny? Because, to me, that is a truly despicable thing to do.

I think so too - only made worse by the setting in front of kids etc.


"Bang 'em out Sykes" - if what I hear is correct did some really despicable things inside.

No I didn't think it was funny as I was 13 at the time,
The lol was more of a "can you believe that " than a "that was funny" lol

[reggaereggae]

I didn't know the fury / Partridge thing.

What then is Tyson Furys real name - I am sure I read a while ago that "Tyson" was a nickname and not his proper name, if his surname isn't even Fury then who is he ?


Henry - you sound like the most gullible person I have ever heard of (all this man of honour, never hurt anybody innocent, had over 1,000 fights undefeated nonsense).

I certainly hope you don't get a knock on the door from somebody saying that the were driving past your house and they wanted to let you know out of the goodness of their heart that you may have a lose tile on your roof, and as luck would have it they just happen to have their ladder with them and they would be willing to take a look at it for you ......

I have had dealings with both good and bad men/women from the traveller/gypsy world, or those you would call a 'slink' who claims to be one or associates themselves with them and their ways, etc. Probably a prime example of a true huckster and conman, that I have ever met and had dealings with, was Bobby Gunn (real name Robert Logan Williamson) who in all reality is not of gypsy/traveller stock but will say that he is. The moment I began questioning things, or doing my own investigations on things, and started making my own opinions (at the time I tried to do a ratings system for BKB fighters on ATGRADIO) it turned ugly and started getting death threats on my home phone from persons associated with him and other "friends" and "relatives".

I can tell you, as far as the Gorman's and Fury's are concerned, that they are far and away more honorable and straight forward and polite/respectful than alot of others out there in the culture. That doesn't mean there isn't some bad apples, or users. Take nephew of Bartley Gorman and son of Sam Gorman, Jerry. Nice enough of a guy, and runs an unlicensed boxing organisation. However, he's the type that if he felt someone else would benefit him more, he'd drop you like a bag of potatoes. Which is what he did to me, when I said I couldn't support a certain fighter overseas who was a well known weapons/drug trafficker, and he decided to side with that man because that person was (and still is) rather popular.

That being said, I guess you have to judge each and every man upon their merits and character. John Fury, reminds me of a line in the film The River's Edge, where Kevin Bacon's character said: "I am a nice guy, just a different kind of nice guy." No, he's not as level headed as his brother. Nor is he as calm, collective, as his brother. Yes, he's brash and yes he's very blunt and can be intimidating. Peter has his hands full, in alot of ways, trying to maintain some sort of order. But then again, Peter will also say it "He's his own man, and whatever he says and does is on him." That statement he's made time and again, not just on his brother but on his own son and nephew, or towards anyone for that matter.

But do I think John Fury is a bad man? No. Do I think he can be a bit much at times? Yes. Do I think he can do better to compose himself? Sure. But do I believe he is like countless others in the culture who have done bad, and even went out of their way to kill someone? No. From what I understand of the incident (the eye gauging) Fury said some things, the other man did too, and two other men jumped in and Fury went batshit. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. As for his personal life, being violent with women, I think it goes more along these lines.... when someone is considered "the man" in that culture, its likened to being a celebrity, all the women come out of the woodwork and do whatever to be with whoever, and when their purpose is done, they are left behind and if they resist, then it gets ugly. I think John Fury loved his wife, but because he was "the man" in the culture.... there were alot of temptations. Not making excuses, because I think any man who would step out on his family even once, cant have the best of morals or ethics and must be incredibly selfish and impulsive, however there is the way of the world to consider. How many "upstanding" athletes, citizens, etc. do we all know or know of who have done the same?

I guess my point is there is varying degrees of goodness and badness. And as far as John Fury is concerned, he's not a good man, nor is he a bad one. And in his culture, he's considered something of a good man. Why? Because he's alot more reserved and respectful than alot of them out there. He'll intimidate you, he'll warn you, he may even hit you across the mouth to get the point across.... but he's not as bad as alot of them are... the most dangerous, I will assure you are those who will make the entire world believe they are on the level, but when push comes to shove, they will bury your ass without a second thought. For my money, I'd rather get the hell knocked out of me by a John Fury than I would to unintentionally make some man mad in person or on the internet and get threatened, have your family threatened, or outright get jumped and possibly killed. Think Henry Wharton and what happened to him. Think of the traveller who represented Ireland in the Olympics who got stabbed and almost died because he wouldn't do a bare knuckle fight with some idiot. Hell, even think of the persons who stole Bartley Gorman's caravan, and set fire to Tyson Fury's home. I can garuntee you, it was a traveller/gypsy family that did it.

Are you a traveller? As I grow up I must say I find this violent culture can be a bit repugnant and uncivilised. And 'culture' is not a valid excuse.

[HomicideHenry]

Are you a traveller? As I grow up I must say I find this violent culture can be a bit repugnant and uncivilised. And 'culture' is not a valid excuse.

No I am not. Was never raised that way, or ever dealt with gypsies and travellers until I was in my twenties. That being said, Father's side was Scottish/Irish/Bavarian, Mother's side was Scottish/Irish/German/Native/Gypsy/African. So I guess, considering by and large my family came from people that nobody really wanted, or were forced into places nobody wanted to settle, etc. it's pretty easy to understand the mindset or culture that Fury came from--- cus our family was sort of closed off from others in one regard or another (you didn't come into our neck of the woods, and in turn we didn't go into yours).

[los2]

is it ok to beat women if youre "the man"????????????..................

[HomicideHenry]

is it ok to beat women if youre "the man"????????????..................

It's frowned upon even in the culture, but I think alot of men focus on their own families rather than what someone else does in there's unless it is a direct confrontation within their own ranks. I know when reading Bartley Gorman's book, he talked how alot of the women were mistreated and he deemed it to be nothing more than "white slavery" and recalled how he saw a man hit his wife, and Gorman knocked the man out for doing so. I guess cus Gorman had the balls, and the "no fear" factor of it all because he was "the man". I guess ultimately it comes down to people being intimidated by some, that they don't interfere. I don't know of that many men, ordinary common persons or otherwise, who would want to stand up to someone like John Fury when he was in his prime (or even now at age 50) because of his unpredictablity and strength.

I guess the question one should ask themselves, "How often do you stand up or interfere, when you see a man treating a woman or child like that?".... I think if most people are honest, most will say they haven't, and feel incredibly bad about themselves for not doing so. It's easy for us to say such things online, and to criticize, etc. but how many would defend "the little guy" or defend some woman, if they saw some hulk of a man acting like an ass?

I think people also have to realize, its not easy either being a man in such cultures. I once dated a woman who was a third cousin to Joe Joyce ("The Incredible Hulk") who was at one time the king of the travellers in Ireland. If anyone knows anything about the film KNUCKLE they will know that one of the biggest, most talked about fights in the BKB world in recent years was between Joyce's brother Paddy and James Quinn McDonagh. Of course, McDonagh won, rather handidly. Joe Joyce would later publically say that his brother Paddy "Wasn't the full shilling", meaning he was not the best of the Joyce's and really had no business fighting the man, but because Paddy was his brother he supported him doing so. What no one knows about that whole scenario, in the aftermath, Paddy Joyce was HORSEWHIPPED by his own family for having lost to McDonagh. Why? Because he disgraced them by losing. Or so the story was told to me by my ex girlfriend.

Its a very strange world, with very bizarre codes of ethics and manhood, etc. but again I'll say it all comes down to this: there's varying degrees of good and bad in any culture, and in any family. The forum, at present, is ripping into John Fury because he seems to be the "bad egg" of the clan, or a prime example of "bad gypsies". As I pointed out before, he's considered one of the more honorable and good persons in that culture. So that tells you something. However, I will say, that he seems to be alot better than he was prior to going to prison and reconnecting with his Christian faith, etc. but every now and then the badger is let loose and he will shoot off his mouth and say some rather bizarre things or will make rude/crude gestures. But, as Peter and Tyson and others will attest, "That is on him, not us, he's his own man and should be judged for his own actions and words."

Sort of like the documentary that was aired before the Klitschko fight, where him and his father had words during sparring. He told his father to (more or less) sit his ass down, and to shut up and quit being an idiot, etc. and Peter ignored John as well and told the sparring partners to get back into the ring and keep training.

[palooka]

Are you a traveller? As I grow up I must say I find this violent culture can be a bit repugnant and uncivilised. And 'culture' is not a valid excuse.

No I am not. Was never raised that way, or ever dealt with gypsies and travellers until I was in my twenties. That being said, Father's side was Scottish/Irish/Bavarian, Mother's side was Scottish/Irish/German/Native/Gypsy/African. So I guess, considering by and large my family came from people that nobody really wanted, or were forced into places nobody wanted to settle, etc. it's pretty easy to understand the mindset or culture that Fury came from--- cus our family was sort of closed off from others in one regard or another (you didn't come into our neck of the woods, and in turn we didn't go into yours).

You're saying Fury is chippy and your family was/is chippy?

[palooka]

is it ok to beat women if youre "the man"????????????..................

It's frowned upon even in the culture, but I think alot of men focus on their own families rather than what someone else does in there's unless it is a direct confrontation within their own ranks. I know when reading Bartley Gorman's book, he talked how alot of the women were mistreated and he deemed it to be nothing more than "white slavery" and recalled how he saw a man hit his wife, and Gorman knocked the man out for doing so. I guess cus Gorman had the balls, and the "no fear" factor of it all because he was "the man". I guess ultimately it comes down to people being intimidated by some, that they don't interfere. I don't know of that many men, ordinary common persons or otherwise, who would want to stand up to someone like John Fury when he was in his prime (or even now at age 50) because of his unpredictablity and strength.

I guess the question one should ask themselves, "How often do you stand up or interfere, when you see a man treating a woman or child like that?".... I think if most people are honest, most will say they haven't, and feel incredibly bad about themselves for not doing so. It's easy for us to say such things online, and to criticize, etc. but how many would defend "the little guy" or defend some woman, if they saw some hulk of a man acting like an ass?

I think people also have to realize, its not easy either being a man in such cultures. I once dated a woman who was a third cousin to Joe Joyce ("The Incredible Hulk") who was at one time the king of the travellers in Ireland. If anyone knows anything about the film KNUCKLE they will know that one of the biggest, most talked about fights in the BKB world in recent years was between Joyce's brother Paddy and James Quinn McDonagh. Of course, McDonagh won, rather handidly. Joe Joyce would later publically say that his brother Paddy "Wasn't the full shilling", meaning he was not the best of the Joyce's and really had no business fighting the man, but because Paddy was his brother he supported him doing so. What no one knows about that whole scenario, in the aftermath, Paddy Joyce was HORSEWHIPPED by his own family for having lost to McDonagh. Why? Because he disgraced them by losing. Or so the story was told to me by my ex girlfriend.

Its a very strange world, with very bizarre codes of ethics and manhood, etc. but again I'll say it all comes down to this: there's varying degrees of good and bad in any culture, and in any family. The forum, at present, is ripping into John Fury because he seems to be the "bad egg" of the clan, or a prime example of "bad gypsies". As I pointed out before, he's considered one of the more honorable and good persons in that culture. So that tells you something. However, I will say, that he seems to be alot better than he was prior to going to prison and reconnecting with his Christian faith, etc. but every now and then the badger is let loose and he will shoot off his mouth and say some rather bizarre things or will make rude/crude gestures. But, as Peter and Tyson and others will attest, "That is on him, not us, he's his own man and should be judged for his own actions and words."

Sort of like the documentary that was aired before the Klitschko fight, where him and his father had words during sparring. He told his father to (more or less) sit his ass down, and to shut up and quit being an idiot, etc. and Peter ignored John as well and told the sparring partners to get back into the ring and keep training.

I'm gonna get me a horsewhip, need more discipline in this house.

[HomicideHenry]

Are you a traveller? As I grow up I must say I find this violent culture can be a bit repugnant and uncivilised. And 'culture' is not a valid excuse.

No I am not. Was never raised that way, or ever dealt with gypsies and travellers until I was in my twenties. That being said, Father's side was Scottish/Irish/Bavarian, Mother's side was Scottish/Irish/German/Native/Gypsy/African. So I guess, considering by and large my family came from people that nobody really wanted, or were forced into places nobody wanted to settle, etc. it's pretty easy to understand the mindset or culture that Fury came from--- cus our family was sort of closed off from others in one regard or another (you didn't come into our neck of the woods, and in turn we didn't go into yours).

You're saying Fury is chippy and your family was/is chippy?

Lmao, am not the best when it comes to slang terms....

so I am guessing you're asking me if Fury is a ray of sunshine or something, or if my family were easy to get along with?

[palooka]

It's when someone has a chip on their shoulder, they feel the world is against them, that other people think they are better than them and they pretty much have a grudge against the world and everyone in it.

[HomicideHenry]

It's when someone has a chip on their shoulder, they feel the world is against them, that other people think they are better than them and they pretty much have a grudge against the world and everyone in it.

I would say, in the case of my family, it's warranted considering my mother's people were in the area long before the Germans came and they were called squatters and forcefully moved into places no one wanted initially---- only later to convince them to give over their land to the state to become a park--- and then relocate once again, and live around the lake in trailers and modest homes. I guess cus we were native/irish/scotch/black/gypsy and protestant, as opposed to german/white/catholic. However, that was 100 years ago, but the sentiment always stayed with us and of course, to the townspeople those who lived by the lake were "lake rats", and those who lived in trailers were "trailer trash", etc. and because we weren't members of Saint Michael's Cathedral you were considered heretics and going to hell, etc. and (rather sadly) the town history was revised and never really noted the fact that we were here long before they were. The irony? They used my cousin and his father's faces, to be the models for the "Fort Loramie Redskins" native statue at the school.

As for the British/Irish/Scottish/Welsh, etc. gypsies and travellers.... the way I see it, is really no different than the native americans or aboriginies in Australia. Laws get passed, more restrictions on way of life. Laws get passed, forced into houses. Laws get passed, cultural genocide. I find it rather remarkable in Britain one can worship and live freely as a Muslim, but you can't live in a caravan the way your people did for 1,000 years and live off the land. For me, at least, it seems like the last respectable form of racism left in the world. What Great Britain has done, is to emulate America and its mistreatment of the Native American. I'll never forget the Dale Farm eviction, and those people had LEGAL RIGHTS to live on that land. And the garda showed up with guns, and forced them off the land. Very Wounded Knee like. And in the 21st century no less.

[dookus]

It's when someone has a chip on their shoulder, they feel the world is against them, that other people think they are better than them and they pretty much have a grudge against the world and everyone in it.

I would say, in the case of my family, it's warranted considering my mother's people were in the area long before the Germans came and they were called squatters and forcefully moved into places no one wanted initially---- only later to convince them to give over their land to the state to become a park--- and then relocate once again, and live around the lake in trailers and modest homes. I guess cus we were native/irish/scotch/black/gypsy and protestant, as opposed to german/white/catholic. However, that was 100 years ago, but the sentiment always stayed with us and of course, to the townspeople those who lived by the lake were "lake rats", and those who lived in trailers were "trailer trash", etc. and because we weren't members of Saint Michael's Cathedral you were considered heretics and going to hell, etc. and (rather sadly) the town history was revised and never really noted the fact that we were here long before they were. The irony? They used my cousin and his father's faces, to be the models for the "Fort Loramie Redskins" native statue at the school.

As for the British/Irish/Scottish/Welsh, etc. gypsies and travellers.... the way I see it, is really no different than the native americans or aboriginies in Australia. Laws get passed, more restrictions on way of life. Laws get passed, forced into houses. Laws get passed, cultural genocide. I find it rather remarkable in Britain one can worship and live freely as a Muslim, but you can't live in a caravan the way your people did for 1,000 years and live off the land. For me, at least, it seems like the last respectable form of racism left in the world. What Great Britain has done, is to emulate America and its mistreatment of the Native American. I'll never forget the Dale Farm eviction, and those people had LEGAL RIGHTS to live on that land. And the garda showed up with guns, and forced them off the land. Very Wounded Knee like. And in the 21st century no less.

Eh? The Irish travellers split off from the main Irish population about 1,000 years ago according to genetic studies - they are not "indigenous" to these isles any more than a gorger like me

[HomicideHenry]

Eh? The Irish travellers split off from the main Irish population about 1,000 years ago according to genetic studies - they are not "indigenous" to these isles any more than a gorger like me

Don't know where you get that, when travellers (in reality) are persons descended from those who were persecuted under Cromwell. Cromwell seized the land of many Catholics, enslaved over 500,000 persons, and those who were left behind developed their own lifestyle and even their own language. They are not romany like gypsies, though the lifestyle is very much gypsy.

[dookus]

Eh? The Irish travellers split off from the main Irish population about 1,000 years ago according to genetic studies - they are not "indigenous" to these isles any more than a gorger like me

Don't know where you get that, when travellers (in reality) are persons descended from those who were persecuted under Cromwell. Cromwell seized the land of many Catholics, enslaved over 500,000 persons, and those who were left behind developed their own lifestyle and even their own language. They are not romany like gypsies, though the lifestyle is very much gypsy.

No. What on earth does "left behind" mean?

The genetic study is quoted in this article:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/he ... 56324.html

[bripez]

Henry, you need to let it go mate - I am sure life will get more positive and happy if you do rather than dwelling on stuff that might have hapoened hundreds of years ago and spending your time listening to people telling romanticised tales if a bygone era that never was whilst using selective facts.

[HomicideHenry]

Eh? The Irish travellers split off from the main Irish population about 1,000 years ago according to genetic studies - they are not "indigenous" to these isles any more than a gorger like me

Don't know where you get that, when travellers (in reality) are persons descended from those who were persecuted under Cromwell. Cromwell seized the land of many Catholics, enslaved over 500,000 persons, and those who were left behind developed their own lifestyle and even their own language. They are not romany like gypsies, though the lifestyle is very much gypsy.

No. What on earth does "left behind" mean?

The genetic study is quoted in this article:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/he ... 56324.html

Could be because SOME families interbred with romanies, which does have ties directly to the Middle East.

However, if you read Gorman's book, it states quite clearly.... that travellers were indeed, Irish citizens who were persecuted by Cromwell and decided to adopt a different way of life, rather than ever be put in a position again to lose land, etc.

[HomicideHenry]

Henry, you need to let it go mate - I am sure life will get more positive and happy if you do rather than dwelling on stuff that might have hapoened hundreds of years ago and spending your time listening to people telling romanticised tales if a bygone era that never was whilst using selective facts.

I'm sure that's what slave owners said to the Africans, before boarding them on the ships too.

[bripez]

Henry, you need to let it go mate - I am sure life will get more positive and happy if you do rather than dwelling on stuff that might have hapoened hundreds of years ago and spending your time listening to people telling romanticised tales if a bygone era that never was whilst using selective facts.

I'm sure that's what slave owners said to the Africans, before boarding them on the ships too.

Yes, you are just like that - I see it now.

[Cyclops]

It's when someone has a chip on their shoulder, they feel the world is against them, that other people think they are better than them and they pretty much have a grudge against the world and everyone in it.

I would say, in the case of my family, it's warranted considering my mother's people were in the area long before the Germans came and they were called squatters and forcefully moved into places no one wanted initially---- only later to convince them to give over their land to the state to become a park--- and then relocate once again, and live around the lake in trailers and modest homes. I guess cus we were native/irish/scotch/black/gypsy and protestant, as opposed to german/white/catholic. However, that was 100 years ago, but the sentiment always stayed with us and of course, to the townspeople those who lived by the lake were "lake rats", and those who lived in trailers were "trailer trash", etc. and because we weren't members of Saint Michael's Cathedral you were considered heretics and going to hell, etc. and (rather sadly) the town history was revised and never really noted the fact that we were here long before they were. The irony? They used my cousin and his father's faces, to be the models for the "Fort Loramie Redskins" native statue at the school.

As for the British/Irish/Scottish/Welsh, etc. gypsies and travellers.... the way I see it, is really no different than the native americans or aboriginies in Australia. Laws get passed, more restrictions on way of life. Laws get passed, forced into houses. Laws get passed, cultural genocide. I find it rather remarkable in Britain one can worship and live freely as a Muslim, but you can't live in a caravan the way your people did for 1,000 years and live off the land. For me, at least, it seems like the last respectable form of racism left in the world. What Great Britain has done, is to emulate America and its mistreatment of the Native American. I'll never forget the Dale Farm eviction, and those people had LEGAL RIGHTS to live on that land. And the garda showed up with guns, and forced them off the land. Very Wounded Knee like. And in the 21st century no less.

fornicate me you talk some pish mate Dale Farm! The Garda! Dale Farm is in Essex you cretin so why were the garda there? They didn't have legal right to be there that's why they got evicted, and personally I'd love it if all the families on that site moved in next door to you. I wouldn't like it if I had a field opposite my house and all of a sudden they built a load of houses on it without permission so why should people be labelled racist? Yes people get concerned when traveling communities set up on land nearby to them. Maybe that IS prejudiced. But even as a card carrying wooly liberal, I can also see why. I don't know... What is it about a very tight knit scary looking group of individuals who like lighting fires, walking about with their shirts off, talking loudly in a purposefully difficult to understand dialect in pubs, fighting as a way of solving disputes, taking their kids out of schools before they turn 16, are suspicious of books and literacy, and have very unreconstructed views on the place of women to say the least, that people find so intimidating? Hmm.

Nobody's saying you can't live the life you want to, but there's laws of the land. Travelers have a not unfounded reputation for respecting only their own laws. I suppose people feel intimidated by them because they are intimidating. I suppose people feel they are bullies because that's how they often appear. That's what the 'toughest' guy culture, the hardman culture, is all about really. Being a bully. I grew up around travelers and I saw with my own eyes that yes they had a culture but they were Caucasians the same as me and I say from experience that the traveler way of life is often a tough and unhappy one. The ones that I knew? They grew up fast and many of them died young, and they suffered. Wives and girlfriends especially. They aren't accepted by 'society' and perhaps there should be more open discussion as to why and how it can be addressed. Yes there is racism towards them. Absolutely. It's a problem. But saying "you are prejudice" and telling people to shut up doesn't help, because they ARE scary, they ARE violent, and like other posters have said this concept of 'honorable' is very subjective and personally having seen lads who dared to stand up to them getting absolutely mullered by gangs of cousins and brothers. Many times, I have to say I find that concept something of a joke. I don't know what it's like in other places, but it's definitely a British and Irish issue which you, sir, know fornicate all about. You don't live here, you don't really know anything apart from what you've read in 'King of the Gypsies' and what you've made up in your head but hey, you're entitled to an opinion.

[Coco]

Wounded Knee? They all just moved on to the adjoining site

[Tomasino]

Really outdone yourself here Rufus, bravo. Wounded knee indeed, keep it coming!

Just out of interest, do you believe Bartley had over 300 BKB fights unbeaten? Even in his book it seemed liked he only had a couple, the rest being drunken brawls in pubs etc with nobodies.

[chiggsy]

Henry, you need to let it go mate - I am sure life will get more positive and happy if you do rather than dwelling on stuff that might have hapoened hundreds of years ago and spending your time listening to people telling romanticised tales if a bygone era that never was whilst using selective facts.

I'm sure that's what slave owners said to the Africans, before boarding them on the ships too.

[nfc90210]

I ready few interesting boxing books years ago....quirkier than the usual stuff

One was Rope Burns by Ian Probert (although it do rains a weird chapter thats totally out of place about when he picks up a rent boy or something), This Bloody Mary is the last thing I own by Jonathan Rendall (I think he may have passed.)

And one more book whose title I can't remember... About mainly Manchester fighters, and all I can remember it featured Michael Gomez and about his manslaughter charge.

Does that book ring any bells?

It does pal, Fighting Chance by Derick Allsop, got it on bookshelf. Just had a look on Amazon there's a used copy for £1.99 and a new copy for just under £990!

Just watched Gomez v Arthur on boxing gold off sky sports - what a scrap that was.

There's kindle version of the Allsop book for £4.99. If you have a smart phone just download the Kindle app and you're good to go.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fighting-Chance ... ick+Allsop

[palooka]

It's when someone has a chip on their shoulder, they feel the world is against them, that other people think they are better than them and they pretty much have a grudge against the world and everyone in it.

I would say, in the case of my family, it's warranted considering my mother's people were in the area long before the Germans came and they were called squatters and forcefully moved into places no one wanted initially---- only later to convince them to give over their land to the state to become a park--- and then relocate once again, and live around the lake in trailers and modest homes. I guess cus we were native/irish/scotch/black/gypsy and protestant, as opposed to german/white/catholic. However, that was 100 years ago, but the sentiment always stayed with us and of course, to the townspeople those who lived by the lake were "lake rats", and those who lived in trailers were "trailer trash", etc. and because we weren't members of Saint Michael's Cathedral you were considered heretics and going to hell, etc. and (rather sadly) the town history was revised and never really noted the fact that we were here long before they were. The irony? They used my cousin and his father's faces, to be the models for the "Fort Loramie Redskins" native statue at the school.

As for the British/Irish/Scottish/Welsh, etc. gypsies and travellers.... the way I see it, is really no different than the native americans or aboriginies in Australia. Laws get passed, more restrictions on way of life. Laws get passed, forced into houses. Laws get passed, cultural genocide. I find it rather remarkable in Britain one can worship and live freely as a Muslim, but you can't live in a caravan the way your people did for 1,000 years and live off the land. For me, at least, it seems like the last respectable form of racism left in the world. What Great Britain has done, is to emulate America and its mistreatment of the Native American. I'll never forget the Dale Farm eviction, and those people had LEGAL RIGHTS to live on that land. And the garda showed up with guns, and forced them off the land. Very Wounded Knee like. And in the 21st century no less.

eff me you talk some pish mate Dale Farm! The Garda! Dale Farm is in Essex you cretin so why were the garda there? They didn't have legal right to be there that's why they got evicted, and personally I'd love it if all the families on that site moved in next door to you. I wouldn't like it if I had a field opposite my house and all of a sudden they built a load of houses on it without permission so why should people be labelled racist? Yes people get concerned when traveling communities set up on land nearby to them. Maybe that IS prejudiced. But even as a card carrying wooly liberal, I can also see why. I don't know... What is it about a very tight knit scary looking group of individuals who like lighting fires, walking about with their shirts off, talking loudly in a purposefully difficult to understand dialect in pubs, fighting as a way of solving disputes, taking their kids out of schools before they turn 16, are suspicious of books and literacy, and have very unreconstructed views on the place of women to say the least, that people find so intimidating? Hmm.

Nobody's saying you can't live the life you want to, but there's laws of the land. Travelers have a not unfounded reputation for respecting only their own laws. I suppose people feel intimidated by them because they are intimidating. I suppose people feel they are bullies because that's how they often appear. That's what the 'toughest' guy culture, the hardman culture, is all about really. Being a bully. I grew up around travelers and I saw with my own eyes that yes they had a culture but they were Caucasians the same as me and I say from experience that the traveler way of life is often a tough and unhappy one. The ones that I knew? They grew up fast and many of them died young, and they suffered. Wives and girlfriends especially. They aren't accepted by 'society' and perhaps there should be more open discussion as to why and how it can be addressed. Yes there is racism towards them. Absolutely. It's a problem. But saying "you are prejudice" and telling people to shut up doesn't help, because they ARE scary, they ARE violent, and like other posters have said this concept of 'honorable' is very subjective and personally having seen lads who dared to stand up to them getting absolutely mullered by gangs of cousins and brothers. Many times, I have to say I find that concept something of a joke. I don't know what it's like in other places, but it's definitely a British and Irish issue which you, sir, know eff all about. You don't live here, you don't really know anything apart from what you've read in 'King of the Gypsies' and what you've made up in your head but hey, you're entitled to an opinion.

good post and great points.

This honourable thing, what it means in reality is that a mouthy and aggressive lad will cause some bother and if they are called on it the hardest of their group will step in to 'back up' their cousin/brother/mate. I've seen some bad stuff, Doncaster has a very large traveller community with a few sites. Many are sound and many are not. I knew Henry Francis' brother and he was wild and a real bully, he was a heavy duty addict and would tax prostitutes of money and drugs - not good.

[bripez]

Henry, you need to let it go mate - I am sure life will get more positive and happy if you do rather than dwelling on stuff that might have hapoened hundreds of years ago and spending your time listening to people telling romanticised tales if a bygone era that never was whilst using selective facts.

I'm sure that's what slave owners said to the Africans, before boarding them on the ships too.

Is there still time to vote for the post of the year?

[palooka]

It came not long after I'd explained what 'chippy' meant