Who next for Virgil Hill?

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 01 Feb 2006, 09:48

A 42 year old Hill beat unbeaten puncher Brudov last fri, to get the WBA regular belt - a neat little addition to a HOF career. What next for 'Quicksilver', who still can move, looks strong at 200lbs and has a wealth of experience to draw on?

Hill has always had excellent conditioning, which obviously keeps him going. I don't think he's a shot fighter - after those one sided losses to Michalczewski (1997) and Jones (1998), he looked through. obviously they were too young & fresh for the 33/34 year old with the mileage of 20 title defenses behind him

but the move up to cruiser helped him, where he looked much stronger, more sturdy and with enough speed to compete w/ bigger men...stopping old foe Tiozzo in one for the WBA cruiser title, losing it in a tough fight to a fresh young guy called Jean Marc Mormeck - and then giving Mormeck all he could handle in the rematch - far better form.

Hill has these guys on his list, for one last money fight:

James Toney
Antonio tarver
Johnny Nelson

thoughts?

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 01 Feb 2006, 09:51

Toney won't get down to cruiser!

He can always get KO'ed in less than 4 by Haye.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 01 Feb 2006, 10:05

Max Molyneux wrote:Toney won't get down to cruiser!

He can always get KO'ed in less than 4 by Haye.

that'd be at heavyweight, probably if Toney beats Rahman - i remember in 2004 there was talk of Hill vs Byrd! glad that didn't happen.

i read an article from a north dakota writer, it was a good, sensible piece - not the usual hometown nuthugger stuff - saying that Hill's after one cash in fight against a high calibre man in his late '30s.

that rules out nelson i guess, Johnny brings boxing skill but not money

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 01 Feb 2006, 10:25

I does depend alot on what Hill wants, if he wants to go out in his next fight win, lose or draw - then why not a crack at the heavyweight title. What a HOF style achievement that would be (already secure HOF'er years ago). If he wants a defining fight (like he needs one) where he can come back and still add some achievments, then I would look at Bell.

If he loses to Bell (and he won't look out of his depth) I'm sure there will be versions of the Cruiserweight belt scattered around somewhere. If Johnny beats Enzo there will sure to be a vacant WBO title around.

BigEars · Post by **BigEars** » 01 Feb 2006, 12:22

What would happen if Hill faught Nelson (assuming Nelson beats Enzo and doesn't retire) and won , would he be crowned the WBA Super Champ #2 and another WBA regular title holder would have to be found ?

It really does show the stupidity of the Super Champion idea and that it's just done for sanctioning fees .

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 01 Feb 2006, 12:24

stujones wrote:I does depend alot on what Hill wants, if he wants to go out in his next fight win, lose or draw - then why not a crack at the heavyweight title. What a HOF style achievement that would be (already secure HOF'er years ago). If he wants a defining fight (like he needs one) where he can come back and still add some achievments, then I would look at Bell.

If he loses to Bell (and he won't look out of his depth) I'm sure there will be versions of the Cruiserweight belt scattered around somewhere. If Johnny beats Enzo there will sure to be a vacant WBO title around.

Not sure about Hill as hall of fame material, although lately they do seem to have dropped the standards required to get in quite some way. I mean the guy he beat to win this title was hardly world class.

Neri · Post by **Neri** » 01 Feb 2006, 12:45

Good for Hill on his win over big punching Brudov at 42, but i'm just not caught up in the achievement.

The WBA title he won is a phony title, its not a world title. What the WBA says doesn't go with me i'm afraid.

Putting it into perspective Hill-Brudov was a fight for a top 10 spot.

dandantheweatherman · Post by **dandantheweatherman** » 01 Feb 2006, 12:45

Just wonder if the money/interest would be there for a fight between Hill and someone who could generate him a decent payday in the US. If Haye has only 3-4 fights left in him at cruiserweight is there merit in making Hill an offer to come over here and see what Haye can do. Hill gets a payday and Haye maybe becomes world champion, which if he did would presumably give him a little more to bring to the table when he inevitably steps up to heavyweight.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 01 Feb 2006, 13:15

stujones wrote:What a HOF style achievement that would be (already secure HOF'er years ago). If he wants a defining fight (like he needs one) where he can come back and still add some achievments, then I would look at Bell.

Dunno about Hill and the HOF. He had a long string of defences but I just dont think he is good enough compared to true all time greats.

How about 'greatest fighter to ever come out of North Dacota'? I would agree with that!

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 01 Feb 2006, 14:04

i'd definitely put Hill in the hof. he beat some very tough fighters - Leslie Stewart (coming off a KO win of Marvin Johnson), Bobby Bzyz, James Kinchen (a man robbed vs hearns for the WBO 168-lb title), Fabrice Tiozzo (who went on to beat McCallum) - and not forgetting Henry Maske.

Maske had made around 8 or 9 quality title defenses (had beaten PC Willaims, Hembrick, Barkley, Rocchigiani), was a massive 6'4 southpaw & Hill beat him to unify the WBA and IBF bets and establish himself as Lineal champ. make no mistake, Hill's win was a major achievement - sort of made up for a lot fo the easy fights he took as well as the Hearns loss.

not forgetting a slew of former titlists/future title holders Frank Tate (twice), Adolpho Washington, Lou del Valle, Lalonde, that he set back.

seems like Brudov's a heck of a puncher, maybe he can sharpen up & be something, as Ezo Macca & Haye are shaping up.

To me, Hill's a HOFer in the way that, say, Toney is. not a legend, but a man of outstanding achievement when you connect the dots. he's achieved a lot with that simple jab and circle style.

sure, that half of the WBA title doesn't mean much, but it gives him some bargaining power to get one last big 'un, and he's revitalised my interest

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 01 Feb 2006, 14:27

TerribleTerry wrote:
stujones wrote:What a HOF style achievement that would be (already secure HOF'er years ago). If he wants a defining fight (like he needs one) where he can come back and still add some achievments, then I would look at Bell.
Dunno about Hill and the HOF. He had a long string of defences but I just dont think he is good enough compared to true all time greats.

How about 'greatest fighter to ever come out of North Dacota'? I would agree with that!

I know what you mean, TT, but your last sentence could actually be read another way -- how different is coming from ND to say, Manchester or Liverpool? I know it's still technically in the USA, but would he have had to travel to France, Germany, Australia, England, Canada, South Africa, if he was based in one of the big coastal cities with that sort of fanbase available? Maybe he still wouldn't have made it to PPV status - given his style is almost purely based around the single most basic (and effective) punch in boxing, which many people find boring. Add to that his bad luck in his two most high profile PPV fights against 'names' - choking against Hearns then getting caught by a one-off humdinger by Jones (in a contest that was shaping up to be very interesting indeed) - and maybe he never would have been a big PPV HBO name... but should that be a prerequisite for getting into Canastota?

The way I see him is as an old school fighter, in the sense that he grafted a career out of skill rather than fitness. He also gets lots of kudos for going abroad and beating quite a few unbeaten hometown hero's on their home soil. It hurts the likes of Roy Jones, for example, that he never travelled anywhere (IMO). The Olympic excuse doesn't really cut it. Anyone claiming true World honours should be prepared to put them on the line around said world, even if it means putting themselves out once or twice.

Anyway, fighters like Lou Del Valle and Adolpho Washington were pretty fresh when Hill had to fight them and the Leslie Stewart win was a signature (brutal) breakthrough... overall I think Hill deserves to be in the lower-to-mid echeleon in any HOF.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 01 Feb 2006, 14:47

Manos de Oro wrote:
TerribleTerry wrote:
stujones wrote:What a HOF style achievement that would be (already secure HOF'er years ago). If he wants a defining fight (like he needs one) where he can come back and still add some achievments, then I would look at Bell.
Dunno about Hill and the HOF. He had a long string of defences but I just dont think he is good enough compared to true all time greats.

How about 'greatest fighter to ever come out of North Dacota'? I would agree with that!
I know what you mean, TT, but your last sentence could actually be read another way -- how different is coming from ND to say, Manchester or Liverpool? I know it's still technically in the USA, but would he have had to travel to France, Germany, Australia, England, Canada, South Africa, if he was based in one of the big coastal cities with that sort of fanbase available? Maybe he still wouldn't have made it to PPV status - given his style is almost purely based around the single most basic (and effective) punch in boxing, which many people find boring. Add to that his bad luck in his two most high profile PPV fights against 'names' - choking against Hearns then getting caught by a one-off humdinger by Jones (in a contest that was shaping up to be very interesting indeed) - and maybe he never would have been a big PPV HBO name... but should that be a prerequisite for getting into Canastota?

The way I see him is as an old school fighter, in the sense that he grafted a career out of skill rather than fitness. He also gets lots of kudos for going abroad and beating quite a few unbeaten hometown hero's on their home soil. It hurts the likes of Roy Jones, for example, that he never travelled anywhere (IMO). The Olympic excuse doesn't really cut it. Anyone claiming true World honours should be prepared to put them on the line around said world, even if it means putting themselves out once or twice.

Anyway, fighters like Lou Del Valle and Adolpho Washington were pretty fresh when Hill had to fight them and the Leslie Stewart win was a signature (brutal) breakthrough... overall I think Hill deserves to be in the lower-to-mid echeleon in any HOF.

How is it 'bad luck' that Jones stopped him with a fantastic shot or that Hearns outpointed him with relative ease?

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 01 Feb 2006, 15:04

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Manos de Oro wrote:
TerribleTerry wrote: Dunno about Hill and the HOF. He had a long string of defences but I just dont think he is good enough compared to true all time greats.

How about 'greatest fighter to ever come out of North Dacota'? I would agree with that!
I know what you mean, TT, but your last sentence could actually be read another way -- how different is coming from ND to say, Manchester or Liverpool? I know it's still technically in the USA, but would he have had to travel to France, Germany, Australia, England, Canada, South Africa, if he was based in one of the big coastal cities with that sort of fanbase available? Maybe he still wouldn't have made it to PPV status - given his style is almost purely based around the single most basic (and effective) punch in boxing, which many people find boring. Add to that his bad luck in his two most high profile PPV fights against 'names' - choking against Hearns then getting caught by a one-off humdinger by Jones (in a contest that was shaping up to be very interesting indeed) - and maybe he never would have been a big PPV HBO name... but should that be a prerequisite for getting into Canastota?

The way I see him is as an old school fighter, in the sense that he grafted a career out of skill rather than fitness. He also gets lots of kudos for going abroad and beating quite a few unbeaten hometown hero's on their home soil. It hurts the likes of Roy Jones, for example, that he never travelled anywhere (IMO). The Olympic excuse doesn't really cut it. Anyone claiming true World honours should be prepared to put them on the line around said world, even if it means putting themselves out once or twice.

Anyway, fighters like Lou Del Valle and Adolpho Washington were pretty fresh when Hill had to fight them and the Leslie Stewart win was a signature (brutal) breakthrough... overall I think Hill deserves to be in the lower-to-mid echeleon in any HOF.
How is it 'bad luck' that Jones stopped him with a fantastic shot or that Hearns outpointed him with relative ease?

Hill's jabbing style let him down vs Hearns - no one can outjab The Hitman.

Sure Jones stopped Hill, but Hill had come off an absoute battering at the hands of a prime Michalczewski & was dead at the weight.

what i like is how he rebounds from setbacks. Hearns dominated by Barkely, Barkely stopped by Maske, Hill beats Maske clearly

looks horrible vs Jones, but jumps up a division & looks great stopping Tiozzo in one

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 01 Feb 2006, 15:21

Manos de Oro wrote:
TerribleTerry wrote:
stujones wrote:What a HOF style achievement that would be (already secure HOF'er years ago). If he wants a defining fight (like he needs one) where he can come back and still add some achievments, then I would look at Bell.
Dunno about Hill and the HOF. He had a long string of defences but I just dont think he is good enough compared to true all time greats.

How about 'greatest fighter to ever come out of North Dacota'? I would agree with that!
I know what you mean, TT, but your last sentence could actually be read another way -- how different is coming from ND to say, Manchester or Liverpool? I know it's still technically in the USA, but would he have had to travel to France, Germany, Australia, England, Canada, South Africa, if he was based in one of the big coastal cities with that sort of fanbase available? Maybe he still wouldn't have made it to PPV status - given his style is almost purely based around the single most basic (and effective) punch in boxing, which many people find boring. Add to that his bad luck in his two most high profile PPV fights against 'names' - choking against Hearns then getting caught by a one-off humdinger by Jones (in a contest that was shaping up to be very interesting indeed) - and maybe he never would have been a big PPV HBO name... but should that be a prerequisite for getting into Canastota?

The way I see him is as an old school fighter, in the sense that he grafted a career out of skill rather than fitness. He also gets lots of kudos for going abroad and beating quite a few unbeaten hometown hero's on their home soil. It hurts the likes of Roy Jones, for example, that he never travelled anywhere (IMO). The Olympic excuse doesn't really cut it. Anyone claiming true World honours should be prepared to put them on the line around said world, even if it means putting themselves out once or twice.

Anyway, fighters like Lou Del Valle and Adolpho Washington were pretty fresh when Hill had to fight them and the Leslie Stewart win was a signature (brutal) breakthrough... overall I think Hill deserves to be in the lower-to-mid echeleon in any HOF.

When he lost to Michalczewski it was his third undefeated foe in a row, and also his second unification fight on hostile soil in a row. ppl mention the hometown stuff but often neglect to mention he became a bit of a road warrior.

never saw the Washington fight - when the cameraman moved in too close to Washington's corner and CUT Washington, making the fight end! But I hear Hill was well winning.

Stewart was a superb fighter for a couple of years, I love watching his fights with Marvin Johnson. Even when shot, Stewart was giving Moorer fits.

The main complaint with Hill is he didn't fight Moorer (whose WBO title kept him out of the picture), Moorer's WBO successor Leeonzer Barber (globetrotting titlist who fought everywhere from Leeds to China!), PC Williams (always injured) & Andries/Harding - busy fighting each other.

But hey he beat the man who beat Williams (Maske) and he'd already beaten the man who'd end up with Andries/Harding's belt (Tiozzo, whom he edged in a cracking 1993 fight in France)

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 01 Feb 2006, 15:48

I do agree that this current title is a paper one, but no more a paper champion than Howard Eastman would have been had he beaten Joppy.

I think Hill is an absolute shoe in for the Hall of Fame.

Its not just defeats to Hearns, Jones and Michaelswecki, but others but his wins.

Bobby Czyz - goes on to win world titles

Frank Tate - former world champion.

Washington - future world champion.

Lou De Ville - Future world champion.

Henry Maske - World champion, in germany.

None were outstanding champions, but world champions nevertheless and Hill beat them easy.

Plus there the likes of Thadzi, Montana, Ashley, Kinichen and others - who were good fighters and very worthy of title fights. If the reports of Lanlonde in training were true then that win was decent.

When he beat Maske he was considered in the top 3 P4P - it was Jones, Whittikar and Hill.

As I said, no shame in losing to Jones, Hearns, Dariuz and Jean Marc Mormeck (in his 40's).

His resume is much better then many who have been inducted already.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 01 Feb 2006, 16:01

stujones wrote:I do agree that this current title is a paper one, but no more a paper champion than Howard Eastman would have been had he beaten Joppy.

I think Hill is an absolute shoe in for the Hall of Fame.

Its not just defeats to Hearns, Jones and Michaelswecki, but others but his wins.

Bobby Czyz - goes on to win world titles

Frank Tate - former world champion.

Washington - future world champion.

Lou De Ville - Future world champion.

Henry Maske - World champion, in germany.

None were outstanding champions, but world champions nevertheless and Hill beat them easy.

Plus there the likes of Thadzi, Montana, Ashley, Kinichen and others - who were good fighters and very worthy of title fights. If the reports of Lanlonde in training were true then that win was decent.

When he beat Maske he was considered in the top 3 P4P - it was Jones, Whittikar and Hill.

As I said, no shame in losing to Jones, Hearns, Dariuz and Jean Marc Mormeck (in his 40's).

His resume is much better then many who have been inducted already.

Maske was outstanding, one heck of a quality title reign. he absolutely dominated PC Williams, Barkley, Hembrick, Egerton Marcus, and outboxed the very tough Graciano Rocchigiani in their rematch. he took on a good fighter nearly every defense of his IBF title.

Tiozzo was a fearsome light heavy, he ended the Great Mike McCallum as a top level fighter. McCallum had beaten Jeff Harding and dissected Carl Jones, but was never the same post Tiozzo.

Stewart could've been superb, but he was never the same after the Hill loss.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 01 Feb 2006, 16:02

Hill is not terribly well regarded amonst boxing writers in America, including those who vote on the hall of fame.

He was never a major name in boxing, and that is one of the most important criteria. This is why McGuigan got in despite a brief and not very impressive reign, after winning the title from an ageing champ at the end of his reign. He was hugely popular on both sides of the atlantic whereas Hill was popular nowhere outside of Bismark.

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 01 Feb 2006, 18:39

jamesmcdonnell wrote:How is it 'bad luck' that Jones stopped him with a fantastic shot or that Hearns outpointed him with relative ease?

Because on his right night I think he could have possibly beaten both of them.

Axe · Post by **Axe** » 01 Feb 2006, 21:29

If Hill beats Suckalips I would never stop laughing at the milk dud. And with the way Hill fought Brudov, such an outcome is VERY likely.

And beating up a 29 year old Brudov at age 42 is simply amazing, theres no other way of putting it folks.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 02 Feb 2006, 01:35

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Hill is not terribly well regarded amonst boxing writers in America, including those who vote on the hall of fame.

He was never a major name in boxing, and that is one of the most important criteria. This is why McGuigan got in despite a brief and not very impressive reign, after winning the title from an ageing champ at the end of his reign. He was hugely popular on both sides of the atlantic whereas Hill was popular nowhere outside of Bismark.

Ring magazine absolutely hated the guy, but he deserves reassessment especially after the Maske unification

Raff The Frenchman · Post by **Raff The Frenchman** » 02 Feb 2006, 08:25

tiozzo was all rusty, fat and inactive when Hill KOed him the second time...Tiozzo just didnt fit the CW, now he is back to LH and he beating the top guys again...while Hill didnt fit LH and was feeling much much better at CW. no surprise he beat Brudov in their rematch.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Feb 2006, 08:46

Manos de Oro wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:How is it 'bad luck' that Jones stopped him with a fantastic shot or that Hearns outpointed him with relative ease?
Because on his right night I think he could have possibly beaten both of them.

What a ridiculous comment. do you actually read what you type?

That's like me getting blown out by Naomi campbell after trying to chat her up and saying 'I reckon on another night I'd have shagged her bandy.'

Hey I reckon that on the right night that Danny Williams could have beaten Vitali Klitchsko, never mind the fact that he got knocked bandy, IT WAS JUST BAD LUCK.

There is no bad luck involved, Jones Jr battered him and hearns boxed his ears off.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 02 Feb 2006, 09:08

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Manos de Oro wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:How is it 'bad luck' that Jones stopped him with a fantastic shot or that Hearns outpointed him with relative ease?
Because on his right night I think he could have possibly beaten both of them.
What a ridiculous comment. do you actually read what you type?

That's like me getting blown out by Naomi campbell after trying to chat her up and saying 'I reckon on another night I'd have shagged her bandy.'

Hey I reckon that on the right night that Danny Williams could have beaten Vitali Klitchsko, never mind the fact that he got knocked bandy, IT WAS JUST BAD LUCK.

There is no bad luck involved, Jones Jr battered him and hearns boxed his ears off.

sure, but would Jones have gone anywhere near a younger, on form Hill? he waited till he'd lost a one-sided decision and THEN fought him. echoes of the Jones-McCallum fight, Jones fighting the veteran after getting beaten up and having lost his title

Hill looked like he was walking through treacle (as Darkie wouild say) vs Jones. VH's timing was off (obviously Jones' speed had something to do with that as well) and out of nowhere in rd 4 that body shot happened.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Feb 2006, 09:17

I think Jones would have beaten Hill at any time in his career personally.

Jones didn't avoid McCallum, McCallum was really from a different era to Jones, he moved up to light heavyweight late in his career, and was well past his best, this is true.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 02 Feb 2006, 09:29

I question how well Jones would've done against a lot of the light heavyweight champions, when they were on form. Jones is really a middle / super middle who outweighed almost all his foes at that weight by around 20-lbs (like the super feather de la hoya did).

but as a light heavy, he was quite small & he got a real easy shortcut to the titles.

With so many excellent fighters about - Tiozzo, Rocchigiani, Michalczewski, Maske, pre michalczewski Hill - it's appalling that a man as talented as Jones didn't fight 'em.

of course, Jones' speed and compactness would be difficult for naturally heavier men. but what would happen if he took a really hard shot, got put under a sustained attack or went through a rough patch by proper 175-lbers who're in their groove.