Top 25 Lightweights of All-Time

[elmersalsa]

Ross should be top 10, possibly top 5.
He was beat Canzoneri (who is rated 8th on this list). He also beat Bat Battalino and Billy Petrolle. His only losses at lightweight were in the firs two years of his career.

McFarland beat Welsh (who is 19th on this list) Also beat Tommy Murphy and had a draw with Jack Britton. He never lost.

Sammy Angott beat Baby Arizmendi, Willie Pep, and Lew Jenkins.

All three (Ross, McFarland, and Angott) are huge oversights. It would be like a heavyweight list and leaving out Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, and James Jeffries.

All have vastly superior resumes to people like Buchanan, Laguna, DeJesus and Kansas. Hard to believe anyone would even debate this.

Because Ismael Laguna, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus and Rocky Kansas were fantastic and excellent boxers, that's why nobody debates.

They're right in the top 15 to 20th slots. Well deserved lightweight champions

[keithmoonhangover]

Ross should be top 10, possibly top 5.
He was beat Canzoneri (who is rated 8th on this list). He also beat Bat Battalino and Billy Petrolle. His only losses at lightweight were in the firs two years of his career.

McFarland beat Welsh (who is 19th on this list) Also beat Tommy Murphy and had a draw with Jack Britton. He never lost.

Sammy Angott beat Baby Arizmendi, Willie Pep, and Lew Jenkins.

All three (Ross, McFarland, and Angott) are huge oversights. It would be like a heavyweight list and leaving out Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, and James Jeffries.

All have vastly superior resumes to people like Buchanan, Laguna, DeJesus and Kansas. Hard to believe anyone would even debate this.

Because Ismael Laguna, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus and Rocky Kansas were fantastic and excellent boxers, that's why nobody debates.

They're right in the top 15 to 20th slots. Well deserved lightweight champions

Dejesus was very good, he beat this dude called Roberto something-or-other.

[Senya13]

Because Ismael Laguna, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus and Rocky Kansas were fantastic and excellent boxers, that's why nobody debates.

Rocky Kansas fantastic, excellent boxer?

[Ambling Alp II]

That is a new one isn't is?

Have never seen a lightweight list where DeJesus, Buchanan, and Laguna are in, but somehow truly great fighters like Ross, McFarland, and Angott somehow are not.

Ross, McFarland, and Angott have tremendous career records. They all have multiple major wins.
Virtually any reputable boxing fan would rank them far ahead of DeJesus, Buchanan, and Laguna.

DeJesus beat Duran. His next biggest win is over who? Guts Ishimatsu?
Buchanan doesn't really have one. Best would be Laguna. Big deal. Actually lost to Ishimatsu.
Laguna beat Ortiz once out of three and has little else. He lost badly every other time he fought a great fighter.

It's almost as if the idea was to prop up Duran. Gee, that couldn't be it, could it?

[elmersalsa]

That is a new one isn't is?

Have never seen a lightweight list where DeJesus, Buchanan, and Laguna are in, but somehow truly great fighters like Ross, McFarland, and Angott somehow are not.

Ross, McFarland, and Angott have tremendous career records. They all have multiple major wins.
Virtually any reputable boxing fan would rank them far ahead of DeJesus, Buchanan, and Laguna.

DeJesus beat Duran. His next biggest win is over who? Guts Ishimatsu?
Buchanan doesn't really have one. Best would be Laguna. Big deal. Actually lost to Ishimatsu.
Laguna beat Ortiz once out of three and has little else. He lost badly every other time he fought a great fighter.

It's almost as if the idea was to prop up Duran. Gee, that couldn't be it, could it?

The Ring Magazine has Esteban DeJesus, Ken Buchanan, and Ismael Laguna in their top 20 all time lightweight rankings. Not a shame at all. Fantastic boxers that fought the best of their era

[elmersalsa]

Because Ismael Laguna, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus and Rocky Kansas were fantastic and excellent boxers, that's why nobody debates.

Rocky Kansas fantastic, excellent boxer?

Yes, he was a fantastic fighter at lightweight

[Senya13]

Do you mind providing a couple of quotes from contemporary newspapers, outside of Buffalo, that praised Rocky Kansas as fantastic, excellent boxer or used similar terms?

[King Carlos]

Laguna beat Ortiz once out of three and has little else.

Ramos, Ishimatsu, Hernandez, Carmona, Garcia, Urbina, Espinoza, Narvaez, a "draw" with Locche in Argentina, and a disputed loss to Saldivar. Along with his razor close fights against Buchanan.

That's 5 champions beaten, with disputed decisions against 3 others, and 4 more wins against top contenders. Not too shabby.

He lost badly every other time he fought a great fighter.

He was never stopped in his entire career. What fights are you suggesting?

[elmersalsa]

Laguna beat Ortiz once out of three and has little else.

Ramos, Ishimatsu, Hernandez, Carmona, Garcia, Urbina, Espinoza, Narvaez, a "draw" with Locche in Argentina, and a disputed loss to Saldivar. Along with his razor close fights against Buchanan.

That's 5 champions beaten, with disputed decisions against 3 others, and 4 more wins against top contenders. Not too shabby.

He lost badly every other time he fought a great fighter.

He was never stopped in his entire career. What fights are you suggesting?

Somebody knows something in here. Thanks, King Carlos!

[elmersalsa]

Do you mind providing a couple of quotes from contemporary newspapers, outside of Buffalo, that praised Rocky Kansas as fantastic, excellent boxer or used similar terms?

Let's look at his record. Rocky Kansas was very good

[Ambling Alp II]

Laguna beat Ortiz once out of three and has little else.

Ramos, Ishimatsu, Hernandez, Carmona, Garcia, Urbina, Espinoza, Narvaez, a "draw" with Locche in Argentina, and a disputed loss to Saldivar. Along with his razor close fights against Buchanan.

That's 5 champions beaten, with disputed decisions against 3 others, and 4 more wins against top contenders. Not too shabby.

He lost badly every other time he fought a great fighter.

He was never stopped in his entire career. What fights are you suggesting?

Beating those "champions" looks good, until you compare that to what truly great fighters did. (I should amend the statement about losing badly. Take out the word badly.) Outside of Ortiz, none of those "champions" would have been a champion in era where there was just one champion. Angott, McFarland, and Ross all beat several fighters of that level that most people don't remember.
Plus they all beat great fighters:

Angott beat Arizmendi, Pep and Jenkins.
McFarland beat Welsh, draw with Britton. Never lost a fight.
Ross beat Battalino, Petrolle, and Canzoneri twice.

Ring Magazine must have been out of their mind having Buchanan, Laguna, and DeJesus ahead of greats.

Boxing News has Buchanan #19 and Laguna #21, which is pretty charitable. They don't have DeJesus in their top 25.
They have McFarland, #10, Ross # 12, Angott #13.

The IBHOF:
Buchanan did not make it until 2000.
Laguna didn't make it until 2001.
DeJesus still isn't in.

Angott made it in 1998.
McFarland made it in 1992.
Barney Ross made it in the very first class of 1990.

Our own Boxrec Hall of Fame after 20 elections:
Buchanan never made it.
Laguna never made it.
DeJesus never made it.

Angott made it on our 16th election.
McFarland made it on 8th.
Ross made it on our 2nd election ever. Same time as Benny Leonard and Joe Gans made it.

[King Carlos]

I wasn't comparing him to those guys. Elmer was. Their records speak for themselves. I guess the point I was trying to make was that it's unnecessary to talk down what Buchanan and Laguna accomplished in order to heighten the standings of those fighters.

[Ambling Alp II]

I didn't mean to talk them down. Sorry if it seemed that way. Obviously if you compare to them to the average guy who steps in the ring they were really good. Compare them to McFarland, Angott, an especially Ross (which is what we are doing) and they don't look good.

[Ezzard]

Angott is a forgotten great. I always used to think of him as the guy who lost to Robinson 1 pound above the weight limit.

Like KC's take on all this. They are all quality fighters. Just some more than others.

[scartissue]

Guys, the Sammy Angott subject can be a sore one, especially when one has envisioned something about a fighter without actually seeing him fight. We all do it as avid boxing fans on a historical plain. Growing up and reading about absolutely every fighter that was, I envisioned from his record that Sammy Angott was a nice boxer, excellent jaw, not much of a punch and stamina to burn. Then I ran into Davey Day, a top lightweight of the '30s, who fought Angott twice. I was talking to Day mostly about the Armstrong fight and such when I asked him about the Sammy Angott fights. In no uncertain terms he referenced Angott as "a bum!" I cringed and asked why. He said because all he did was clinch and hold onto him in both their fights (ergo the term 'Sammy the Clutch').

Fast-track to today and this subject and I figured I'd see if there was anything on him on youtube. There is a very good film of him against Luther 'Slugger' White and I see exactly what Davey Day was talking about. Watching two edited rounds of that was murder, but I watched it to the edited end. Angott has no jab and no combos. He is very strong and smothers his opponent while holding and hitting and bustling him into the ropes and keeping the fight in close. Good tactically, but I see why he was considered boring. Don't know how he'd get on with a modern referee. Think he'd lose points for constant clinches and use of the head. He has good scalps on his record, but had to be infuriating to fight. Do I think he's top 25? Hell no! I'm far more impressed with Dejesus, Laguna and Buchanan.

[Ezzard]

Thanks for that scartissue. A much appreciated insight.

[Ambling Alp II]

To each his own. I certainly don't find Buchanan and Laguna fascinating to watch.
Angott beat Arizmendi, Pep, and Jenkins. That's what counts.

[Seamus]

And for what it's worth the Associated Press scored the Armstrong v Angott bout 5-4-1 for Angott.

[elmersalsa]

To each his own. I certainly don't find Buchanan and Laguna fascinating to watch.
Angott beat Arizmendi, Pep, and Jenkins. That's what counts.

I respect your taste/opinion, but, Ismael Laguna and Ken Buchanan were exciting to watch for my taste. Fast jabs, good quality boxing. Fantastic fighters in the top 20 lightweights ever

[Senya13]

Let's look at his record. Rocky Kansas was very good

How about comparing his record to that of Sammy Mandell who is only a "honorary mention"? Until his surprising KO of Richie Mitchell Rocky Kansas was considered a second rater, and not the best one. Poor skills, no cleverness, no speed, no punch. Just a rugged brawler. Unlike Mandell who was praised a lot by his contemporaries.

[King Carlos]

Good posts, Scartissue. Laguna in particular is one of my favorite Lightweights to watch. Beautiful stylist.

[elmersalsa]

Let's look at his record. Rocky Kansas was very good

How about comparing his record to that of Sammy Mandell who is only a "honorary mention"? Until his surprising KO of Richie Mitchell Rocky Kansas was considered a second rater, and not the best one. Poor skills, no cleverness, no speed, no punch. Just a rugged brawler. Unlike Mandell who was praised a lot by his contemporaries.

Sammy Mandell was able to compete with welterweight boxers after he lost the lightweight title. A comparison with Rocky Kansas is an interesting one.

I ranked Kansas over Mandell because he had more fights at lightweight. He also had a much consistent win streak than Mandell.

Mandell beat Kansas for the lightweight crown, and beat better opponents like the greats Jimmy McLarnin and Tony Canzoneri. Pretty impressive in the resume. He also had a better record at lightweight.

But, he lost twice to Jimmy Goodrich. Kansas beat Goodrich.

And Kansas doesn't stay behind in his victories. He beat also some very good competition: W10 Johnny Dundee (III), W15 Jimmy Goodrich, W10 Jack Bernstein (III), W12 George "KO" Chaney, W15 Charley White and W15 Lew Tendler among others. He also have a first round KO against Richie Mitchell and a win over Frankie Britt (W10). Is
Is Lew Tendler in the hall of fame? He could be. Kansas lost to the great Benny Leonard in two great fights. Once he lost to Mandell, he fought one more fight, and retired after 15 years in the ring.

Record of Mandell at lightweight: 43-3-3 (28ND), 13 KOs
Record of Kansas at lightweight: 40-9-5 (58ND), 17KOs.
Kansas had over 100 bouts at lightweight, and still, almost dead even, record wise, with Mandell, who had at least 30 less fights than Kansas.

Great comparison between the two. It could be interchangeable. I pick Kansas. Both of them fought in tough eras.

[elmersalsa]

Here is the list of The Top 20 Greatest Lightweight Boxers of All-Time by The Ring Magazine of the September 2001 issue:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Joe Gans
5. Ike Williams
6. Joe Brown
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Bob Montgomery
10. Beau Jack
11. Lou Ambers
12. Freddie Welsh
13. Shane Mosley
14. Henry Armstrong
15. Esteban De Jesus
16. Ken Buchanan
17. Jack McAuliffe
18. Ismael Laguna
19. Ad Wolgast
20. Oscar De La Hoya

[King Carlos]

I don't see how Joe Brown is so high on these lists. Can't see Jack or Montgomery above Ambers, either.

[elmersalsa]

I don't see how Joe Brown is so high on these lists. Can't see Jack or Montgomery above Ambers, either.

The great Joe Brown made 11 world title defenses in 6 years.

The great Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery were two-time lightweight champions and beat terrific opposition in the 1940s Golden Era of the Lightweight class.