Why the Klitschko's can't be considered historically great.

[PredatorHayds]

When he retires Wlad will be going into my Top 10. His reign was splendid. To be undefeated for so long takes skill.
People question his resume but he actually faced everyone of the era.
Heavyweight resumes improve with time. When Lennox Lewis retired the press especially in America didn't rate him highly. I remember the bloke who always had a unlit cigar in his mouth didn't have him in the top 100 fighters of all time. 5 years later on a re-publish he had him in the top 50 (might be wrong with the above fact).

Not all fighters can have a career defining fight.
Louis had Schmelling, Ali had Frazier and Foreman.
Fighters like Wlad, Lennox and Holmes deserve their place due to REIGN length.
Vitali was blighted by injurys but would appear in my top 20 heavys.
Dempsey used to be one of my favourite fighters until I read certain books that talked about how he often fought with loaded gloves.

[Ian1973]

Technically never lost a fight and beat up Lennox Lewis.

I think you'll find technically Vitali lost to Lennox.

Yes but Lewis only won by means of punching Vitali's face into the A&E so it doesn't count.

Cuts are no indication of a boxers ability at all, not even 1/2 per cent.

Anyone who loses on cuts hasn't genuinely lost the contest in my book.

[Ricky_]

Cuts are no indication of a boxers ability at all, not even 1/2 per cent.

Anyone who loses on cuts hasn't genuinely lost the contest in my book.

Just aswell your 'book' has no bearing then. A stoppage is a stoppage regardless of wether the ref stops it or the doctor stopped it.

It's not simly a case of "look vitali has a graze that's bleeding", it was a case of "vitali's face has suffered potentially life changing damage from the punches he took and could lose an eye".

Would the ko be more legit for you if the doc told him to carry on and he lost his eye in the next round?



Look at the fornicating state of that. If you zoom in it looks like part of his eyelid is hanging down over his eyeball.

[Ian1973]

It still doesn't have any indication of the quality of a boxer. Cuts is about the most unsatisfactory way to determine the result of any fight.

[jezzamundo]

I think it's pretty clear that Vitali was the better boxer and probably would have beaten Wlad in any hypothetical matchup, but Wlad has the better resume and the better career - despite the lower lows. To me they are both all time greats, although I certainly wouldn't have either in my all-time top 10, possibly not top 15.

With regards to the Lewis-Vitali fight - it was obviously a legitimate win and the fight should boost the reputation of BOTH fighters. Vitali clearly won round 1, round 2 could almost be a 10-8 with Lewis hurt (had it been the harder punching Wladimir landing those shots, it's likely Lewis would have been KOd). Lewis won round 3 where he caused the cut with a glancing punch. Rounds 4 and 5 were competitive but pretty clearly won by Vitali. Lewis clearly won round 6 and in my opinion had Vitali out on his feet towards the end of the round. A 7th round would have been very interesting, because Lewis had the clearer head (although Vitali seemed to recover well), but was exhausted. It's a moot point though, because the decision to stop the fight was 100% correct. I feel sorry for Vitali that he didn't get his rematch, but I don't blame Lewis for deciding to retire.

[man]

had it been the harder punching Wladimir landing those shots, it's likely Lewis would have been KOd

wlad would fold into a handkerchief
against lennox.

[geronimo]

Cuts are no indication of a boxers ability at all, not even 1/2 per cent.

Anyone who loses on cuts hasn't genuinely lost the contest in my book.

Just aswell your 'book' has no bearing then. A stoppage is a stoppage regardless of wether the ref stops it or the doctor stopped it.

It's not simly a case of "look vitali has a graze that's bleeding", it was a case of "vitali's face has suffered potentially life changing damage from the punches he took and could lose an eye".

Would the ko be more legit for you if the doc told him to carry on and he lost his eye in the next round?



Look at the effing state of that. If you zoom in it looks like part of his eyelid is hanging down over his eyeball.

Look at the state of his face Larry!

[Ricky_]

It still doesn't have any indication of the quality of a boxer. Cuts is about the most unsatisfactory way to determine the result of any fight.

How does it not? He absolutely ripped vitali with one of the most brutal uppercuts you will see in heavtweight boxing which tore his eye to pieces. If it wasn't stopped by a doctor then Vitali would have been so badly injured he would have quit or got knocked out. His eye was a horrendous mess.

[Bricks]

Povetkin and Haye are better than Peter.

Its like saying diarrehea and dystentry are better than gonnorehea

[hurricanemitch14]

I've always thought Vitali is a great heavy.....not Wlad.... The only fight vitali lost a rd was his war with lewis.

[gregor]

The only fight vitali lost a rd was his war with lewis.

Rewatch the first round with Sanders then.

[Badhusker]

I give both brothers the respect of being great in their era. Anyone that can remain on top for years can't be all that bad. It reminds me of Rocky Marciano's problem of not being in an era of great competition. That is something you can't control.

[jezzamundo]

had it been the harder punching Wladimir landing those shots, it's likely Lewis would have been KOd

wlad would fold into a handkerchief
against lennox.

I agree 100%, but that wasn't the point of my reference. Merely saying that if Vitali was blessed with Wlad's punching power, he would have stopped Lewis. Lewis KOs Wlad in the first three rounds IMO.

[Ian1973]

I give both brothers the respect of being great in their era. Anyone that can remain on top for years can't be all that bad. It reminds me of Rocky Marciano's problem of not being in an era of great competition. That is something you can't control.

Have you seen Marciano's resume? Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Harry Matthews, Joe Louis.

That resume is strong as fornicate. Any other suggestion is just nonsense. Marciano is probably number one heavyweight of all time. CERTAINLY top three.

[man]

The only fight vitali lost a rd was his war with lewis.

Rewatch the first round with Sanders then.

plus all others ... it is an underrated fight.

[man]

I agree 100%, but that wasn't the point of my reference. Merely saying that if Vitali was blessed with Wlad's punching power, he would have stopped Lewis.

i think their punching power differs
not by more than 5% ...

[jezzamundo]

I agree 100%, but that wasn't the point of my reference. Merely saying that if Vitali was blessed with Wlad's punching power, he would have stopped Lewis.

i think their punching power differs
not by more than 5% ...

It's hard to put a number on it, but I think the difference is far greater than that. Vitali was a naturally heavy handed guy, but an arm puncher who almost never put his weigh behind shots. Wlad, on the other hand, has always been a huge puncher - Emmanuel Steward rated his punching power as greater than that of Lennox Lewis. Vitali made up for the power deficit with a much stronger jaw, extra height and greater versatility.

[Undefeated49-0]

Truthfully speaking they both can be considered great but that due to just dominance and longevity despite not having anyone of note on their resume's.

True neither of them fought anyone that would have been an elite in any era with the exception of Lewis and Klits lost that one.

[Badhusker]

I give both brothers the respect of being great in their era. Anyone that can remain on top for years can't be all that bad. It reminds me of Rocky Marciano's problem of not being in an era of great competition. That is something you can't control.

Have you seen Marciano's resume? Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Harry Matthews, Joe Louis.

That resume is strong as eff. Any other suggestion is just nonsense. Marciano is probably number one heavyweight of all time. CERTAINLY top three.

Sure he has them on his resume, but the names you mentioned were clearly passed their best, with the exception of Matthews, who I am not familiar with. (a growing number have RJJ's scalp, but it doesn't mean much now) Rocky has a lot of wins, and retired at 32 or 33. If he would have stayed in a while it would have told more about his greatness. At 5'10" and 185-190lbs I can't see him competing effectively with the much larger ATG's at the weight. I would have him at the tail end of the top 10. May be nonsense, but just my opinion.

[Ian1973]

I give both brothers the respect of being great in their era. Anyone that can remain on top for years can't be all that bad. It reminds me of Rocky Marciano's problem of not being in an era of great competition. That is something you can't control.

Have you seen Marciano's resume? Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Harry Matthews, Joe Louis.

That resume is strong as eff. Any other suggestion is just nonsense. Marciano is probably number one heavyweight of all time. CERTAINLY top three.

Sure he has them on his resume, but the names you mentioned were clearly passed their best, with the exception of Matthews, who I am not familiar with. (a growing number have RJJ's scalp, but it doesn't mean much now) Rocky has a lot of wins, and retired at 32 or 33. If he would have stayed in a while it would have told more about his greatness. At 5'10" and 185-190lbs I can't see him competing effectively with the much larger ATG's at the weight. I would have him at the tail end of the top 10. May be nonsense, but just my opinion.

Archie Moore (example) won eleven or twelve fights in a row after Marciano beat him including the world light heavyweight title.

[Badhusker]

Have you seen Marciano's resume? Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Harry Matthews, Joe Louis.

That resume is strong as eff. Any other suggestion is just nonsense. Marciano is probably number one heavyweight of all time. CERTAINLY top three.

Sure he has them on his resume, but the names you mentioned were clearly passed their best, with the exception of Matthews, who I am not familiar with. (a growing number have RJJ's scalp, but it doesn't mean much now) Rocky has a lot of wins, and retired at 32 or 33. If he would have stayed in a while it would have told more about his greatness. At 5'10" and 185-190lbs I can't see him competing effectively with the much larger ATG's at the weight. I would have him at the tail end of the top 10. May be nonsense, but just my opinion.

Archie Moore (example) won eleven or twelve fights in a row after Marciano beat him including the world light heavyweight title.

Come on, man.... You are helping prove my point. Archie Moore, an ATG, but at light heavy. He was 42 or 43 yrs old, and had about ~140 fights when he moved up to fight Rocky. How many of even current-day heavys wouldn't have KO'd or beat the crap out of Moore at that stage in his career? I think Rocky vs Floyd Patterson would have been a good fight, and by far the best win Rocky had. Patterson KO'd Moore easier than Rocky, but would have slightly favored Marciano if they fought.
The old Mongoose was one of the best, but not when he fought Marciano. I had to look him up, but Matthews was also a light heavy, and was also 42 or 43 yrs old. Louis was a heavy, but only a shell of what he was in his prime. Charles was also aging, also a light heavy, and had been beaten 5 times. Still, impressive on the resume I guess.

I forgot to mention Walcott, but he also was at the end of his career, at 37 or 38 yrs old. In the first bout, he beat the hell out of Marciano before getting caught in the 13th or 14th round. Rocky KO'd him early in the second fight.

I'm no boxing historian, but do have enough knowledge to compare some of the greats. The debate between who was the best between Rocky and Ali has been going on for decades, and I've been in that argument before.

[Tony1244]

I think you'll find technically Vitali lost to Lennox.

Yes but Lewis only won by means of punching Vitali's face into the A&E so it doesn't count.

Cuts are no indication of a boxers ability at all, not even 1/2 per cent.

Anyone who loses on cuts hasn't genuinely lost the contest in my book.

If a fight is stopped on cuts, it may be unsatisfying, but the fighter lost genuinely. If you CANNOT continue, it ultimately doesn't matter if the reason is cuts, a twisted ankle, dizzy spells, depression, fatigue, I could go on but you get the point. I also think winning by DQ should count like a KO/TKO because ultimately the fighter couldn't continue, but the later is solely my opinion.

[HomicideHenry]

Alot of people say Vitali was the better brother, and Vladimir was inferior, but if you asked the brothers Vitali would say Vladimir was the superior boxer, and that he was the superior fighter. Different dynamics between the two brothers. Vladimir boxed better, and hit harder. Vitali was more aggressive, and had an iron will and chin. Both were well conditioned, and hard to wear down. It's a toss up, as I think if the two brothers fought eachother 100 times, or even a 1,000 times you would see 50/50 or 60/40 results between them. It's really splitting hairs. Considering how much Vladimir improved over time, whereas his brother was a one trick pony and tougher--- it becomes pretty even. You can't argue with the numbers. Vladimir cranked out alot of defenses in eight years time against a myriad of contenders.

However, I think a Tyson Fury, with all his size and elusiveness and awkwardness, being a switch hitter and fast, would always present issues and problems to either man. Vitali would have been the tougher fight, sure, because his style is more aggressive--- but that doesn't necessarily mean a successful style. We seen what a more precise, fluid boxer (Lewis) could do to him and as much as Vladimir was cut and bruised after the fight with Fury, I think Vitali with his martial arts stance would be open to alot of counters.

[JeanClaude Van Damme]

It's easy to look dominant when you brother is doing the heavy lifting for you.

They avenged each other's losses.

Sad and pathetic.

[tiny_acres]

Sad and pathetic.

You are the real pathetic one. Your just a boxing forum addict

This is comical coming from a guy that joined yesterday and has the highest post count of the day.