52 fight challenge: Week 1: Joe Calzaghe vs Robin Reid

[Horse]

Joe Calzaghe vs Robin Reid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXGOvPQ_R2o

Watch and discuss.

[Horse]

British & Irish boxing 52 fight history knowledge challenge thread: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 9&start=50

[Counter-puncher]

Nice one

I haven't seen since it happened, will watch later and contibute

[davie]

Was just going to fire this on while the lad had his afternoon nap, so I could get peace to assess it properly.
He woke up the second I turned it on.
Maybe get to it tonight.

[JC]

I watched this for the first time a while back, being young and not having had Sky Sports in our house at the time.

I wanted to see if I agreed with the people who said Reid was robbed. I think scored it to Calzaghe by one point.

The thing that stands out most in retrospect is that Calzaghe was seen as a really big puncher that that point in his career. Reid even seems to celebrate making it through the first round without getting hurt.

[Old Jack J]

Will give it a watch this week. Haven't seen it since it happened either. I know I was a Reid fan and was convinced he won it but I was a teenager and may have been a tad biased.

I hold no bias to either now so we will see how I go.

[ElJefe]

Strange fighter, Calzaghe. For some reason I've never been overly impressed watching his fights but at the same time I've had him winning comfortably in the ones that were supposedly close. Probably down to him beating the likes of Hopkins on work rate when I tend to favour clean punching. Will post my scorecard for this fight later.

[mfc_se15]

Didn't have sky in those days and watching it now I realise I've probably only ever seen highlights of the fight before now. Really enjoyed it, was tight but I'd have given it to Calzaghe by 2 points. Not sure how any of the cards were quite as wide as they were. Calzaghe looked a lot smaller than Reid in the ring.

Was this the main event on the night? Was there a particular reason it was in Newcastle?

[PredatorHayds]

Can't wait for this.
I remember I had it close for Calzaghe at the time but ain't watched it since.
Be interesting to see how everyone scores it again and see if after adding up the cards who we decide as winner.

[daviddee]

115 -112 is what I scored it 7 rounds to 5 with the point off. Can see why the 116-111 scorecard was given to Calzaghe is crazy for Reid. I don't see how anyone can give that fight to Reid a few good rounds the fight was mostly Calzaghe great fight though

[Horse]

116-111 Calzaghe.

I gave every close round to Calzaghe, so I feel my scorecard might be a little unfair to Reid.

[Horse]

Why was there no rematch?

[magnus]

At the time I was a fan of both, but felt Calzaghe deserved the win, and was a bit surprised by some of the "robbery" talk that grew over the years.

Haven't watched it since though.

[Counter-puncher]

The thing that stands out most in retrospect is that Calzaghe was seen as a really big puncher that that point in his career. Reid even seems to celebrate making it through the first round without getting hurt.

Before his hands completely went (by age 30 I would say he was punching noticeably more cautiously), and I believe they were pretty much always suspect, he was regarded as pretty dangerous yes. Like my man orb said a long while ago, that Delaney kid he fought for the british looked like hed been run over by a truck, for anyone up to world level he'd be a bit of a banger in his early days, he hurt woodhall every other time he landed it seemed....

The main reason being almost everyone especially in the early days was shocked by his handspeed, which is what made him dangerous early, and when he remembered to mix them to the body he always had good results, after he'd brought the hands up in defence to a quick flurry

[davie]

Calzaghe: 10.10..10..10...9....9..10.10..9...9...10..10 - 116
Reid:......... 9...9....9....9..10..10..10. 8..10..10...9... 9 - 112

Joe in total control early, turning point in the 5th when Robin started finding the lead right hand worryingly easy.
Reports after said Joe hurt his hand in the 5th, I'm not so sure as Robin was catching him but Joe was certainly doing a lot of the shoe shine punches we associate with his later career when he had regular hand issues.

Cracking action in the last 2 rounds and I was perhaps harsh on Reid as he was landing the more solid shots but I thought Joe was otherwise controlling the rounds.

So many fouls in the early and middle rounds from Reid I wouldn't have complained if the ref took another point or two as well.

[Horse]

Calzaghe: 10.10..10..10...9....9..10.10..9...9...10..10 - 116
Reid:......... 9...9....9....9..10..10..10. 8..10..10...9... 9 - 112

Joe in total control early, turning point in the 5th when Robin started finding the lead right hand worryingly easy.
Reports after said Joe hurt his hand in the 5th, I'm not so sure as Robin was catching him but Joe was certainly doing a lot of the shoe shine punches we associate with his later career when he had regular hand issues.

Cracking action in the last 2 rounds and I was perhaps harsh on Reid as he was landing the more solid shots but I thought Joe was otherwise controlling the rounds.

So many fouls in the early and middle rounds from Reid I wouldn't have complained if the ref took another point or two as well.

I scored it the same way, except I gave the 7th to Calzaghe instead of even.

[Counter-puncher]

Davie, on calzaghes hand, I rewatched specifically looking out for it. I would say he did do it in the 5th, earlyish calzaghe would tend to throw a lot of those sort of roundhouse clubbing lefts when he got on top of his man and threw the flurries, I did notice during/after the 5th he seemed to only poke with his left and throw it straight.

Fwiw I had it the same as you bar the 7th which I gave narrowly to Reid so I've got it 115-112 I think. Think you could make a case for Reid in 1 and 11 too.

I found a couple of the tactical shifts by calzaghe interesting. To use a couple of Richie woodhall phrases around rd 6 he stops 'holding his feet' and instead 'adjusts his feet to take the half step back and bring him onto shots' often the short right hook.

Also liked how he was countering Reid with another jab when Reid tried throwing the right hand off calzaghes first jab.

Good fight apart from the mauling. A good reminder of calzaghes many strengths and the odd flaw too.

[Cyclops]

Watched it and scored it without bias as I was a huge Calzaghe fan but I was now able to watch this just as two fighters without having a dog to win. Here's my scores round by round.

Calzaghe - Reid
Rd 1. 10-9
Rd 2. 9-10
Rd 3. 10-9
Rd 4. 10-9
Rd 5. 9-10
Rd 6. 9-10
Rd 7. 10-10
Rd 8. 10-8
Rd 9. 9-10
Rd 10. 9-10
Rd 11. 9-10
Rd 12. 10-10

114-115 Robin Reid

Honestly I had to go back and add up those scores again about five time because there was no way I was purposefully trying to score the fight for Reid that's just my honest scoring as I watched the fight (for a second time as I'd watched it before about 5 years ago and had thought Joe won at the time, although I don't recall my score).

I re-watched the second round because I thought I'd made a mistake scoring it to Reid but I still think he edged it after a second viewing.

The two rounds I scored even (7 and 12) I have marked in my notes that 7 was possibly a Calzaghe round and 12 possibly a Reid, but I found it so hard to split I called it even.

[Cyclops]

Why was there no rematch?

Calzags didn't really do them did he? He only ever re-matched Mario Veit as far as I can remember and he was definitely on record as saying he didn't like rematches. Reid deserved one, as did Hopkins and probably Kessler too.

[davie]

Going over these cards and my own views of the fight, I can see how you could have Calzaghe winning narrow.
Depending on how you scored the closer rounds, you could go wider for Joe or maybe a draw or single point win for Reid at absolute best.
The 116 - 111 card for Reid is flat out wrong, I just can't possibly make the case for that score. With a 10-8 round and a few clear cut rounds for Joe early there's just no conceivable way I could arrive at that score.

Not vintage Joe though and not as dominant as I would have expected over someone like Reid. His defense and movement was lax, particularly around the middle rounds when he started eating those right hands. He improved on it later as counter-puncher pointed out but Reid was still getting through with them when Joe was letting his hands go in those busy last 2 rounds.

[davie]

Watched it and scored it without bias as I was a huge Calzaghe fan but I was now able to watch this just as two fighters without having a dog to win. Here's my scores round by round.

Calzaghe - Reid
Rd 1. 10-9
Rd 2. 9-10
Rd 3. 10-9
Rd 4. 10-9
Rd 5. 9-10
Rd 6. 9-10
Rd 7. 10-10
Rd 8. 10-8
Rd 9. 9-10
Rd 10. 9-10
Rd 11. 9-10
Rd 12. 10-10

114-115 Robin Reid

Honestly I had to go back and add up those scores again about five time because there was no way I was purposefully trying to score the fight for Reid that's just my honest scoring as I watched the fight (for a second time as I'd watched it before about 5 years ago and had thought Joe won at the time, although I don't recall my score).

I re-watched the second round because I thought I'd made a mistake scoring it to Reid but I still think he edged it after a second viewing.

The two rounds I scored even (7 and 12) I have marked in my notes that 7 was possibly a Calzaghe round and 12 possibly a Reid, but I found it so hard to split I called it even.

I'd have to look at it again but I though the 2nd was a solid Calzaghe round and he was in complete control in those first 4. I couldn't even agree with Mcrory giving the first a 10-10, I felt Joe was doing just enough.

[big lennox]

Calzaghe won this fight with one working hand and one broken one. I remember listening to the fight on Radio 5 live and they were in his changing room after the fight and you could hear him screaming with agony as they cut his glove off -his hand was so swollen they couldn't take it off normally.

[davie]

Interesting article from recently abouy the fight, Reids grievances and the rest of his career.

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/ot ... t-10007036

Robin Reid still convinced he beat Joe Calzaghe in Newcastle fight 16 years ago
19:30, 7 SEP 2015UPDATED 20:17, 7 SEP 2015BY JOHN GIBSON
Former world champion relives controversial fight night, as well as other past glories, on eve of his return to Tyneside

Joe Calzaghe retired as an undefeated world champion with 46 consecutive victories to be trumpeted for all time as a global great.

However, Robin Reid believes Calzaghe DID lose his WBO super middleweight crown – to him and right here in Newcastle.

England’s judge Paul Thomas gave a points decision 116-111 to Reid on that fateful night in February of 1999, but Americans Robert Byrd and John Duggan scored it the other way.

Our own Glenn McCrory, sitting ringside for Sky television, made it a draw on his card. A slip of foolscap paper could hardly be wedged between the two warriors.

It was one of three fights Reid had at the Newcastle Arena – he officially won the other two – and as he heads back to the city he gave his version of the controversial scrap between the poster boy of British boxing and the part-time model. Neither of whom liked the other.

Reid had already held the WBC version of the world title and had a chin like a rock which would deny the big-hitting Calzaghe his normal short route to victory.

“Yep, I believe to this day that I won,” Reid told me. “The more I’ve looked at tapes of the fight the more convinced I am. I won by at least two rounds and that includes the point deducted for a low blow.

“However, we were both involved professionally with allegedly which made it a peculiar situation from the very start because Calzaghe was his undefeated champion and therefore must be favoured.

“I was told afterwards to be gracious in defeat so my Press conference quotes reflected that. Then I went home, watched the tape for the first time, and it confirmed that I had won.

“Sure, I got a point deducted for a low blow but we were both as dirty as each other. The only difference was that the referee always seemed to be on my case. I was getting all the blame.”

The only other time Calzaghe was taken to a split decision was against the legendary Bernard Hopkins in his second last fight, though most judges believe that Reid got closest to spoiling that unbeaten record.

So why, given the great British showdown, wasn’t there an automatic return?

“Good question,” smiled Robin. “It ought to have been like George Groves v Carl Froch shouldn’t it? You know, the underdog who almost won getting his just desserts.

“However, it became all about cash.

“Everyone thought I got paid an absolute fortune against Calzaghe, bearing in mind I had been the WBC holder. I really believed I would receive about £100k. It wasn’t as if I was going into that fight as unknown.

“I made three successful defences of my WBC title but I only got paid £75,000 and with all the take-offs for my manager, training camp etc I ended up with £20,000.

“I thought bearing in mind how close the first fight was I would get paid a decent amount for a return, especially when so many people thought I won the first one. We genuinely didn’t like each other and the public love those fights don’t they?

“I was told I would get paid what I was worth, I was told it would be an offer I couldn’t refuse, but it all dragged on for about three to four months. Frank eventually took me out for a big meal at the Savoy Hotel and told me the offer was 90k – that was only 15k more than the first time around. I was flabbergasted.

“All I wanted was to be paid what I was worth. To be honest I thought I was going to be offered £150,000 and I was offered 90k. That’s why the second fight never happened. Shortly afterwards I signed with Jess Harding.”

Reid, a very underestimated world champion, was never afraid to go abroad in search of glory and in an era of super super-middleweights swapped punches on the nose with the likes of Calzaghe, Sven Ottke, Jeff Lacy, Henry Wharton and Carl Froch.

His major breakthrough came in 1996 when Robin travelled into the lion’s den of Milan to challenge local world champion Vincenzo Nardiello.

They used to say a foreigner needed a knockout to get a draw in Italian rings so Reid took no chances. An upset victory came with a TKO in round seven.

“I was a big underdog,” maintained Rob. “I wasn’t given a cat in hell’s chance because I didn’t even have a domestic British belt and though I’d beaten a few Americans there was no one of real note.

“Nigel Benn had lost his WBC crown to Sugar Boy Malinga in Newcastle, who then in turn was defeated by Nardiello in Manchester so this was his big Milan homecoming. However, I had to take my chance when it came whoever and wherever I had to fight. Nardiello was a tricky southpaw but I knew I could beat him. I was full of confidence.”

Reid successfully defended three times, including a big Brit bust-up with Henry Wharton, before relinquishing his beloved title by making what he now calls “the biggest mistake of my life.”

That was to go ahead with a defence against Sugar Boy when clearly desperately out of sorts.

“I had flu and a chest infection and ought to have pulled out of the defence,” he insisted. “I was restricted with what medication I could take, I was coughing up all sorts. However, I was young and brash and thought I could defy any odds.

“I didn’t want to let down 10,000 fans, the promoters, Sky Television, and everyone. What a mug. Calzaghe pulled the plug on many a fight and I should have done the same. My management ought to have insisted but they didn’t and my title had gone.” Reid was to go on and hold both the WBF and IBO versions of the world crown but the WBC strap was the prestigious prize and the one which cemented his place in history.

The Grim Reaper fought twice in Newcastle apart from the hyped showdown with Calzaghe. He knocked out Mark Lee Dawson in the fifth and later returned to take a unanimous points decision off Jesse Brinkley when given only four weeks’ notice of hostilities.

Now a guy who has starred in the films Killer Bitch and Mob Handed since quitting the ring is coming back to the city on Friday when he will be appearing at the Tyne Theatre and Opera House along with boxing heavyweight Joe Egan and Frank Harper, who was in Lock Stock And Two Smoking Barrels, The Football Factory and Bend It Like Beckham.

[digzee]

Reid should have had at least 2 points off in that fight, punching while the ref was in between them (doesn't matter that Reid was talking to his corner), punching low and there was holding and a headbutt I remember. I gave it to Calzaghe by 3 points but going into the last 2 rounds it was very close.

Joe's speed was incredible, I remember when I went to the Kessler fight I had never seen anyone with a double jab as quick, I was in awe.

[banjo]

115-114 for Reid, Joe was hitting Reids gloves and arms so much in that fight.