Top 25 Middleweights of All-Time

[klompton]

He beat great opponents like Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles

Would that be the same Napoles who was a natural lw and only moved up to ww when he was just shy of 30 because he couldnt get a shot at lw or ww? Or do you mean the ex lw napoles who was fighting his first and only fight at mw giving up five inches in height and four inches in reach at the age of 34? Hardly something to brag about for a large mw to beat a small fading ww.

It was a great performance by the great Carlos Monzon. One of the best performances in boxing in the last 50 years

A TON of middleweights could have beaten that Napoles at least as soundly as Monzon did.

[elmersalsa]

Would that be the same Napoles who was a natural lw and only moved up to ww when he was just shy of 30 because he couldnt get a shot at lw or ww? Or do you mean the ex lw napoles who was fighting his first and only fight at mw giving up five inches in height and four inches in reach at the age of 34? Hardly something to brag about for a large mw to beat a small fading ww.

It was a great performance by the great Carlos Monzon. One of the best performances in boxing in the last 50 years

A TON of middleweights could have beaten that Napoles at least as soundly as Monzon did.

Not necessarily. It takes a special champion to beat and dominate a great champion like Jose "Mantequlilla" Napoles

[klompton]

Maybe all things being equal but all things werent equal, in fact napoles had every disadvantage.

[BoxBuzz]

What we need is for Greb and Monzon to step up and quit avoiding each other.

Undeniably, and absolutely and without a shadow of doubt, Monzon would step to Greb's level, and (not unlike a few others,)eek out a win over him.

Borrel Keiser Graves Flowers Gibbons Loughran.....just as examples. Monzon could easily be added to that list.

Winning.....That's what he did.

[klompton]

Greb was head and shoulders better than anyone Monzon ever fought at their best and when Monzon fought the best names on his resume those names werent at their best. Monzon could never duplicate what Greb did because he wasnt as good as Greb even in the weaker era he fought in much less fighting in a tougher era like Grebs across the best of numerous divisions often on the opponents turf unlike Monzon who either fought at home or had his valet officiate on the road or simply ducked his #1. Greb was the guy getting ducked for three yrs unlike Monzon who ducked his #1 for three. Facts are facts.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It was a great performance by the great Carlos Monzon. One of the best performances in boxing in the last 50 years

A TON of middleweights could have beaten that Napoles at least as soundly as Monzon did.

Not necessarily. It takes a special champion to beat and dominate a great champion like Jose "Mantequlilla" Napoles

Napoles never won a round at Middleweight, maybe 1.

[elmersalsa]

It was a masterpiece by the great Argentinian

[klompton]

It was a masterpiece by the great Argentinian

Believe what you want but Monzon got pitched a softball in that fight and if thats what passes as a masterpiece then the bar is truly low. Napoles was shopworn and had never fought anyone at MW much less had any success there and never would.

[elmersalsa]

Talking about the great Carlos Monzon, he by anyone's standards should be the top 160 pounder ever. He had the 20th century record of most title defenses at middleweight with 14. And as a fighter, he didn't lose in his last 81 bouts. That's remarkable. He defended the crown in Europe and made the most of his money there. He only fought once in American soil. But, nevertheless, an extraordinary champion.

See folks, with The Shotgun, it wasn't about speed. It wasn't about strength. It wasn't about punching power. It was not even about footwork. This guy was a thinking man's fighter. One that could outthink the very best boxers of his era. Like the great Larry Bird in the NBA. Bird wasn't the most athletic of basketball players. He wasn't the fastest. He probably wouldn't outjump for the ball against many NBA players. But, like Monzon, Bird can outhink any body in the basketball court. They showed us that although the key of every sport is speed, they knew how to overcome those shortcomings. King Carlos knew about his physical advantages. He knew how to use them very well. He use his reach and height very well. Watch his fights, folks. He knew how to use the ring. His ring generalship and IQ was tops. He knew his limitations. How to pace himself during a fight. And if you want to get dirty with him, he used to get dirtier. He had that look in his face like, he knew for any shadow of a doubt, that you are not gonna beat him. He was utterly confident.

Sometimes, is not about the best talent. It's how to use that talent. And whatever talent he had, he used it very well. And to top all that, the guy was a smoker? Amazing!

[BoxBuzz]

Greb was head and shoulders better than anyone Monzon ever fought at their best and when Monzon fought the best names on his resume those names werent at their best. Monzon could never duplicate what Greb did because he wasnt as good as Greb even in the weaker era he fought in much less fighting in a tougher era like Grebs across the best of numerous divisions often on the opponents turf unlike Monzon who either fought at home or had his valet officiate on the road or simply ducked his #1. Greb was the guy getting ducked for three yrs unlike Monzon who ducked his #1 for three. Facts are facts.

Elmer perhaps can be likened to the clock that is always perfectly in synch either once or twice a day, depending on whether we are talking military or standard time.

And this is clearly his time.

As for Monzon, You can only fight who they put in front of you when they are available. I think Greb would simply be another W on Monzon's record.

And I think it would put Greb's hidden work into better perspective. But that which can not be seen is occult, and thus mysterious, fascinating, and always perhaps "better" than that which is too easily obtainable. And often rendered boring.

Now, I don't expect you to agree with me. As we each are clearly impressed with what we are impressed with.

And you did write a very good book on the subject of Greb....so your investment, and knowledge is not being challenged.

But, I would match your bet, and happily accept the consequences of my betting practice.

Not sure what' I'd do with the money. .........Maybe buy me a Mercury, and cruise up and down the road.

[elmersalsa]

Plus, to add about King Carlos Monzon, he was always relaxed in that ring. He used to make you fight his tempo. No worries inside that ring. He was always in control. You never knew by watching him fight, that he had any worries or him being discouraged. Like nothing can derail him. A cool assassin. I have not seen that in a fighter in my lifetime. Maybe the greats Salvador Sanchez or Eusebio Pedroza come close. He had deep concentration, and like he enjoyed whooping your behind. The longer the fight went, the more pleasure he took by kicking your behind.

[elmersalsa]

It was a masterpiece by the great Argentinian

Believe what you want but Monzon got pitched a softball in that fight and if thats what passes as a masterpiece then the bar is truly low. Napoles was shopworn and had never fought anyone at MW much less had any success there and never would.

Before the fight, many experts believed that the great Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles could've taken The Shotgun. They believed that Mantequilla's speed would befuddle King Carlos. But, Monzon showed that it ain't about speed. It ain't about punching power. It wasn't about finesse or throwing punches in bunches like the great Henry Armstrong. He showed everybody in that fight that he was in a different class. A different plateau. He outthought Napoles. He used perfectly his physical advantages and to top it off, he knew where to position himself while exchanging punches.

This is Carlos Monzon! The greatest middleweight that you could ever see in your lifetime. We are not going to see that kind of boxer again.

[King Carlos]

I have gone back and forth several times over the years with Robinson, Greb, Hagler, and Monzon.

Where I am right now is I have a hard time believing the #1 middleweight of all time could have so much trouble with an ancient Emile Griffith. Benny Briscoe got a draw against him in Argentina.

Hagler had way too much trouble with a past it Duran, Vito Antuefermo, an old Briscoe and lost to Leonard.

It has to be Robinson and Greb.

Robinson lost quite a bit, too.

Monzon took care of Griffith pretty handily in their first fight. The rematch took place right after he'd been shot twice in the leg by his wife and underwent surgery (in addition to his weight making struggles the day of the fight). Wouldn't count it against him too much.

The only fight that Robinson in his prime lost when he was a middleweight was against Turpin. Even then this was after a previous fight 9 days earlier.

That is the problem with Robinson. People keep remembering his fights in his late 30s when he was going to to toe against people like Fullmer.

Griffith was 35 years old by then and Monzon barely beat him.

That was also the only time Robinson was consistently fighting some of the best Middlweights. During his prime he was going on a tour across Europe beating up on the euro-level class.

I already made my point about the Monzon/Griffith rematch, so I won't be redundant.

[klompton]

Greb was head and shoulders better than anyone Monzon ever fought at their best and when Monzon fought the best names on his resume those names werent at their best. Monzon could never duplicate what Greb did because he wasnt as good as Greb even in the weaker era he fought in much less fighting in a tougher era like Grebs across the best of numerous divisions often on the opponents turf unlike Monzon who either fought at home or had his valet officiate on the road or simply ducked his #1. Greb was the guy getting ducked for three yrs unlike Monzon who ducked his #1 for three. Facts are facts.

Elmer perhaps can be likened to the clock that is always perfectly in synch either once or twice a day, depending on whether we are talking military or standard time.

And this is clearly his time.

As for Monzon, You can only fight who they put in front of you when they are available. I think Greb would simply be another W on Monzon's record.

And I think it would put Greb's hidden work into better perspective. But that which can not be seen is occult, and thus mysterious, fascinating, and always perhaps "better" than that which is too easily obtainable. And often rendered boring.

Now, I don't expect you to agree with me. As we each are clearly impressed with what we are impressed with.

And you did write a very good book on the subject of Greb....so your investment, and knowledge is not being challenged.

But, I would match your bet, and happily accept the consequences of my betting practice.

Not sure what' I'd do with the money. .........Maybe buy me a Mercury, and cruise up and down the road.

Care to explain exactly how Monzon is going to beat Greb? Because his size (which was his greatest asset) wouldnt be an issue, Greb beat bigger men. His strength wouldnt be an issue, Greb outmuscles much stronger men. His speed wouldnt be an issue because he wasnt that fast to begin with and Greb was legendarily fast. His stamina wouldnt be an issue because Greb's stamina was considered far and away better than anyone elses in his era and people routinely fought 20 rounds at that time. In fact Greb, more than once, fought 20 rounds, started fast and ended the 20th fighting faster than the first. Monzon's power wouldnt be an issue, his power is overrated and Greb fought much bigger punchers. His skill wouldnt be an issue because Greb fought men who more skilled and bigger to boot. His work rate wouldnt be an issue because Greb had one of the greatest workrates in history. His awkwardness wouldnt be an issue because nobody was awkward as Greb and nobody was better at mapping out a strategy than Greb. Sorry but Greb wasnt Boggs, or Tonna, or Bouttier, or an old balding ex WW Griffith, or a shot party boy Benvenuti, or a guy who lost 30% of his fights at every stage of his career like Briscoe, or a faded natural LW like Napoles, Greb's resume and accomplishments shit all over Monzons, its not even close. He beat more HOFers, had more wins against more top fighters across more divisions. Monzon was largely protected most of his career in Argentina and when he wasnt he made damn sure he either didnt fight, brought his own ref, or fought a bum. Monzon is easily one of the most overrated fighters in history. Like I said before, the gap between how his nuthuggers view him and reality is as wide and long as the grand canyon. Its almost amazing how some people have this bizarre perception of the man that has no basis in fact whatsoever. When the best win of your career is likely Emile Griffith, who was winning only half his fights at the time, or maybe Valdez who you ducked for 3 years and only fought when he mangles his money punching right hand in a car accident (and who himself lost to some pretty average fighters) well, then you dont have a look in.

And one final thing: Monzon record for defenses is horseshit. As far as Im concerned his record stopped when he was stripped for refusing to defend against Valdez.

Hagler had that record, not Monzon. I dont even consider Hagler the greatest MW ever and he would have kicked the living shit out of Monzon. If Monzon was so intimidated by Briscoe and had so much respect for him (which he was very candid about) then what the hell is he going to do against Hagler? Were Vinales, Joe Shaw, De Lima, Rondon, Marshal, Manning, etc as good as Monzon? Because they all beat Briscoe around the two times he fought Monzon as well. Was Jose Chirino as good as Monzon? Because he kicked the shit out of Benvenuti at the same time as the Monzon fights as well. Tom Bethea?? Griffith lost and drew his last two fights before giving Monzon nine kinds of hell to Bouttier and Cohen, were they as good Monzon? Were Bunny Sterling, De Lima, and Juan Carlo Duran as good as Monzon because they all beat Boggs not long before Monzon did. I could keep going but it didnt take the greatest MW in history, or even a legitimate contender in a weak era to beat the guys Monzon supposedly looked great against. Whats he going to do up against Greb, Robinson, Hagler, Hopkins, etc? Hell even Fullmer would run Monzon out of the ring. I wont even get into the HWs and LHWs that Greb defeated who were all time greats. Monzon had plenty of chances to jump into the LHW division where he had the height, reach, and frame to accomodate and knew damn good and well he better stay down south. You brought up Flowers Gibbons and Loughran as if its a shame to lose to those guys (all of whom are in the HOF) but the only guy I would give Monzon a remote chance of beating of those three is Flowers and thats not even a given nevermind that he only beat Greb when he was blind in one eye and had nearly 296 and 299 fights. Then you bring up Keiser Borrell (who also would have a good shot at beat Monzon, if you think Borrell was a bum then you need to go back and do some research because you are showing your ignorance there) Graves as if losing to those guys early in his career meant anything.

I'll take losses to:

A WW title claimant and highly respected fighter, one of the best in the WW division in the world at that time when youve barely been fighting a year.
A top MW contender when you took the fight literally on a moments notice and were about 15 pounds overweight and out of shape for, a guy nearly killed one of the greatest WWs of the era and who was known as a rock hard battler and dynamite puncher
and maybe ND loss, one of something like 9, early on in that guys current hometown

over Aguilar (who Ive seen Im guessing you havent and who was shit)
Cambriero
Massi
and a ridiculous number of draws against nobodies. And again, this is with Monzon fighting on his own turf with his own officials or with him taking his own officials with him. How many times did he actually go on the road and travel to the guys backyard and fight a threatening fight without his valet refereeing? Compare that to Greb who simply asked "how much" and "when do you want me there" sometimes on a moments notice against some of the best fighters in the world. Yeah, no comparison whatsoever.

[klompton]

This is Carlos Monzon! The greatest middleweight that you could ever see in your lifetime. We are not going to see that kind of boxer again.

We saw a better one in Hopkins who would have tied Monzon in knots.

If the greatest MW of my lifetime supposedly turned in his greatest performance against an aging lw who had never come close to MW and never would again then we have different criteria for greatness.

[King Carlos]

I don't really see why Monzon's "valet referee" matters unless these were fights we don't have footage of. We do. The refereeing didn't play a part.

[elmersalsa]

We saw a better one in Hopkins who would have tied Monzon in knots.

If the greatest MW of my lifetime supposedly turned in his greatest performance against an aging lw who had never come close to MW and never would again then we have different criteria for greatness.

Greatness comes in degrees and in different forms. Carlos Monzon not only beat Mantequilla, he completely dominated him. It was different class.

[Seamus]

Napoles was nearly 34 and had done nothing at Middleweight. Don't see where it's some great victory.

[elmersalsa]

We saw a better one in Hopkins who would have tied Monzon in knots.

If the greatest MW of my lifetime supposedly turned in his greatest performance against an aging lw who had never come close to MW and never would again then we have different criteria for greatness.

The great Bernard Hopkins is not Carlos Monzon. Monzon is in a top echelon by himself. He is not even in King Carlos' class!

[BoxBuzz]

To Imagine that Hopkins nonsense would work on Monzon is at least worth considering, before I just sort of laugh it off.

Klompton.....I know you have a lot invested in making Greb out to be great, you have been a tireless researcher and cheerleader for Greb.

But you've lost perspective, and I don't mean that unkindly, though I doubt I'll be forgiven.

Monzon is far far better than what you want to admit, I think you know that, as you churn out your avalanche of words. In fact it may be important to you to keep such greatness down simply to bring Greb the recognition you feel he deserves. So you going after Monzon makes sense to me. In my opinion you produce Much heat, but little light in this matter. Monzon is a good bet to beat both Robinson and Hagler IMHO. I think they would simply be an opportunity for him to show another way to utilize that fantastic chess master mind he had. He treated every opponent he ever faced like a Rubik's Cube and he simply solved the riddle. I seriously doubt Greb would escape being solved. However it might the greatest middleweight clash imaginable. I would appreciate if Greb could....since Monzon was not much of a person....but as a fighting machine, well, he can be observed, and assessed.

You have brought much information to the front regarding a fighter that is a fantastic enigma, with a one of a kind record, but with no way to actually see for ourselves what he brought to the table. But as you illuminate, (and you do a great job of that) you also give in to the temptation to enhance, enlarge, elaborate and if you don't mind...exaggerate.

You make the subject of your endeavor out to be Sort of like Samson, and/or Hercules.....and of course NO ONE could hold a candle to them....except for....(you guessed it) Harry Greb.....

I think Monzon would do quite well in the Greb Era...in fact his bad behavior may have gone unpunished in a time where men were a bit more teflon where being cruel to women was concerned. So he may have been able to remain a free man. I also think he would relish fighting far more often. I think he had that in common with Greb.

I know you FEEL that you have proven that he was without a doubt the best that's ever been. But in my opinion there's simply too much left unseen to be certain.

[Ambling Alp II]

Robinson lost quite a bit, too.

Monzon took care of Griffith pretty handily in their first fight. The rematch took place right after he'd been shot twice in the leg by his wife and underwent surgery (in addition to his weight making struggles the day of the fight). Wouldn't count it against him too much.

The only fight that Robinson in his prime lost when he was a middleweight was against Turpin. Even then this was after a previous fight 9 days earlier.

That is the problem with Robinson. People keep remembering his fights in his late 30s when he was going to to toe against people like Fullmer.

Griffith was 35 years old by then and Monzon barely beat him.

That was also the only time Robinson was consistently fighting some of the best Middlweights. During his prime he was going on a tour across Europe beating up on the euro-level class.

I already made my point about the Monzon/Griffith rematch, so I won't be redundant.

Monzon could have postponed the fight if he really thought it was a problem. As for making weight, that is boxing's ultimate "my dog ate my homework excuse."
The Euro-level class was pretty good at middleweight in the 1940s/early 1950s.
How many top contenders did Monzon beat before winning the title? Big fat zero.
Monzon draws vs legends like Marcos Bustos, Juan Aguilar, and Carlos Salinas. Also was given a draw againt Briscoe in Argentina.
What are all the excuses for these?

[elmersalsa]

Maybe all things being equal but all things werent equal, in fact napoles had every disadvantage.

So did the great Roberto Duran when he challenged Marvelous

So did the great Kid Gavilan when he challenged Bobo Olson for the middleweight crown

So did the great Sugar Ray Leonard when he defeated Marvelous

There's always a disadvantage when your challenging a champion in his class and you just making your first fight at the class. Give the great Carlos Monzon credit. He is the best middleweight ever and a top 20 P4P ATG.

[elmersalsa]

Napoles was nearly 34 and had done nothing at Middleweight. Don't see where it's some great victory.

Mantequilla was the king of the welterweights. Just like the great Mickey Walker, a welterweight, challenged the great Harry Greb for the middleweight crown.

It's a great win for The Human Windmill, but not a great win for The Shotgun?

You cannot have it both ways, klompton. That's a DOUBLE STANDARD.

[Ambling Alp II]

[King Carlos]

The only fight that Robinson in his prime lost when he was a middleweight was against Turpin. Even then this was after a previous fight 9 days earlier.

That is the problem with Robinson. People keep remembering his fights in his late 30s when he was going to to toe against people like Fullmer.

Griffith was 35 years old by then and Monzon barely beat him.

That was also the only time Robinson was consistently fighting some of the best Middlweights. During his prime he was going on a tour across Europe beating up on the euro-level class.

I already made my point about the Monzon/Griffith rematch, so I won't be redundant.

Monzon could have postponed the fight if he really thought it was a problem. As for making weight, that is boxing's ultimate "my dog ate my homework excuse."
The Euro-level class was pretty good at middleweight in the 1940s/early 1950s.
How many top contenders did Monzon beat before winning the title? Big fat zero.
Monzon draws vs legends like Marcos Bustos, Juan Aguilar, and Carlos Salinas. Also was given a draw againt Briscoe in Argentina.
What are all the excuses for these?

Yeah, I'm sure getting shot twice and undergoing 7 hour surgery was no biggie. Having troubles in a 15 round title fight a couple months later is inexcusable. He should've postponed. Instead he fought. He oughta be ashamed.

As for the draws. No excuses....except, of course for the RULE in Argentina during that period which called for automatic draws if the bout was determined to be won by less than 4 points. But hey, excuses are like assholes.