Frazier vs Lewis

[abdelfadeeli]

You could in someways compare Frazier to Tua and Tyson, but that is purely on their physical appearance and style. All men were small fighters, fought from a crouch and worked best inside throwing powerful hooks and uppercuts. But what doesn't show up on the tale of tape is heart, grit, toughness, and determination - none of which Tua or Tyson come close to with Frazier. When Lennox fought Tyson he fought an old, under-trained Mike Tyson who was for all intents and purposes 'fighting for a living.' And Tua was always overrated, he was just a fat Samoan dude with cool hair and could punch really hard!

Both men fell into the trap of fighting behind Lennox's jab, bad move! From here Lennox can dictate pace and also use his superior reach to set up his left hook or monster right hand. Frazier would never stay behind the jab, he would never give in like Tyson and Tua did and he would never stop coming forward. Did you see how gassed Lennox was after 5 rounds with Klitschko? That pace is nothing compared to what Frazier would put on Lennox, he'd have his head on his chest 24/7 drilling lefts and rights to the body for the entire fight, no way Lennox can fight successfully off the back foot and try to keep Joe at bay for the full fight - he didn't have the footwork or stamina for it. He wears Lewis down with his brutal body attack and brutally knocks Lewis out in round 8.

[davie]

You could in someways compare Frazier to Tua and Tyson, but that is purely on their physical appearance and style. All men were small fighters, fought from a crouch and worked best inside throwing powerful hooks and uppercuts. But what doesn't show up on the tale of tape is heart, grit, toughness, and determination - none of which Tua or Tyson come close to with Frazier. When Lennox fought Tyson he fought an old, under-trained Mike Tyson who was for all intents and purposes 'fighting for a living.' And Tua was always overrated, he was just a fat Samoan dude with cool hair and could punch really hard!

Both men fell into the trap of fighting behind Lennox's jab, bad move! From here Lennox can dictate pace and also use his superior reach to set up his left hook or monster right hand. Frazier would never stay behind the jab, he would never give in like Tyson and Tua did and he would never stop coming forward. Did you see how gassed Lennox was after 5 rounds with Klitschko? That pace is nothing compared to what Frazier would put on Lennox, he'd have his head on his chest 24/7 drilling lefts and rights to the body for the entire fight, no way Lennox can fight successfully off the back foot and try to keep Joe at bay for the full fight - he didn't have the footwork or stamina for it. He wears Lewis down with his brutal body attack and brutally knocks Lewis out in round 8.

This is a mistake we see every time someone talks about Lennox. Someone comes on and tells us how he struggled with Vitali, he was nearly 38, past his own prime and not in the very best of shape. He was facing a man who was younger, taller and in his own right an ATG (although perhaps slightly lower down the list than Lennox or Smokin Joe) and still won despite the fact he was blowing a bit and behind on the cards.

Now this is not to say I'm saying a younger fitter Lennox would have walked through Joe, but if we are going to make examples, at very least pick a prime Lewis, he was past it when he fought Vitali, past his best when he fought (an even more past his best) Tyson and probably not 100% prime when he faced Tua in 2000 although I'm maybe stretching it a tad there. His best was once Steward had worked his magic with him after the McCall loss up until probably somewhere around the Tua fight, He was still top class in the latter stages of his career but the workrate certainly seemed to slow a little.

At his best, a fight with Frazier would be a great match up, I think you might be right that Joe might wear him down but it would be one of the hardest challenges of Joes career

[Boxing Writer]

You could in someways compare Frazier to Tua and Tyson, but that is purely on their physical appearance and style. All men were small fighters, fought from a crouch and worked best inside throwing powerful hooks and uppercuts. But what doesn't show up on the tale of tape is heart, grit, toughness, and determination - none of which Tua or Tyson come close to with Frazier. When Lennox fought Tyson he fought an old, under-trained Mike Tyson who was for all intents and purposes 'fighting for a living.' And Tua was always overrated, he was just a fat Samoan dude with cool hair and could punch really hard!

Both men fell into the trap of fighting behind Lennox's jab, bad move! From here Lennox can dictate pace and also use his superior reach to set up his left hook or monster right hand. Frazier would never stay behind the jab, he would never give in like Tyson and Tua did and he would never stop coming forward. Did you see how gassed Lennox was after 5 rounds with Klitschko? That pace is nothing compared to what Frazier would put on Lennox, he'd have his head on his chest 24/7 drilling lefts and rights to the body for the entire fight, no way Lennox can fight successfully off the back foot and try to keep Joe at bay for the full fight - he didn't have the footwork or stamina for it. He wears Lewis down with his brutal body attack and brutally knocks Lewis out in round 8.

This is a mistake we see every time someone talks about Lennox. Someone comes on and tells us how he struggled with Vitali, he was nearly 38, past his own prime and not in the very best of shape. He was facing a man who was younger, taller and in his own right an ATG (although perhaps slightly lower down the list than Lennox or Smokin Joe) and still won despite the fact he was blowing a bit and behind on the cards.

Now this is not to say I'm saying a younger fitter Lennox would have walked through Joe, but if we are going to make examples, at very least pick a prime Lewis, he was past it when he fought Vitali, past his best when he fought (an even more past his best) Tyson and probably not 100% prime when he faced Tua in 2000 although I'm maybe stretching it a tad there. His best was once Steward had worked his magic with him after the McCall loss up until probably somewhere around the Tua fight, He was still top class in the latter stages of his career but the workrate certainly seemed to slow a little.

At his best, a fight with Frazier would be a great match up, I think you might be right that Joe might wear him down but it would be one of the hardest challenges of Joes career

When Lewis was at his 100% prime then? When he went life and death against old, overweight Ray Mercer, who hadn't won a fight in 2,5 years? Or in his lethargic performance against Zelko Mavrovic who never beat anybody decent? Lewis was clearly at his 100% prime when he fought Tua. I think Lewis' two peak performances in his career are 1st Holyfield fight and rematch with Rahman. Lewis himself said multiple times that his second fight with Rahman was his best performance ever. He looked fantastic in every aspect of his game against Rahman (in their second fight) as well as he did in Tua fight (he just didn't want to risk against Tua in a fight he was easily winning on points). Lewis looked MUCH better against Tua then he did against Zelko Mavrovic. Lennox started to look slightly slower when he fought a corpse of Mike Tyson, so I think he passed his physical peak by then, but was still very, very good. I think even against Vitali Lewis (while definitely past it) was closer to his prime than the same aged Holyfield was when he fought Lewis in 1999. Holyfield had incredible amount of wars at 37 unlike Lewis.

[conty22]

You could in someways compare Frazier to Tua and Tyson, but that is purely on their physical appearance and style. All men were small fighters, fought from a crouch and worked best inside throwing powerful hooks and uppercuts. But what doesn't show up on the tale of tape is heart, grit, toughness, and determination - none of which Tua or Tyson come close to with Frazier. When Lennox fought Tyson he fought an old, under-trained Mike Tyson who was for all intents and purposes 'fighting for a living.' And Tua was always overrated, he was just a fat Samoan dude with cool hair and could punch really hard!

Both men fell into the trap of fighting behind Lennox's jab, bad move! From here Lennox can dictate pace and also use his superior reach to set up his left hook or monster right hand. Frazier would never stay behind the jab, he would never give in like Tyson and Tua did and he would never stop coming forward. Did you see how gassed Lennox was after 5 rounds with Klitschko? That pace is nothing compared to what Frazier would put on Lennox, he'd have his head on his chest 24/7 drilling lefts and rights to the body for the entire fight, no way Lennox can fight successfully off the back foot and try to keep Joe at bay for the full fight - he didn't have the footwork or stamina for it. He wears Lewis down with his brutal body attack and brutally knocks Lewis out in round 8.

This is a mistake we see every time someone talks about Lennox. Someone comes on and tells us how he struggled with Vitali, he was nearly 38, past his own prime and not in the very best of shape. He was facing a man who was younger, taller and in his own right an ATG (although perhaps slightly lower down the list than Lennox or Smokin Joe) and still won despite the fact he was blowing a bit and behind on the cards.

Now this is not to say I'm saying a younger fitter Lennox would have walked through Joe, but if we are going to make examples, at very least pick a prime Lewis, he was past it when he fought Vitali, past his best when he fought (an even more past his best) Tyson and probably not 100% prime when he faced Tua in 2000 although I'm maybe stretching it a tad there. His best was once Steward had worked his magic with him after the McCall loss up until probably somewhere around the Tua fight, He was still top class in the latter stages of his career but the workrate certainly seemed to slow a little.

At his best, a fight with Frazier would be a great match up, I think you might be right that Joe might wear him down but it would be one of the hardest challenges of Joes career

When Lewis was at his 100% prime then? When he went life and death against old, overweight Ray Mercer, who hadn't won a fight in 2,5 years? Or in his lethargic performance against Zelko Mavrovic who never beat anybody decent? Lewis was clearly at his 100% prime when he fought Tua. I think Lewis' two peak performances in his career are 1st Holyfield fight and rematch with Rahman. Lewis himself said multiple times that his second fight with Rahman was his best performance ever. He looked fantastic in every aspect of his game against Rahman (in their second fight) as well as he did in Tua fight (he just didn't want to risk against Tua in a fight he was easily winning on points). Lewis looked MUCH better against Tua then he did against Zelko Mavrovic. Lennox started to look slightly slower when he fought a corpse of Mike Tyson, so I think he passed his physical peak by then, but was still very, very good. I think even against Vitali Lewis (while definitely past it) was closer to his prime than the same aged Holyfield was when he fought Lewis in 1999. Holyfield had incredible amount of wars at 37 unlike Lewis.

Lewis was terrible against Vitali and he still won ROFL . It was not the best version of Lewis . Vitali was never better after this fight , he got much slower.

[Tuan_Jim]

Frazier's pace & power would petrify Lewis. It would be like fighting a fit David Tua, with two arms, a brain, and who is trying to kill him.

[Bricks]

he fought an old, under-trained Mike Tyson who was for all intents and purposes 'fighting for a living.'

Fighting 2-3 rounds for a living........if they didnt stop fighting back after that he quit

Frazier at his peak was a far faster more offensive ,powerful fighter than tua.
He may not have had much of a right but he beat ali andxhe will knock out lewis around 7-8

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Comparing Tua and old Tyson to Frazier is like comparing Lewis to Don Smith. Frazier by late stoppage, Lennox couldn't meet that work rate and Joe was overwhelming in close where Lennox was at his worst.

[Rexob]

Easy Lewis victory! playing with Frazier then Knocking him out.

[Tuan_Jim]

Easy Lewis victory! playing with Frazier then Knocking him out.

Playing with Joe Frazier? Unreal. Utterly unreal.

Lewis couldn't even play with a fatted 36 year old Mike Tyson.

[Boxing Writer]

Easy Lewis victory! playing with Frazier then Knocking him out.

Playing with Joe Frazier? Unreal. Utterly unreal.

Lewis couldn't even play with a fatted 36 year old Mike Tyson.

...or Zelko Mavrovic, or Shannon Briggs.

[Boxing Writer]

Easy Lewis victory! playing with Frazier then Knocking him out.

Do you remember what happened when Lewis tried to play with Hasim Rahman? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inehc0s0rDs

[BoxBuzz]

Easy Lewis victory! playing with Frazier then Knocking him out.

Do you remember what happened when Lewis tried to play with Hasim Rahman? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inehc0s0rDs

Ah yes, a memorable play date it was.

[davie]

Easy Lewis victory! playing with Frazier then Knocking him out.

Do you remember what happened when Lewis tried to play with Hasim Rahman? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inehc0s0rDs

As long as we're posting Youtube videos, does anyone think a 6'5" 245lb prime Lewis could display the power and accuracy to play with Joe the way a 6'3" 217lb Foreman did?

https://youtu.be/EtacibssAPg

[davie]

You could in someways compare Frazier to Tua and Tyson, but that is purely on their physical appearance and style. All men were small fighters, fought from a crouch and worked best inside throwing powerful hooks and uppercuts. But what doesn't show up on the tale of tape is heart, grit, toughness, and determination - none of which Tua or Tyson come close to with Frazier. When Lennox fought Tyson he fought an old, under-trained Mike Tyson who was for all intents and purposes 'fighting for a living.' And Tua was always overrated, he was just a fat Samoan dude with cool hair and could punch really hard!

Both men fell into the trap of fighting behind Lennox's jab, bad move! From here Lennox can dictate pace and also use his superior reach to set up his left hook or monster right hand. Frazier would never stay behind the jab, he would never give in like Tyson and Tua did and he would never stop coming forward. Did you see how gassed Lennox was after 5 rounds with Klitschko? That pace is nothing compared to what Frazier would put on Lennox, he'd have his head on his chest 24/7 drilling lefts and rights to the body for the entire fight, no way Lennox can fight successfully off the back foot and try to keep Joe at bay for the full fight - he didn't have the footwork or stamina for it. He wears Lewis down with his brutal body attack and brutally knocks Lewis out in round 8.

This is a mistake we see every time someone talks about Lennox. Someone comes on and tells us how he struggled with Vitali, he was nearly 38, past his own prime and not in the very best of shape. He was facing a man who was younger, taller and in his own right an ATG (although perhaps slightly lower down the list than Lennox or Smokin Joe) and still won despite the fact he was blowing a bit and behind on the cards.

Now this is not to say I'm saying a younger fitter Lennox would have walked through Joe, but if we are going to make examples, at very least pick a prime Lewis, he was past it when he fought Vitali, past his best when he fought (an even more past his best) Tyson and probably not 100% prime when he faced Tua in 2000 although I'm maybe stretching it a tad there. His best was once Steward had worked his magic with him after the McCall loss up until probably somewhere around the Tua fight, He was still top class in the latter stages of his career but the workrate certainly seemed to slow a little.

At his best, a fight with Frazier would be a great match up, I think you might be right that Joe might wear him down but it would be one of the hardest challenges of Joes career

When Lewis was at his 100% prime then? When he went life and death against old, overweight Ray Mercer, who hadn't won a fight in 2,5 years? Or in his lethargic performance against Zelko Mavrovic who never beat anybody decent? Lewis was clearly at his 100% prime when he fought Tua. I think Lewis' two peak performances in his career are 1st Holyfield fight and rematch with Rahman. Lewis himself said multiple times that his second fight with Rahman was his best performance ever. He looked fantastic in every aspect of his game against Rahman (in their second fight) as well as he did in Tua fight (he just didn't want to risk against Tua in a fight he was easily winning on points). Lewis looked MUCH better against Tua then he did against Zelko Mavrovic. Lennox started to look slightly slower when he fought a corpse of Mike Tyson, so I think he passed his physical peak by then, but was still very, very good. I think even against Vitali Lewis (while definitely past it) was closer to his prime than the same aged Holyfield was when he fought Lewis in 1999. Holyfield had incredible amount of wars at 37 unlike Lewis.

Evidence, if ever it were needed, that us forum goers could start an argument in an empty room.
I had basically corrected myself when I mentioned Tua, saying I was perhaps stretching it a bit going that far back.
The point I was trying to make was Lewis was slowing towards the latter stages of his career and the fights given in the original post, Tyson and Klitschko, were perfect examples of that. Yet he was still great even then.
What i mean by "prime" was really peak physical condition as Lewis was at his best fairly late in his career. He was a man who learned in the fight game as he gained experience IMO.
Bearing in mind when he fought Mercer he was 32 and 33 when he faced Mavrovic. That's the period when he was at his very best.
Was he at his best against those 2? Clearly not but I don't put it down to that not being the best period of his career. Fighter can have off nights for a variety of reasons, complacency and lack of focus against guys you should destroy for instance. I'd have to watch those fights as I haven't seen the Mercer bouts in years and don't remember if I've ever seen Mavrovic but I reckon Lewis was more likely off the boil than it being down to him being not in his prime years.

Now of course, against Joe, he couldn't have an off night but lets be honest, he isn't going to show the complacency he might against a Mercer, a McCall, a Mavrovic or a Rahman if he was fighting a fired up Frazier. He'd be focused, well prepared and trained to 100%.
In that condition, I think it's a very interesting fight and as I said, I'd lean towards Joe.
Smaller men who could get inside showed they could hurt Lewis during his career. Does Joe have the power to do that, possibly? probably. Joe could wear an opponent down too, now I don't remember seeing anyone break Lewis up the way Joe could but then Lennox never faced a machine like Frazier so it's hard to say.

But on the flip side, Foremam showed what a big powerful accurate puncher could do against Joe and if he could keep him at distance and drop some bombs I wouldn't write Lewis off

[Tuan_Jim]

Easy Lewis victory! playing with Frazier then Knocking him out.

Do you remember what happened when Lewis tried to play with Hasim Rahman? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inehc0s0rDs

As long as we're posting Youtube videos, does anyone think a 6'5" 245lb prime Lewis could display the power and accuracy to play with Joe the way a 6'3" 217lb Foreman did?

https://youtu.be/EtacibssAPg

Foreman had the steel chin required to mix it up with and manhandle bangers. Lewis didn't. And Foreman certainly didn't 'play' with Frazier.

[Ezzard]

Lewis could land early and close the show. He had the ability. But by round 3 Frazier starts the process of grinding him down. That's how I see it.

[Boxing Writer]

Easy Lewis victory! playing with Frazier then Knocking him out.

Do you remember what happened when Lewis tried to play with Hasim Rahman? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inehc0s0rDs

As long as we're posting Youtube videos, does anyone think a 6'5" 245lb prime Lewis could display the power and accuracy to play with Joe the way a 6'3" 217lb Foreman did?

https://youtu.be/EtacibssAPg

Foreman had the chin to took Frazier's punches, Lewis didn't. And Foreman definitely didn't play with Smoking Joe. Plus there is a huge difference between their styles - Lewis style was never as effective against swarmers as Foreman's one was. Not even close.

[elmersalsa]

This is a fight of an overrated boxer that didn't had nothing to be awed about against one of the most important champions of the 20th century.

I can't see in my wildest dreams, a Lennox Lewis victory. No matter how I tried to look at it.

[ElJefe]

Worth remembering that Lewis was from a new generation of super heavyweights. A prime Lennox Lewis would have been something like 35lbs heavier than Joe Frazier, not to mention an 11" reach and 6" height advantage. Not saying that alone would be enough to win the fight, but in terms of size it wouldn't look too dissimilar to Lennox fighting someone like Lebedev or Glowacki. Whether Lennox would win or not, the size difference would have been a major factor no matter how the fight played out.

[Tuan_Jim]

I know what you mean ElJefe but size isn't everything. Lewis fought a 5'10'' man in Lionel Butler, who took less than 10 seconds to whack Lewis on the head with a looping overhand right. David Tua, a 5'10'' man, was repeatedly within a whisker of a landing a bomb. Both Butler and Tua were from the new generation of slobbish, grossly overweight heavyweights. Frazier had the same punch power but was in outstanding physical condition, while Lewis, as we saw versus Butler and Tua, and an old fat Tyson, was extremely wary of short fighters. He looked awful versus Ocasio and Billups too, both of whom tagged him.

People in fights like this rattle off Lewis's size dimensions to make him sound like some unbeatable colossus who would leap on a smaller fighter like Frazier, when the truth is he wasn't even willing to leap on fat men like Butler and Tua and Tyson.

[keithmoonhangover]

Foreman certainly didn't 'play' with Frazier.

No, he completely destroyed him and would have beaten Frazier at any time of his career.

[keithmoonhangover]

This is a fight of an overrated boxer that didn't had nothing to be awed about against one of the most important champions of the 20th century.

I can't see in my wildest dreams, a Lennox Lewis victory. No matter how I tried to look at it.

That's because you're completely biased towards Frazier, who you think could not be beaten by any heavyweight ever.

[Tomasino]

Worth remembering that Lewis was from a new generation of super heavyweights. A prime Lennox Lewis would have been something like 35lbs heavier than Joe Frazier, not to mention an 11" reach and 6" height advantage. Not saying that alone would be enough to win the fight, but in terms of size it wouldn't look too dissimilar to Lennox fighting someone like Lebedev or Glowacki. Whether Lennox would win or not, the size difference would have been a major factor no matter how the fight played out.

Yes, the new genetic supermen, the so called 'super heaveyweights' have been nothing short of awesome since their arrival on earth

[ElJefe]

Worth remembering that Lewis was from a new generation of super heavyweights. A prime Lennox Lewis would have been something like 35lbs heavier than Joe Frazier, not to mention an 11" reach and 6" height advantage. Not saying that alone would be enough to win the fight, but in terms of size it wouldn't look too dissimilar to Lennox fighting someone like Lebedev or Glowacki. Whether Lennox would win or not, the size difference would have been a major factor no matter how the fight played out.

Yes, the new genetic supermen, the so called 'super heaveyweights' have been nothing short of awesome since their arrival on earth

Did I say that? Idiot.

[Tomasino]

Worth remembering that Lewis was from a new generation of super heavyweights. A prime Lennox Lewis would have been something like 35lbs heavier than Joe Frazier, not to mention an 11" reach and 6" height advantage. Not saying that alone would be enough to win the fight, but in terms of size it wouldn't look too dissimilar to Lennox fighting someone like Lebedev or Glowacki. Whether Lennox would win or not, the size difference would have been a major factor no matter how the fight played out.

Yes, the new genetic supermen, the so called 'super heaveyweights' have been nothing short of awesome since their arrival on earth

Did I say that? Idiot.

Pretty much. New generation of super heavyweights.