Wladimir & Vitali Klitschko: Are They All-Time Greats

[elmersalsa]

I was looking at these brothers records and I am trying to see your views on them. Are the Klitschkos brothers all-time greats in your book?

Where would you rank them at ATG Top 20 heavyweights?

Where would you rank them ATG top 100 p4p?

Wlad made 18 title defenses at heavyweight. His brother was at par with him reigning for a long period of time.

Should they get any love from the posters?

I will try to see if I could debate in their favor. Let's debate with class and order, please!

[Tuan_Jim]

Not a single Great victory between them, so it's hard to make a case.

And are you including in those 18 defences Wlad's WBO second division days? So Wlad gets impressive sounding numbers that, when scrutinised, are revealed to be ham & eggers like Shufford, Jefferson, McCline and the mortal remains of Botha, Mercer and Sanders?

I'm interested to see whether those championing the Klits can do so without resorting to statistics.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Wlad was a longtime champion, that's enough to get him at least an historical mention. He might make my top 30.

Vitali is pretty much a footnote, top 40 or 50.

Neither would make my top 300 p4p.

Vitali was a tough guy who came to fight, you can give him 'love' for that.

Wlad was exciting early on, then he became a giant hugging bear that reluctantly handled midgets and old men with a delicate touch. No love there.

[Jaywheel]

Careful what you answer people. This is how elmer labels greatness. From now on it could be the great vitali and the great wlad everytime he writes their name, which isn't annoying at all, especially when talking about greats like pryor and taylor and now the klit bros.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Careful what you answer people. This is how elmer labels greatness. From now on it could be the great vitali and the great wlad everytime he writes their name, which isn't annoying at all, especially when talking about greats like pryor and taylor and now the klit bros.

If I was a moderator I'd auto pop that every time he types DelaHoya it says the great.

[BoxBuzz]

Along with Carnera, they are indeed "All time great bigs"

And Elmer...Tyson Fury just beat Wlad......seriously...doesn't that tell you all you need to know?

And yes...Twysun Furry is one of the "All time great bigs" as well.

[SenorPipino]

No, they never had a great rival.

No Frazier to Ali, or Tyson to Holyfield.

Very good, very competent fighters, but they never competed against any ATGs, except for Vitali's aborted shot at Lewis, which he lost.

That's not to say they couldn't give quite a few great heavies a difficult night. But they never actually proved their worth against the elite.

But BoxBuzz shouldn't diminish Wlad just because he dropped the title to the mediocre Fury.
Hell, Wlad is practically 40 and obvioulsy nearing the end.

You don't ridicule Ali because he dropped a decision to Berbick at 39, or call Frazier a slug because he waddled to a draw at 37 against Jumbo Cummings.

[Tuan_Jim]

You don't ridicule Ali because he dropped a decision to Berbick at 39, or call Frazier a slug because he waddled to a draw at 37 against Jumbo Cummings.

Any chance Ali and Frazier had slightly more physically taxing careers than Wladimir?

[PredatorHayds]

I'd rate Wlad over Vitali.

Don't like to judge active fighters til they retire so I will reserve judgement on Wlad until retirement.

Vitali I'd have in my top 20 post war heavyweights but definetly not top 10. Probably in the high teens.

[Bricks]

Never been a fan of them.but its very hard to judge either.

You"re basing judgememt on beating either out of shape oversized nobodies or old worn out men.

Wlad in his pre steward younger days lost 3 times to average "traditional heavyweight" sized guys like brewster,sanders,purrity and almost got knocked out by williamson.all average unexceptional hw"s . In terms of who he beat ....byrd is probbly the best....and he avoided a still useful rahman and toney .

Vitali is easier to judge...beaten by a ageing lewis is a decent barometer.also avoided rahman and toney.struggled to stop a mid 90s relic like briggs.

All this said....i still rate them top 27-30 hw"s .....its hard to know for sure if 80s guys like buster douglas,biggs,damiani ,bruno,ruddock,mason and smith would have beaten them....i suspect many of them yes.

[gilgamesh]

I think so

[BoxBuzz]

No, they never had a great rival.

No Frazier to Ali, or Tyson to Holyfield.

Very good, very competent fighters, but they never competed against any ATGs, except for Vitali's aborted shot at Lewis, which he lost.

That's not to say they couldn't give quite a few great heavies a difficult night. But they never actually proved their worth against the elite.

But BoxBuzz shouldn't diminish Wlad just because he dropped the title to the mediocre Fury.
Hell, Wlad is practically 40 and obvioulsy nearing the end.

You don't ridicule Ali because he dropped a decision to Berbick at 39, or call Frazier a slug because he waddled to a draw at 37 against Jumbo Cummings.

Fair enough, I'm just not a big Wlad fan, but I'd forgotten about his age. And he did fight everyone put in front of him, lost a few along the way, came back from some down times. He can't be blamed for the division having no talent. Did he ever avoid anyone? I can't think of anyone really worth avoiding during his tenure. So yeah, I can walk my remarks back a bit. Just not too far.

[davie]

I'd rate Wlad over Vitali.

For me Vitali beats Wlad
But Wlad has the stronger record and greater legacy IMO

[Freedom2013]

Wladimir is an ATG, Vitali is not.

Wladimir is about #6, Vitali is about #18 or so.

Vitali had the physical ability to become an ATG, but boxing was never the main priority for him.

[Tuan_Jim]

Wladimir is an ATG, Vitali is not.

Wladimir is about #6, Vitali is about #18 or so.

Vitali had the physical ability to become an ATG, but boxing was never the main priority for him.

Who did Wlad beat to make it to your #6?

Can anyone clarify to me exactly what Wladimir Klitschko's single defining victory is?

[Boxerbeetle]

Wladimir is an ATG, Vitali is not.

Wladimir is about #6, Vitali is about #18 or so.

I'd be very interested to hear your Top 20?

[davie]

Wladimir is an ATG, Vitali is not.

Wladimir is about #6, Vitali is about #18 or so.

Vitali had the physical ability to become an ATG, but boxing was never the main priority for him.

Who did Wlad beat to make it to your #6?

Can anyone clarify to me exactly what Wladimir Klitschko's single defining victory is?

Who are the career defining victories for Rocky Marciano or Larry Holmes? They beat really big names when they were over the hill and some legendary light heavy weights.

Some fighters exist in weak eras relative to others. But when they are as dominant as Rocky, Larry and Wlad were in their respective eras they are rated. Perhaps not in the same way as a fighter who shared an era with other ATG's but still would everyone here agree the about 3 names deserve to be othersy

Wlad beat everyone who was anyone for a decade. He beat several fighters who were the consensus no1 contender in the division.
I wouldn't have him at 6 personally but he's not a million miles away

[Tomasino]

Wladimir is an ATG, Vitali is not.

Wladimir is about #6, Vitali is about #18 or so.

Vitali had the physical ability to become an ATG, but boxing was never the main priority for him.

Who did Wlad beat to make it to your #6?

Can anyone clarify to me exactly what Wladimir Klitschko's single defining victory is?

Who are the career defining victories for Rocky Marciano or Larry Holmes? They beat really big names when they were over the hill and some legendary light heavy weights.

Some fighters exist in weak eras relative to others. But when they are as dominant as Rocky, Larry and Wlad were in their respective eras they are rated. Perhaps not in the same way as a fighter who shared an era with other ATG's but still would everyone here agree the about 3 names deserve to be othersy

Wlad beat everyone who was anyone for a decade. He beat several fighters who were the consensus no1 contender in the division.
I wouldn't have him at 6 personally but he's not a million miles away

The crux for me isn't stats it's watching the brothers in action. Wlad is terrified in the ring and it shows in his fighting. He's not close to the top 10. Watching Larry and Rocky, you can see they are great fighters. Wlad would have been retired years ago if he hadn't been allowed to clutch his way to victory.

[Tuan_Jim]

Wladimir is an ATG, Vitali is not.

Wladimir is about #6, Vitali is about #18 or so.

Vitali had the physical ability to become an ATG, but boxing was never the main priority for him.

Who did Wlad beat to make it to your #6?

Can anyone clarify to me exactly what Wladimir Klitschko's single defining victory is?

Who are the career defining victories for Rocky Marciano or Larry Holmes? They beat really big names when they were over the hill and some legendary light heavy weights.

Some fighters exist in weak eras relative to others. But when they are as dominant as Rocky, Larry and Wlad were in their respective eras they are rated. Perhaps not in the same way as a fighter who shared an era with other ATG's but still would everyone here agree the about 3 names deserve to be othersy

Wlad beat everyone who was anyone for a decade. He beat several fighters who were the consensus no1 contender in the division.
I wouldn't have him at 6 personally but he's not a million miles away

You've got an up hill battle if you're comparing Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe, Ken Norton et al with Tony Thompson and the lads. Archie Moore forgot more about boxing than any Wladimir Klitschko opponent any of us can name. Also, Rocky and Larry demonstrated greatness in the ring. When they were down or in peril, they pulled victory out the bag. Wladimir simply fell apart and went into convulsions. How can you trust that guy's chin and heart against any serious fighter in history?

[Tuan_Jim]

The crux for me isn't stats it's watching the brothers in action. Wlad is terrified in the ring and it shows in his fighting. He's not close to the top 10. Watching Larry and Rocky, you can see they are great fighters. Wlad would have been retired years ago if he hadn't been allowed to clutch his way to victory.

I still want to know whether Wladimir Klitschko can beat Alex Povetkin in an actual boxing match.

[Tomasino]

The crux for me isn't stats it's watching the brothers in action. Wlad is terrified in the ring and it shows in his fighting. He's not close to the top 10. Watching Larry and Rocky, you can see they are great fighters. Wlad would have been retired years ago if he hadn't been allowed to clutch his way to victory.

I still want to know whether Wladimir Klitschko can beat Alex Povetkin in an actual boxing match.

We will never know.

Did the judges score Wlads 'hand slaps' against Ibragimov? For I do not recall another form of attack used. I was in utter shock at that fight.

[Tuan_Jim]

The crux for me isn't stats it's watching the brothers in action. Wlad is terrified in the ring and it shows in his fighting. He's not close to the top 10. Watching Larry and Rocky, you can see they are great fighters. Wlad would have been retired years ago if he hadn't been allowed to clutch his way to victory.

I still want to know whether Wladimir Klitschko can beat Alex Povetkin in an actual boxing match.

We will never know.

Did the judges score Wlads 'hand slaps' against Ibragimov? For I do not recall another form of attack used. I was in utter shock at that fight.

That's the one where the veteran Bert Sugar said afterwards that Primo Carnera would certainly beat both of them. Did Wlad dare throw a single right hand that night?

[Tomasino]

I still want to know whether Wladimir Klitschko can beat Alex Povetkin in an actual boxing match.

We will never know.

Did the judges score Wlads 'hand slaps' against Ibragimov? For I do not recall another form of attack used. I was in utter shock at that fight.

That's the one where the veteran Bert Sugar said afterwards that Primo Carnera would certainly beat both of them. Did Wlad dare throw a single right hand that night?

Although the opening for it was there almost every second of the way, he did not throw it. I had been looking forward to the fight and literally could not believe what I saw. The look of terror on Wlads face throughout was awful. I couldn't work out why he was like that because Ibragimov didn't hit him. It really left me wondering wtf had happened to heavyweight boxing.

[Syntax Error]

I've wavered with these two: sometimes I think they are & sometimes not.

I've since come to the conclusion that Vitali is not & Wladimir might just sneak that status, but only just, simply because he was the dominant guy of his era.

Yes, his oppostion wasn't great, but he could only fight who was around at the time, so I can't truly hold that against him.

He didn't duck anybody & he was head & shoulders above his compatriots, even if his fights & his style were pretty dull.

[Ezzard]

I appreciate comments from fellow posters and I respect their opinions. But I don’t really feel the same antipathy for the Klits.

They didn’t gorge themselves on McDonalds and cocaine like the 80s HWs. Unlike 80% of those guys these chaps actually respected the title and its significance. They always came into the ring properly trained.

They don’t do all that childish trash talk (Ali could do it because he was actually witty) that’s so prevalent and so clichéd.

I have to say that they haven’t ducked anyone either. There’s nobody missing from their era.

Tuan is right; you can’t compare Tony Thompson with the Nortons and the Witherspoons. But you can compare him with the Tony Tubbs and David Bey types.

And size is a factor too. Without their huge size advantages I’d pick many of the old champs over Lewis and Bowe.

I don’t like the way the Klits loaded the dice in their favour but that’s big time sports these days. I don’t like the hit and hug tactics. The blind refs etc…

But leaving no names behind is significant for me.

I also like the German promotions. They seem more civilised to me.

And I’ll admit Wlad’s vulnerability means that I find his fights exciting even if there’s little action. You know he can be stopped if caught.

Anyway, back to the question… ATG? I guess so. In a head to head they would be a hard fight for almost anyone.