Wladimir & Vitali Klitschko: Are They All-Time Greats

[Tuan_Jim]

It's interesting how many people have said they didn't duck anybody.

Wladimir never wanted to fight Ross Puritty again. He never wanted to fight Corrie Sanders again. And in 2006, when he was given the option of rematching either the waning Byrd and the Brewster who was still breaking heads - he chose Byrd! And he only rematched Brewster once the man had lost, was off 18 months and medically retired in the States!!

How do you reconcile all of that with the idea he didn't duck anybody? And my god, when he fought someone with even the glimmer of an intent to time & counter him - Ibragimov, Haye, Fury - he was utterly petrified to the point of being unwatchable. And then there's the 300+ holds initiated v Pov.

Obviously it's fairly well known that I don't like either one much, so I suppose my view is going to sound biased. But I would be interested to hear the views from the people who do rate them, especially Wlad, and what they make of the above thoughts.

[Ezzard]

I guess that's fair comment. But they did fight once which is better than never. So it's not strictly the same thing... But I accept the sentiment.

Wlad was better once Steward worked with him. I think he'd have won those rematches but he didn't take them so we'll never know.

The Povetkin fight was awful. I rate Pov. I think he'd have been a worthy contender in any era.

[Ambling Alp II]

It's interesting how many people have said they didn't duck anybody.

Wladimir never wanted to fight Ross Puritty again. He never wanted to fight Corrie Sanders again. And in 2006, when he was given the option of rematching either the waning Byrd and the Brewster who was still breaking heads - he chose Byrd! And he only rematched Brewster once the man had lost, was off 18 months and medically retired in the States!!

How do you reconcile all of that with the idea he didn't duck anybody? And my god, when he fought someone with even the glimmer of an intent to time & counter him - Ibragimov, Haye, Fury - he was utterly petrified to the point of being unwatchable. And then there's the 300+ holds initiated v Pov.

Obviously it's fairly well known that I don't like either one much, so I suppose my view is going to sound biased. But I would be interested to hear the views from the people who do rate them, especially Wlad, and what they make of the above thoughts.

He also had about 4 years to fight Lennox Lewis.

[Freedom2013]

He also had about 4 years to fight Lennox Lewis.

Wlad called out Lewis after nearly every fight from 2000 to 2002, but Lennox avoided him.

Who did Wlad beat to make it to your #6?

Can anyone clarify to me exactly what Wladimir Klitschko's single defining victory is?

Your hero Floyd Mayweather never beat a prime elite opponent either. Floyd waited until they were past prime.

Wlad beat MANY very good fighters in their prime (Peter I, Ibragimov, Chagaev, Povetkin, Byrd I, Haye, McCline, Chambers, Pulev, etc) and he never avoided anyone. There isn't just one that stands out.

[Bodyshot3]

I am in danger of repeating myself from other threads....

....but the K brothers always produce a great debate and personally I still remain more than a bit perplexed as to where they actually fit in when it comes to their heayweight legacy.

Right now, I am more inclined to the view that they were primarily 'effective' rather 'outstanding' and that some extremely good/rigorous management enabled them to keep hold of the titles for a considerable period of time.

The last point should not be sniffed at. The brothers nearly always defended their titles on completely their own terms; the location, timing and build-up to the fight were incredibly tightly choereographed. So too was when an opponent was selected.

All those huge German stadium fights created heaps of pressure on opponents from the moment they arrived at the airport.

It was the kind of efficient and comprehensive career management that boxing has not seen before. I really don't think it was any accident that the Fury team went right after this when they fought Wlad; for example challenging the design/fit of glove and the firmness of the ring.

I don't want to pigeon-hole the brothers as German Management machines because as someone rightly said - they lived clean, trained hard and from a boxing perspective they played to their strengths and invariably get their tactics right as well.

They were intelligent and hugely disciplined guys and true professionals in the way that many other Heavweights with more talent/style than them were not.

At present both of them appear in my Top 20 Heavyweight list but actually in the 10-20 section. Interestingly, Wlad might not be history yet and if he flattens Fury in the UK to regain the title in his 40s a rethink is (rightly) in order.

[Tuan_Jim]

He also had about 4 years to fight Lennox Lewis.

Wlad called out Lewis after nearly every fight from 2000 to 2002, but Lennox avoided him.

Who did Wlad beat to make it to your #6?

Can anyone clarify to me exactly what Wladimir Klitschko's single defining victory is?

Your hero Floyd Mayweather never beat a prime elite opponent either. Floyd waited until they were past prime.

Wlad beat MANY very good fighters in their prime (Peter I, Ibragimov, Chagaev, Povetkin, Byrd I, Haye, McCline, Chambers, Pulev, etc) and he never avoided anyone. There isn't just one that stands out.

Lennox Lewis avoided Wladimir Klitschko. Samuel Peter described as a very good fighter. The silliness continues.

[gilgamesh]

Both Top 20 Heavyweights I'd say.

Not Top 10...they'd be in the 11-20 range.

[Freedom2013]

Lennox Lewis avoided Wladimir Klitschko. Samuel Peter described as a very good fighter. The silliness continues.

Watch Wlad's fights from 2002 to 2002. After each fight he called out Lennox, who wanted older softer opponents.

And yes, in 2005 undefeated Sam Peter was a strong and dangerous puncher. Most "experts" picked him to beat Wlad.

What do you have against the Klitschkos? Is "Tuan_Jim" another account of the notorious banned poster "Brut"?

[davie]

I am in danger of repeating myself from other threads....

....but the K brothers always produce a great debate and personally I still remain more than a bit perplexed as to where they actually fit in when it comes to their heayweight legacy.

Right now, I am more inclined to the view that they were primarily 'effective' rather 'outstanding' and that some extremely good/rigorous management enabled them to keep hold of the titles for a considerable period of time.

The last point should not be sniffed at. The brothers nearly always defended their titles on completely their own terms; the location, timing and build-up to the fight were incredibly tightly choereographed. So too was when an opponent was selected.

All those huge German stadium fights created heaps of pressure on opponents from the moment they arrived at the airport.

It was the kind of efficient and comprehensive career management that boxing has not seen before. I really don't think it was any accident that the Fury team went right after this when they fought Wlad; for example challenging the design/fit of glove and the firmness of the ring.

I don't want to pigeon-hole the brothers as German Management machines because as someone rightly said - they lived clean, trained hard and from a boxing perspective they played to their strengths and invariably get their tactics right as well.

They were intelligent and hugely disciplined guys and true professionals in the way that many other Heavweights with more talent/style than them were not.

At present both of them appear in my Top 20 Heavyweight list but actually in the 10-20 section. Interestingly, Wlad might not be history yet and if he flattens Fury in the UK to regain the title in his 40s a rethink is (rightly) in order.

With regards to the build up to the fights and the pressure put on opponents, Ali surely falls into that category particularly in his bouts vs Foreman and Frazier

[Tuan_Jim]

Lennox Lewis avoided Wladimir Klitschko. Samuel Peter described as a very good fighter. The silliness continues.

Watch Wlad's fights from 2002 to 2002. After each fight he called out Lennox, who wanted older softer opponents.

And yes, in 2005 undefeated Sam Peter was a strong and dangerous puncher. Most "experts" picked him to beat Wlad.

What do you have against the Klitschkos? Is "Tuan_Jim" this another account of the notorious banned poster "Brut"?

The delusion here is astonishing. When Lennox Lewis was demolishing Michael Grant and Frans Botha, Wlad was boxing scrubs like Bostice and Barrett on Lewis' undercards. The mere fact he was on Lewis' undercards should indicate to you that he was being built up by HBO for a Lewis fight but wasn't considered ready yet. Then of course Wlad went the WBO route, and, as you will well know, in winning that title he removes himself from the top 10 rankings of the belts Lewis held and loses the chance to force a fight by making himself mandatory. And at this time, as you know, Lewis had to attend to his mandatory with David Tua.

Lewis obviously had his schedule full in 2001 with the Rahman debacle, and once he sorted that out all roads led to Mike Tyson. The world wanted Lewis/Tyson. No one wanted Lewis/Wladimir Klitschko.

'Lennox wanted older softer opponents' is a risible statement. Were any of Lewis' opponents 2000-2003 as soft as the journeymen Bostice, Barrett, Charles Shufford or Derek Jefferson? Were any of them as old as Wlad's 42 year old Ray Mercer? The 'worst' opponent Lewis fought in that period was Frans Botha - and no surprise that he's the one who pops up on Wlad's record, years later, and goes 8 rounds with him! And then, not long after that, Wlad had the gall to exhume 38 year old Corrie Sanders! Corrie Sanders!!!

Your revisionist history doesn't work because you are trying to piece it all together in 2016. Those of us who were watching at the time are too familiar with the timelines and statuses of all the above mentioned fighters for this to work. But do try it among the pubescents of Current Scene.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He also had about 4 years to fight Lennox Lewis.

Wlad called out Lewis after nearly every fight from 2000 to 2002, but Lennox avoided him.

Who did Wlad beat to make it to your #6?

Can anyone clarify to me exactly what Wladimir Klitschko's single defining victory is?

Your hero Floyd Mayweather never beat a prime elite opponent either. Floyd waited until they were past prime.

Wlad beat MANY very good fighters in their prime (Peter I, Ibragimov, Chagaev, Povetkin, Byrd I, Haye, McCline, Chambers, Pulev, etc) and he never avoided anyone. There isn't just one that stands out.

Wlad called lennox out the whole year he was fighting rahman and LL avoided him? He was going to be after Rock, but Lewis lost.

[elmersalsa]

I thank everyone that gave their opinions on the Klitschkos Brothers. Very good points, indeed.

Now, some people say that they didn't have a significant win against a great opponent. That's correct and is not a lie. But, can we only rate fighters by just saying "who they beat"?

If someone that is born, let's say in 2010 and would like to make his personal subjective list of all time great heavyweights and pound per pound greats in the future, let's say, in the year 2035, and see Wlad's record of 18 title defenses, don't you guys believe that that young man would be impressed with that written on paper? He never watched the Klitschkos fight live. Lots of us never seen the greats like Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali or Rocky Marciano in their total primes. But, we rate them highly maybe because of the old boxing magazine's publications like The Ring and KO.

How could we explain the young man in 2035 that Wlad or Vitali weren't great when he never saw them fight live on tv in the first place?

If he sees the weight, height and reach of the Klitschkos on YouTube in 2035 and compare them to the greats of yesteryear on what he sees on film, won't you guys believe that that lad could think different and have a different opinion? Because, I have heard in numerous occasions of posters in here saying that the great Jack Dempsey or the great Rocky Marciano would destroy someone like the great Mike Tyson for example. Or that The Brown Bomber, Joe Louis, would've eat someone like Riddick Bowe for breakfast.

That's too much weight disadvantage for me to picture.

And how about if the great Muhammad Ali never had the greats like Joe Frazier and George Foreman in his ledger and fought BUMS OF THE MONTH like Louis or had the same opponents the Klitschkos brothers had? Would he still be considered a great fighter?

The Klitschkos brothers cannot go up to another weight class. They can't come down to middleweight to fight a great boxer. Well, it's their fault that there was no one capable?

[Jpreisser]

I'll wait until Wladimir has retired to place him. He's still going at it. But I would note that, for as much as it is said that Wladimir lacks fortitude, he sure picked himself up well after his losses. I recall him at least trying to get up after every knockdown, too. But the strength of schedule will always haunt him, unless he miraculously beats Fury and then proceeds to down a number of other top rated contenders.

[Tuan_Jim]

How could we explain the young man in 2035 that Wlad or Vitali weren't great when he never saw them fight live on tv in the first place?

I think fans in 2035 will hear all these amazing dimensions, heights, lengths, magnitudes, weights, widths, visit whatever the equivalent of YouTube expecting to see a pair of monsters and then be profoundly disappointed by what they see. There will be a lot of threads about people admitting they had to stop watching the Peter, Ibragimov, Byrd and Haye fights, or trying to fathom why Wlad wasn't disqualified against Povetkin.

[Bricks]

I'll wait until Wladimir has retired to place him. He's still going at it. But I would note that, for as much as it is said that Wladimir lacks fortitude, he sure picked himself up well after his losses. I recall him at least trying to get up after every knockdown, too. But the strength of schedule will always haunt him, unless he miraculously beats Fury and then proceeds to down a number of other top rated contenders.

My remembrance is a little different :TU
The samuel peter knockdowns were more like a tall big guy running away with his back turned at times and going down from back punches and slaps

If he has confidence in his chin and fights aggressively he will stop fury.

[Ezzard]

He also had about 4 years to fight Lennox Lewis.

Wlad called out Lewis after nearly every fight from 2000 to 2002, but Lennox avoided him.

Who did Wlad beat to make it to your #6?

Can anyone clarify to me exactly what Wladimir Klitschko's single defining victory is?

Your hero Floyd Mayweather never beat a prime elite opponent either. Floyd waited until they were past prime.
Wlad beat MANY very good fighters in their prime (Peter I, Ibragimov, Chagaev, Povetkin, Byrd I, Haye, McCline, Chambers, Pulev, etc) and he never avoided anyone. There isn't just one that stands out.

I have no evidence of this but my guess is Tuan doesn't have much time for Floyd. But like I say, I don't know.

[Ezzard]

I am in danger of repeating myself from other threads....

....but the K brothers always produce a great debate and personally I still remain more than a bit perplexed as to where they actually fit in when it comes to their heayweight legacy.

Right now, I am more inclined to the view that they were primarily 'effective' rather 'outstanding' and that some extremely good/rigorous management enabled them to keep hold of the titles for a considerable period of time.

The last point should not be sniffed at. The brothers nearly always defended their titles on completely their own terms; the location, timing and build-up to the fight were incredibly tightly choereographed. So too was when an opponent was selected.

All those huge German stadium fights created heaps of pressure on opponents from the moment they arrived at the airport.

It was the kind of efficient and comprehensive career management that boxing has not seen before. I really don't think it was any accident that the Fury team went right after this when they fought Wlad; for example challenging the design/fit of glove and the firmness of the ring.

I don't want to pigeon-hole the brothers as German Management machines because as someone rightly said - they lived clean, trained hard and from a boxing perspective they played to their strengths and invariably get their tactics right as well.

They were intelligent and hugely disciplined guys and true professionals in the way that many other Heavweights with more talent/style than them were not.

At present both of them appear in my Top 20 Heavyweight list but actually in the 10-20 section. Interestingly, Wlad might not be history yet and if he flattens Fury in the UK to regain the title in his 40s a rethink is (rightly) in order.

The management is right. Like I said though this is modern day sports. All the top guys do it.

[Tuan_Jim]

He also had about 4 years to fight Lennox Lewis.

Wlad called out Lewis after nearly every fight from 2000 to 2002, but Lennox avoided him.

Who did Wlad beat to make it to your #6?

Can anyone clarify to me exactly what Wladimir Klitschko's single defining victory is?

Your hero Floyd Mayweather never beat a prime elite opponent either. Floyd waited until they were past prime.
Wlad beat MANY very good fighters in their prime (Peter I, Ibragimov, Chagaev, Povetkin, Byrd I, Haye, McCline, Chambers, Pulev, etc) and he never avoided anyone. There isn't just one that stands out.

I have no evidence of this but my guess is Tuan doesn't have much time for Floyd. But like I say, I don't know.

It was an odd remark, wasn't it. He also seems to think I'm Brutu!?

[Counter-puncher]

I don't want to pigeon-hole the brothers as German Management machines because as someone rightly said - they lived clean, .

depends on your definition of 'clean' I suppose....

[Counter-puncher]

Lennox Lewis avoided Wladimir Klitschko. Samuel Peter described as a very good fighter. The silliness continues.

Watch Wlad's fights from 2002 to 2002. After each fight he called out Lennox, who wanted older softer opponents.

And yes, in 2005 undefeated Sam Peter was a strong and dangerous puncher. Most "experts" picked him to beat Wlad.

What do you have against the Klitschkos? Is "Tuan_Jim" this another account of the notorious banned poster "Brut"?

The delusion here is astonishing. .

you're very easily astonished.

do you have a permanent expression of wide-eyed shock, plastered accross your jaundiced noggin, thus:

[magwitch]

No, they never had a great rival.

No Frazier to Ali, or Tyson to Holyfield.

Very good, very competent fighters, but they never competed against any ATGs, except for Vitali's aborted shot at Lewis, which he lost.

That's not to say they couldn't give quite a few great heavies a difficult night. But they never actually proved their worth against the elite.

But BoxBuzz shouldn't diminish Wlad just because he dropped the title to the mediocre Fury.
Hell, Wlad is practically 40 and obvioulsy nearing the end.

You don't ridicule Ali because he dropped a decision to Berbick at 39, or call Frazier a slug because he waddled to a draw at 37 against Jumbo Cummings.

Interesting comment about the rivalry. I would say that Riddick Bowe was Holyfield's arch-rival. The Kessler to his Froch if you like.....whereas Tyson that got whupped two times, the second time in utterly pathetic fashion - disqualification following GBH....I don't think it was Tyson at his "best"...... but, it still took Holyfield to expose this. That was a very popular victory indeed. No disrespect to Tyson but he used to petrify men and Holyfield just stood his ground and battered him. Brilliant victory. Holyfield in addition to talent had huge belief. Perhaps the former helps with the latter....or maybe his faith in God, who knows.

[magwitch]

Careful what you answer people. This is how elmer labels greatness. From now on it could be the great vitali and the great wlad everytime he writes their name, which isn't annoying at all, especially when talking about greats like pryor and taylor and now the klit bros.

If I was a moderator I'd auto pop that every time he types DelaHoya it says the great.

De la Hoya WAS great. His record attests to it. I always thought that De la Hoya looked like an extremely orthodox, upright fighter. Unflamboyant, not extraordinary. But his record proves the opposite, imho.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Careful what you answer people. This is how elmer labels greatness. From now on it could be the great vitali and the great wlad everytime he writes their name, which isn't annoying at all, especially when talking about greats like pryor and taylor and now the klit bros.

If I was a moderator I'd auto pop that every time he types DelaHoya it says the great.

De la Hoya WAS great. His record attests to it. I always thought that De la Hoya looked like an extremely orthodox, upright fighter. Unflamboyant, not extraordinary. But his record proves the opposite, imho.

Elmer hates him.

[Bodyshot3]

With regards to the build up to the fights and the pressure put on opponents, Ali surely falls into that category particularly in his bouts vs Foreman and Frazier

Yes and very good call Davie

But I think what the K brothers delivered though was a kind of precise, even clinical management that went beyond what Ali was doing. Some of the stuff and hugely oddball people surrounding Ali was frequently deeply chaotic; but Ali found his own way.

It was not exactly boxing by 'spreadsheet' by the K brothers but I think that they were incredibly exact in limiting risk and creating the most favourable conditions for themselves. Afterall, they called themselves the Klitschko Management Group!

They were very different folk to their predecessors in this respect (although Holmes was very organised for his era) and I think it worked for them.

Perhaps it is only an interesting footnote; but a young Tyson went to the Austrian training camp Wlad used and was their guest and I think that delivered some useful intelligence down the line.

This may be a rare example of the K brothers and Manny Steward not getting their long-term planning spot-on.

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't want to pigeon-hole the brothers as German Management machines because as someone rightly said - they lived clean, .

depends on your definition of 'clean' I suppose....

Interesting that we often hear about "Mr. Field" and Roy Jones juicing, but somehow the Klitchkos seem to get off scot free.