Lewis or Bowe: who had better career?

[Boxing Writer]

Discussion about Lewis’ and Bowe’s resumes started in another thread, but there are many others topics there, so I wanted to start a new thread on this subject. Please, don’t write in this thread who was better fighter H2H, or who would have won in 1993 or in 1995. Just try to make unbiased comparison of resumes of these two great fighters.

In my opinion arguments can be made for each of them.

For Bowe:

1) His two best wins (Holyfield I and III) are much better than any win in Lewis career;

2) He lost only 1 time against ATG fighter in a close fight, while Lewis was knocked out twice by no-hopers.

For Lewis:

1) Longevity. Number of years when he was ranked among top-3 heavyweights of the world in the annual ratings of The Ring Magazine: Lewis - 11 (1992-1993, 1995-2003), Bowe - only 5 (1991-1995). Lewis dominated the division for 3 years (exactly 36 months if you exclude 7-months period between two Rahman fights), while Bowe was at the top of the division for 12 months only.

2) Opposition. How many wins over the fighters who won major title(s) in the HW division each of them has? Lewis - 12 (Weaver, Tucker, Bruno, Morrison, Mercer, McCall, Akinwande, Briggs, Holyfield, Tyson, Rahman, Vitali), Bowe - 7 (2 wins against Holyfield, Thomas, Tubbs, Hide, Seldon, Dokes). If we exclude wins against former champions who were totally shot by the time they faced Lewis or Bowe (Tyson and Weaver for Lewis and Dokes for Bowe), we will still have 10 to 6 advantage in Lewis favor. Plus Lewis beat way more good fighters who never won world titles than Bowe did.

In my opinion, Lewis had better career, but Bowe had a very good career too. I rank Lewis in the lower part of my top-10 heavyweights of all time, while Bowe around number 15. H2H is another story, as I think Bowe at his peak was the best HW since Larry Holmes, but this thread is about achievements, not about who would beat who.

[BoxBuzz]

If you ask "who had a better peak"....Then you'd have to say Bowe.

But there is no comparison regarding careers. Lennox by a long shot.

[SNG]

Lewis no question.

[gilgamesh]

Lennox Lewis, it's not even debatable.

[Controversial]

No contest, Lewis.

[PredatorHayds]

Best win was Bowe against Holyfield.

Best career is Lennox by quite a distance.

[Syntax Error]

Lennox Lewis had the better career by far.

Bowe was shot & slurring his words by 29.

[Boxerbeetle]

Easiest poll I've ever had to answer on here...Lewis by miles.

[gregor]

Lewis dominated the division for quite a time.

In terms of comparing careers this is levels above winning an exciting fight (Bowe-Holy I) or even trilogy.

For Bowe:
2) He lost only 1 time against ATG fighter in a close fight, while Lewis was knocked out twice by no-hopers.

You are technically right about only 1 loss, but in reality you should also count both fights with Golota here.

[Manos_De_Piedra]

Lewis.

More longetivity and beat better opponents.

The only thing that's up for discussion is the better single win...which would probably go to Bowe since he dispatched Holyfield relatively easily the first time around, but what's worth noting is that Evander was a 205 pound fighter who had yet to really develop the strength and power he had in the mid 90s. And he fought the wrong fight.

[Ambling Alp II]

Holyfield was at his absolute best when Bowe beat him the first two times. That is a huge win. Doesn't mater what the needle on the scale says.
I would also lean towards Lewis. However this is much closer than many people think. Bowe is very underrated by many.
Golota is the go to for Bowe haters, but he still won. If you are going to count that against him then you have to count the decisons Lewis got against Mercer and a way it Holyfield. And of course he lost to MCall and Rahman.

This is simply not the slam dunk that some people like to think it is.

[gilgamesh]

Holyfield was at his absolute best when Bowe beat him the first two times. That is a huge win. Doesn't mater what the needle on the scale says.
I would also lean towards Lewis. However this is much closer than many people think. Bowe is very underrated by many.
Golota is the go to for Bowe haters, but he still won. If you are going to count that against him then you have to count the decisons Lewis got against Mercer and a way it Holyfield. And of course he lost to MCall and Rahman.

This is simply not the slam dunk that some people like to think it is.

Alright let's break it down shall we.

Bowe

Best win: Undoubtedly Holyfield #1...specifically the 1st fight. He stopped Holyfield in the 3rd fight as well, Holyfield had been having Medical issues around that time, and probably wasn't at his best like he was in the first few fights.

Other notable wins: TKO 8 Pinklon Thomas, KO 2 Bert Cooper, W10 Tony Tubbs, TKO 7 Pierre Coetezer, TKO 1Michael Dokes, W12 Larry Donald, KO 6 Herbie Hide, KO 6 Jorge Luis Gonzalez

Championship Reign: Lasted Just under a year. He made 2 defenses of the Championship he won from Holyfield before losing it back to Holyfield. Then if you want to be generous you can also throw in his WBO Championship reign (The WBO Title wasn't considered especially significant at this time, and didn't take on a position of Prominence in the sport until the early 2000's)

So if you want to add in the WBO reign. He's 5-1 with 4 KO's in Title Fight without it. He's 3-1 (2 KO's) in Title Fights.



Lewis

Best win: A few wins could qualify depending on who you ask. I figure it'd either have to be Holyfield, Tyson or Vitali

Other notable wins: TKO 2 Donovan "Razor" Ruddock, W12 Tony Tucker, TKO 7 Frank Bruno, TKO 6 Tommy Morrison, W10 Ray Mercer, TKO 5 Oliver McCall, KO 1 Andrew Golota, TKO 5 Shannon Briggs, W12 Holyfield (Should've been 2 Wins over Holyfield, but he was screwed with a draw once), KO 2 Michael Grant, TKO 2 Frans Botha, W12 David Tua, KO 4 Hasim Rahman, KO 8 Mike Tyson, TKO 6 Vitali Klitschko

Championship Reign: 3 defenses of his 1st Title (The WBC Championship - which he received because Bowe refused to defend against him), before being stopped by Oliver McCall. 9 defenses in his 2nd Title Reign and he became the Undisputed Champion over the course of that reign. He lost the Title to Hasim Rahman in 2001, and then won it back from him around the end of the year. Making 2 more defenses in his 3rd and final Title Reign before retiring as Champion. He spent roughly 8 years of his career as a World Champion of some sort.

So over the course of 3 reigns as a Champion his record in World TItle Bouts is. 15-2-1 (11 KO's)




So assuming you're being generous and giving Riddick Bowe credit for his WBO Title Reign, that still leaves Lennox Lewis with 3 times as many Championship wins, and Championship fights.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd say that hepatitis had evander quite short of his best in the 3rd fight. If not, bowe more than likely would have been knocked out.

[Ambling Alp II]

Holyfield was at his absolute best when Bowe beat him the first two times. That is a huge win. Doesn't mater what the needle on the scale says.
I would also lean towards Lewis. However this is much closer than many people think. Bowe is very underrated by many.
Golota is the go to for Bowe haters, but he still won. If you are going to count that against him then you have to count the decisons Lewis got against Mercer and a way it Holyfield. And of course he lost to MCall and Rahman.

This is simply not the slam dunk that some people like to think it is.

Alright let's break it down shall we.

Bowe

Best win: Undoubtedly Holyfield #1...specifically the 1st fight. He stopped Holyfield in the 3rd fight as well, Holyfield had been having Medical issues around that time, and probably wasn't at his best like he was in the first few fights.

Other notable wins: TKO 8 Pinklon Thomas, KO 2 Bert Cooper, W10 Tony Tubbs, TKO 7 Pierre Coetezer, TKO 1Michael Dokes, W12 Larry Donald, KO 6 Herbie Hide, KO 6 Jorge Luis Gonzalez

Championship Reign: Lasted Just under a year. He made 2 defenses of the Championship he won from Holyfield before losing it back to Holyfield. Then if you want to be generous you can also throw in his WBO Championship reign (The WBO Title wasn't considered especially significant at this time, and didn't take on a position of Prominence in the sport until the early 2000's)

So if you want to add in the WBO reign. He's 5-1 with 4 KO's in Title Fight without it. He's 3-1 (2 KO's) in Title Fights.



Lewis

Best win: A few wins could qualify depending on who you ask. I figure it'd either have to be Holyfield, Tyson or Vitali

Other notable wins: TKO 2 Donovan "Razor" Ruddock, W12 Tony Tucker, TKO 7 Frank Bruno, TKO 6 Tommy Morrison, W10 Ray Mercer, TKO 5 Oliver McCall, KO 1 Andrew Golota, TKO 5 Shannon Briggs, W12 Holyfield (Should've been 2 Wins over Holyfield, but he was screwed with a draw once), KO 2 Michael Grant, TKO 2 Frans Botha, W12 David Tua, KO 4 Hasim Rahman, KO 8 Mike Tyson, TKO 6 Vitali Klitschko

Championship Reign: 3 defenses of his 1st Title (The WBC Championship - which he received because Bowe refused to defend against him), before being stopped by Oliver McCall. 9 defenses in his 2nd Title Reign and he became the Undisputed Champion over the course of that reign. He lost the Title to Hasim Rahman in 2001, and then won it back from him around the end of the year. Making 2 more defenses in his 3rd and final Title Reign before retiring as Champion. He spent roughly 8 years of his career as a World Champion of some sort.

So over the course of 3 reigns as a Champion his record in World TItle Bouts is. 15-2-1 (11 KO's)




So assuming you're being generous and giving Riddick Bowe credit for his WBO Title Reign, that still leaves Lennox Lewis with 3 times as many Championship wins, and Championship fights.

The best win is very telling. Past it Holyfield, past it Tyson, or friggin Klitschko. That's a joke compared to beating Holyfield at his best.
Agree with some of this, not others. (Lewis didn't serve two wins against an old Holyfield, he should not have got the second one. He also should not have got the decison against Mercer.)
Still give the edge to Lewis, but this is tight.

The biggest problem with this is the emphasis on title fights. WBS title fights don't mean jack. It's who (and when) you beat. Tommy Burns had 11 title (real, not WBS) defenses. Is he he one the best?

[gilgamesh]

I listed more than just Title defenses. I mentioned all the Best wins, and noteworthy moments of their respective careers. I think my breakdown was pretty thorough. I could get into their styles, and how they would've matched up head to head, but then that's just speculation and fantasy. I just laid out the stats, and the names. Not all of the names I listed as notable wins were Title Fights. A noteworthy win over a tough, name fighter is significant to me whether a Championship is on the line or not.

[man]

Holyfield was at his absolute best when Bowe beat him the first two times. That is a huge win. Doesn't mater what the needle on the scale says.
I would also lean towards Lewis. However this is much closer than many people think. Bowe is very underrated by many.
Golota is the go to for Bowe haters, but he still won. If you are going to count that against him then you have to count the decisons Lewis got against Mercer and a way it Holyfield. And of course he lost to MCall and Rahman.

then you have to mention as well what
lewis did to golota ...

[Klee Gluckman]

To be fair too Lewis when Bowe put on that great win over Holyfield in the first fight he was 25 and hadn't faced adversity. Bowe fell apart in 1996 and ended up in jail. Bowe was only 27 when he had his last clear cut win over Holyfield. Tyson would have been far more formidable for Holyfield at 25. Bowe got to fight a great with his first shot, as did Ali with Liston. Tyson only fought an ageing Holmes when he was in his prime. Few fighters get to fight a great straight away, Vitali did and lost. Holyfield had to settle for Douglas, Tyson for Berbick, Lewis for Ruddock. Bowe was in the right place at the right time, he would not be the same man four years later problems outside the ring got to him. But November 1992 Bowe was awesome.

[Rexob]

Lewis by far and he would have demolished Bowe if they had ever met as well.

[Bodyshot3]

Lewis by some distance.

Bowe's career was excellent; but far shorter due to his own personal shortcomings and I still don't think Rock Newman was good for him.
The loss of Futch Eddie Futch was also a colossal blow in terms of the right technical advice and wider career guidance.

I found this on the NY Times and it seems to sum things up really accurately.

He was definite in his attitude toward his fighters. He worked on mind as well as body, and if a fighter wanted Futch as his trainer, the fighter had to listen. Futch took on the erratic Riddick Bowe after extracting a promise that Bowe would train hard and listen to him. Bowe was known as a laggard in the amateur ranks, a big, bruising belter who softened when anyone stood up to him. When Bowe, favored to win, took the silver at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul, South Korea, his future appeared shaky.

''This boy has been misunderstood,'' Futch said. He took Bowe under his wing, taught him responsibility and dedication, wheedled and cajoled him and helped Bowe win the world heavyweight title in 1992. Then, he dropped him in 1996 when Bowe stopped listening.

[Bodyshot3]

The same Eddie Futch who trained Michael Spinks to last 91 seconds against Mike Tyson?

Futch really had far, far more successes than failures...and that, I would suggest, is perhaps just a shade uncharitable/judgemental on Futch.

What I was trying to illustrate was that Riddick had a good career but ultimately it could have been far better and much closer to the Lewis CV; Futch was a trainer and also a very good father figure for many, many fighters and when the relationship broke down with Riddick that really was not a good thing. Riddick needed a mentor as well as a trainer.

Eddie offered stability, technical and tactical knowledge and really should not be judged solely on the Spinks-Tyson fight; that's a slightly unkind snap judgement on a guy who made far more champions than most.

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't rate Bowe's career on what could have been. Yes it could have been better. However, the question is what is was.

There are really four main factors that should be considered when comparing two fighters.
1. Head to head if applicable.
2. Common opponents if applicable.
3. Losses. The sheer number, who they were to and how bad they were. (Dubious wins can be added to this.)
4. Best wins.

The stages of a fighter's career and his opponent's career need be taken into consideration.

1. Obviously they never fought each other.
2. Common opponents. Lewis looked better against Golota, Bowe looked better against a prime Holyfield than Lewis did against a way past it Holyfield.
3. Bowe had no embarrassing losses. Lewis had two, as well as a couple of questionable decisions in his favor.
4. The best opponent (at the time they fought) that Bowe beat was far better than anyone Lewis beat. To do that, the sheer depth of Lewis' wins would have to far outweigh Bowe's. Bowe had a few nice wins. Lewis had many more.
#4 is the only important advantage Lewis has and even that is not by that much.

If you objectively look at this, it has to be really close. People need to look at what is important, not stupid stuff like WBS title defenses and the trash can thing.

[BoxBuzz]

AA.....don't confuse a fighters potential or peak performances with his career.

One way to measure a career is simply how much you earned, or how long you lasted.

Not as much how well you fought.

I think of the word "career"....and that's a separate subject from your physical feats that you may have performed during your tenure.

[gilgamesh]

AA.....don't confuse a fighters potential or peak performances with his career.

One way to measure a career is simply how much you earned, or how long you lasted.

Not as much how well you fought.

I think of the word "career"....and that's a separate subject from your physical feats that you may have performed during your tenure.

Indeed.

[Syntax Error]

I can only assume that Riddick Bowe & one of his children voted for him?