Al Haymon - Waddell & Reed investment

[lefty]

As people who have followed the whole Haymon/PBC venture closely- they'll know that Haymon received a large pool of funding from various venture capital/hedge funds, etc. Anyway, a chap on another site has been looking at the quarterly results and come to some interesting conclusions .....

Haymon started out with an investment of $529 million *circa* from Waddell & Reed and by September 2015 the value of the combined investment was $214 million and by December 31st the combined investment was worth $82 million *circa*. Anyway this guy has worked out that if it continues to Hemorrhage money like this, the investment will be worthless by the end of February. Waddell and Reed as a fund has also dropped rather heavily in it's share price allegedly.

This obviously isnt great news for boxing if this guys predictions come true whether you're a Haymon or a PBC fan.

[lefty]

Can you give us the source, would be interesting to see how the value is calculated

I havent got an actual link unfortunately but the guy had been reading the quarterly results of Waddell & Reed and that's how he came up with these figures. It's pretty interesting. Apologies though for a lack of an actual source/link I can post you too.

[Tarkus]

It is good for boxing. This was a con from the beginning. It was so obvious that this model would not work that I am certain someone as astute as Al Haymon knew it perfectly well. Either he conned the suckers at the hedge-fund or they worked together for some dubious end. As I said from the very beginning, money runs out and Haymon will switch back to busyness as usual.

[crusader]

Q3: https://www.reddit.com/r/Boxing/comment ... 3_results/

Q4: https://www.reddit.com/r/Boxing/comment ... on_82_mil/

[Cap]

That's too bad. Sounds like they were running way too many cards each month. It might have been wiser to run three cards on three networks each month and pay the fighters a bit less until the project was in the black. As for broadcasting on HBO and Showtime to hear the so-called professional commentators, I would be happier to see fights on NBC or FOX and listen to one guy who knows his stuff instead of this team-commentator malarkey, like it's a friggin' NFL game.

[lefty]

Q3: https://www.reddit.com/r/Boxing/comment ... 3_results/

Q4: https://www.reddit.com/r/Boxing/comment ... on_82_mil/

Thanks man.

[koolkc107]

According to this, the PBC should be dead in the water and done by the end of February.

So, if they continue to put on cards the rest of the year we can assume at the very least
that someone flunked math and at the most that someone is hating so bad it has made
them full of horse manure.

I bet we see PBC fights into 2017 at least.

[ElJefe]

If the PBC is really doomed to fail, I find it strange that he's been able to sign so many fighters. Surely some of these boxers would have some sort of team around them that would look into the PBC model from a business point of view and assess how sustainable it is?

[lefty]

According to this, the PBC should be dead in the water and done by the end of February.

So, if they continue to put on cards the rest of the year we can assume at the very least
that someone flunked math and at the most that someone is hating so bad it has made
them full of horse manure.

I bet we see PBC fights into 2017 at least.

They could also have other investors.

[sucracristo]

According to this, the PBC should be dead in the water and done by the end of February.

So, if they continue to put on cards the rest of the year we can assume at the very least
that someone flunked math and at the most that someone is hating so bad it has made
them full of horse manure.

I bet we see PBC fights into 2017 at least.

the market value of the fund would be based on how competitive the return on investment
is relative to other things to invest in. it doesn't necessarily mean anyone is losing money.
it's also hard to calculate a market value of a share in a hedge fund. since normal people
can't invest in them, shares aren't really traded like other securities.

if an normal stock/bond just breaks even, then a lot of investors would dump it, meaning the
value goes down. i highly doubt the value of the assetts in the fund went down like that. those
cards have live gates and sponsors and revenue and they can't be losing that much money
that fast. there would be lawsuits flying left and right if the fund was actually losing that
much cash. it would mean there have been like zero revenues and everything on the balance
sheet is in the expense column.

[koolkc107]

According to this, the PBC should be dead in the water and done by the end of February.

So, if they continue to put on cards the rest of the year we can assume at the very least
that someone flunked math and at the most that someone is hating so bad it has made
them full of horse manure.

I bet we see PBC fights into 2017 at least.

the market value of the fund would be based on how competitive the return on investment
is relative to other things to invest in. it doesn't necessarily mean anyone is losing money.
it's also hard to calculate a market value of a share in a hedge fund. since normal people
can't invest in them, shares aren't really traded like other securities.

if an normal stock/bond just breaks even, then a lot of investors would dump it, meaning the
value goes down. i highly doubt the value of the assetts in the fund went down like that. those
cards have live gates and sponsors and revenue and they can't be losing that much money
that fast. there would be lawsuits flying left and right if the fund was actually losing that
much cash. it would mean there have been like zero revenues and everything on the balance
sheet is in the expense column.

Thank you for saying it.

If I would have went into it like that, folks would have just started saying how clueless I am.

Good analysis.

[sucracristo]

I find it strange that he's been able to sign so many fighters.

why? he gets paid a % when they fight, and may front them training expenses also,
but a manager who doesn't get his fighters fights and still tries to hold them to contracts
is not going to be able to keep his manager's license long. his guys get fights and they
get paid. what more is there to it? when they stop getting fights and getting paid, then
he needs to get out of dodge fast.

[pizzakid13]

PBC is painful to watch.

[ElJefe]

I find it strange that he's been able to sign so many fighters.

why? he gets paid a % when they fight, and may front them training expenses also,
but a manager who doesn't get his fighters fights and still tries to hold them to contracts
is not going to be able to keep his manager's license long. his guys get fights and they
get paid. what more is there to it? when they stop getting fights and getting paid, then
he needs to get out of dodge fast.

Read the rest of my post.

It's strange that if he has a flawed business model that none of these fighters, or more to the point the people round them, have looked into it and avoided signing with him.

[BAD INTENTIONS]

According to this, the PBC should be dead in the water and done by the end of February.

So, if they continue to put on cards the rest of the year we can assume at the very least
that someone flunked math and at the most that someone is hating so bad it has made
them full of horse manure.

I bet we see PBC fights into 2017 at least.

the market value of the fund would be based on how competitive the return on investment
is relative to other things to invest in. it doesn't necessarily mean anyone is losing money.
it's also hard to calculate a market value of a share in a hedge fund. since normal people
can't invest in them, shares aren't really traded like other securities.

if an normal stock/bond just breaks even, then a lot of investors would dump it, meaning the
value goes down. i highly doubt the value of the assetts in the fund went down like that. those
cards have live gates and sponsors and revenue and they can't be losing that much money
that fast. there would be lawsuits flying left and right if the fund was actually losing that
much cash. it would mean there have been like zero revenues and everything on the balance
sheet is in the expense column.

All this money business is well beyond my comprehension. But I do get one thing.

It all comes down to how much money the rich people want to get.
Almost every event posts a profit, but if the profit isn't high enough, then it's considered a loss.

So I highly doubt the PBC is hemorrhaging money. You don't sell out a show, do 3M+ viewers and not make a good amount of money.

Also, why does the PBC have to be a smashing success from the get go?
Did we expect America's 9th (just a guess) favorite sport to suddenly become the hottest thing? Why?

Also, what's the problem with the PBC specifically. Everyone puts on crappy fights.
But we did get ...
Thurman VS Guerrero
Garcia VS Peterson
Lee VS Quillin
Dirrell VS Jack
Dirrell VS Degeale
Khan VS Algieri
Broner VS Porter
Huck VS Glowaki
Santa Cruz VS Mares
Fonfara VS Cleverly
Garcia VS Guerrero

I'm sure there's many more, and of course there are garbage fights too. But we all watched Kovalev/Pascal II, so the bar isn't really that high.

Give it a chance. Also, all of these fights are reaching 83%+ of the houses in the US. HBO reaches 10%.

[expe]

I find it strange that he's been able to sign so many fighters.

why? he gets paid a % when they fight, and may front them training expenses also,
but a manager who doesn't get his fighters fights and still tries to hold them to contracts
is not going to be able to keep his manager's license long. his guys get fights and they
get paid. what more is there to it? when they stop getting fights and getting paid, then
he needs to get out of dodge fast.

Read the rest of my post.

It's strange that if he has a flawed business model that none of these fighters, or more to the point the people round them, have looked into it and avoided signing with him.

Because the money's good. The fighters don't care whether Haymon or PBC is losing money, while they're being offered far and above what they're actually worth, they'll keep signing with him.

[Lancenix]

PBC is a terrible promotion and it is going to be out of money because the quality of fights suck. No one wants to watch the crap that is put on TV. This promotion would have had to reach the masses of general sports fans which it has not. Anyone who would have invested in Haymon is a moron and deserves to lose everything that they pout in. This promotion only has appealed to boxing fans who will watch any and all boxing because they simply love it so much. Boxing deserves what it gets because not enough guys fight each other. That has been a problem for many years. In the UFC the big fights happen in boxing they usually do not.

[ImranSarwar]

PBC is a terrible promotion and it is going to be out of money because the quality of fights suck. No one wants to watch the crap that is put on TV. This promotion would have had to reach the masses of general sports fans which it has not. Anyone who would have invested in Haymon is a moron and deserves to lose everything that they pout in. This promotion only has appealed to boxing fans who will watch any and all boxing because they simply love it so much. Boxing deserves what it gets because not enough guys fight each other. That has been a problem for many years. In the UFC the big fights happen in boxing they usually do not.

Well..... ^ ^ This guy is talking a little bit more at my level. I RESPECT the technical/ financial but...it is "a lost world.." to me.....I just don't go there & I can not too much try to understand that "world" beyond basic things.
What you all are handing in here..it's like me taking a current news headline ("Global Stocks, dollar Fall as oil Sell-off resumes.....") and we DISCUS! IT's "boring" to me!
But......the ground attack I can handle. Tell Al Hamond he can turn on my overdue cell bill with Verizon (860-515-7680) and then give me a call and I will start a focus on whom he has and also serve as screen & recommend new talent to him.
Oh never mind! I'm thinking about this deeper. I refuse to deal outside my UWBCAFO-I principles. That includes we don't recognize ANYTHING "world" except for the WBC WBA IBF & WBO ("Intercontinental" a.s.o. they can mix all they like! Matter of fact...them guys are so rich, why not we only BUY the IBO & shrink them to where they fit well at "second echelon" & this way it will be GRAND help to whole world of BOXING!) [email protected] I won't miss it and not "expensive".
Hope I won't FIX anyone wrong or strange with this post!
You all can continue your topic. [HOW do you KNOW all that?]

[Ricky_]

RIP, PBC

[Lancenix]

RIP, PBC

And a happy goodbye when it happens. Terrible to begin with. All it assured was that more fights were NOT going to happen.

[tiny_acres]

More fights.
More free fights.
More free fights on tv
More free fights on Channels that over 80% of Americans get.

Yep there are so many reasons to hate PBC.

[ImranSarwar]

More fights.
More free fights.
More free fights on tv
More free fights on Channels that over 80% of Americans get.

Yep there are so many reasons to hate PBC.

I'm unfamiliar with content. I haven't been paying attention to that particular. LOT OF $$ THEY TALK HERE! WOW!
I was never interested in Floyd V. Manny! Took TOO LONG! STALE!
Boxing is like everything else. It is a SPORT that is..ON THE MOVE. But..certain names is the key. Then you have different layers with the public. Pac-May basically bamboozled the cross over sector. Probably in the end it wasn't even "good" for the overall interest levels of the SPORT.
I'll like to see TFury & DWilder signed. That aught to be a "crossover" attraction and they SHOULD sign that fight in February sometime for a meeting in ICELAND, January/2017.
May return vs Gennady would be Hugh flare, too (banning "IBO"). IF 3Xg can pass Canelo.
My personal work come to administration and advocacy. Too much DUMB in boxing now beyond the FIRST &MAJOR FOUR. We have to absolutely bring 'that'under control!
Anyone holding a IBO "championship" is a greenhorn!

[Ricky_]

More fights.
More free fights.
More free fights on tv
More free fights on Channels that over 80% of Americans get.

Yep there are so many reasons to hate PBC.

Crap fights preventing good fights.

[DaveyMac]

According to this, the PBC should be dead in the water and done by the end of February.

So, if they continue to put on cards the rest of the year we can assume at the very least
that someone flunked math and at the most that someone is hating so bad it has made
them full of horse manure.

I bet we see PBC fights into 2017 at least.

the market value of the fund would be based on how competitive the return on investment
is relative to other things to invest in. it doesn't necessarily mean anyone is losing money.
it's also hard to calculate a market value of a share in a hedge fund. since normal people
can't invest in them, shares aren't really traded like other securities.

if an normal stock/bond just breaks even, then a lot of investors would dump it, meaning the
value goes down. i highly doubt the value of the assetts in the fund went down like that. those
cards have live gates and sponsors and revenue and they can't be losing that much money
that fast. there would be lawsuits flying left and right if the fund was actually losing that
much cash. it would mean there have been like zero revenues and everything on the balance
sheet is in the expense column.

If only that were true.
Unfortunately that's not the accounting method they are using. They aren't monetizing it as a stock and they aren't a hedge fund they are a mutual fund.

They are booking it based on the cash value of assets which means two things 1) there isn't much cash left and 2) they aren't showing any profits.
If they were showing profits they would use a more forward looking accounting method, but apparently the balance sheet is bad enough that it would bring a valuation even less than the 82million that there is in cash assets.

[ImranSarwar]

Hard to get a handle on this. Sure is OUT of OUR hands!