Tuan_Jim wrote:The thing is, the Klitschkos are always at their best. Everything is so weighted in their favour, and they are never without a full training camp - so when they collapse or quit that was them at their best. Every man who was willing to force a fight with Wlad beat him, except the obese Sam Peter who was without the fitness or ability to close the show.
Wladimir Klitschko has fought in several countries including the USA. Nothing was "weighted" in his favor.
Of course he has been in shape, no intelligent person would go into a world title fight not in shape. Wlad did gas against Puritty, but he had never gone past six rounds before that fight at age 21. He dominated every minute of the first nine rounds, but threw too many punches trying too hard for the KO to please his fans in Kiev, and became exhausted.
Your hero Floyd Mayweather always demanded all the advantages. He never fought in foreign countries and has even refused to fight outside his home town of Las Vegas, where he's lived since the 1990s . Everything was always weighed in his favor, including crooked judges (Castillo I and Maidana I) and refs (Cortez and Bayliss). Likewise with many of your other heroes like Andre Ward.
Could somebody explain to this retard that I hate Floyd Mayweather, am entirely without opinion on Andre Ward, and am not the person he thinks I am? It's like talking to a schizophrenic. The discussion is Klitschko and he's babbling at imaginary people about Floyd Mayweather and Joe Cortez. What an utter, utter freak.
bollox wrote:No they're not all time greats. The bar has been lowered so far that there ARE no more ATG's IMO. The door is shut
It looks to me that this generation of boxers from now on got to win more than world titles to be considered all time greats. The bar is been lowered like you've said.
I am trying to make a case for both brothers here.
Wladimir Klitschko accomplishments:
Record of 64-4, 53KOs
IBF World Heavyweight Champion (2006-2015). A period of nine years, making 18 successful title defenses which ranks third all time at heavyweight defenses of the title behind the greats Joe Louis (25) and Larry Holmes (20).
Was also NABF and European Heavyweight Champion
Won first 24 bouts
Defining Bout: W12 David Haye..."Successfully defends crown against the biggest threat of his title reign"
Other Defining bouts: WTKO7 Chris Byrd (II), WTKO6 Lamont Brewster (II), WKO10 Samuel Peter (II), WKO4 Jean Marck Mormerck, LTKO2 Corrie Sanders, and WTKO9 Ruslan Chagaev.
Also beat: Sultan Ibragimov (W12), Ray Mercer (WTKO6), Frans Botha (WTKO8), Monte Barrett (WTKO7), Axel Schulz (WTKO8), Eddie Chambers (WKO12), Alexander Povetkin (W12), and Bryant Jennings (W12).
Vitali Klitschko accomplishments:
Record: 45-2, 41 by KO.
WBC World Heavyweight Champion (2004-2012)
Made 12 title defenses in 8 years. Retired undefeated champion.
Won his first 27 bouts by knockout
Was also European Heavyweight Champion
Defining Bout: LTKO6 Lennox Lewis...June 21, 2003..."Unjustly stopped contest by cuts in a fight he was ahead"
Other Defining Bouts: WTKO8 Corrie Sanders, WTKO8 Samuel Peter, WTKO9 Juan Carlos Gomez, WTKO10 Tomaz Adamek and LTKO9 Chris Byrd.
Also beat Herbie Hide (WKO9), Larry Donald (WTKO10), Kirk Johnson (WTKO2), Danny Williams (WTKO8), and Shannon Briggs (W12)
I see that both brothers had outstanding careers.
My conclusion: They may not make the top 10 heavyweight all time list, mainly because some of their losses with no so great heavyweight boxers throw them out of the elite. But, their achievements cannot be ignored. Not enough great performances. And even if they were big and strong, their presence at the class did not spoke great volumes a la Ali, Louis, Dempsey or Tyson. Can we say that their eras were kind of dull? Do they had the fault that there were not enough noteworthy opponents? What if they had won all their fights? Is that the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY that they could've enter in the top ten heavyweight greats?
i think they are between 25 and 40 ATG heavies.
i believe they are both better than their records
and give many greats a difficult night, especially
vitali, but there are questions hanging over their
heads that you do not have with ATG10 people.
vitali seemed a rather passive defender of the
WBC belt, he fought whom he had to fight to
hold on to the title, but that was it. wladimir
seemed different in this respect to me, but there
were as well many no-names. and then of course
was his style which made heavy weight title fights
unprecedentedly boring. he gave safety first a
totally new meaning. you cannot expect exciting
title fights from a man who has to avoid being
punched at all.
and then there are these little things which i find
annoying, like wlad not rematching sanders and
purrity, but sending his brother. what a weird
idea.
in the end looking at there record alone i would
say wlad is around 15 and vitali 20, but then i would
punish them for the weird things i mentioned
above and each of these costs them 10 to 20 places.
having said that these lists finally boil down to real
names and while the big names from ali to dempsey
would fill in the first twenty relatively easy, then comes
the next tranche from machen to lyle and i would have
them at the end of this, so around 40. because you
clearly have to give them some credit. for example
not having them in a heavy top 100 is as ridiculous as
having them in the top 5.
and in the end one thing needs to be mentioned as
well: they never faced the second best man of their
time. now, one might have an understanding for this
choice, but it must be a factor as well when assessing
their ATG status.
all in all: too well managed styles and careers. but they
made the absolute best of their abilities and carried
themselves with style. still: happy they are gone.
Tuan_Jim wrote:Also, while we're at it, what is 'TUE'? This childish man BroughtonRulesRefuge keeps writing it in his weird slangy posts. Is TUE a boxer or some internet abbreviation?
I've noticed that too.
He seems to have a particular dislike of Larry Holmes too.
Either Larry Holmes owes him money or he's Rocky Marciano's wife!
Syntax Error wrote:
He seems to have a particular dislike of Larry Holmes too.
Either Larry Holmes owes him money or he's Rocky Marciano's wife!
- By your conclusions, you appear to have a love of Lar...insert images here...
Lar made himself a target as do you and your ilk. Couldn't carry Rocky's jock, bad mouthed Rocky, Ali, MSpinks, Cooney, Foreman, Tyson, Butterbean and most everyone else. I can't help his 1-5 record against existing champs of his day any more than I can help larded lumps claiming I was banned or all the blatantly racist posts and accusations. I was told I upset the delicate constitutions of your bullied by women, masturbation thread egos.
I'm thinking you sweeties could fry out with a racism in masturbation thread, now there's the ticket, but I won't be there. I'm only interested in boxing, so the choice is yours. Keep it real or keep it TUE for me to kick around.
Syntax Error wrote:
He seems to have a particular dislike of Larry Holmes too.
Either Larry Holmes owes him money or he's Rocky Marciano's wife!
- By your conclusions, you appear to have a love of Lar...insert images here...
Lar made himself a target as do you and your ilk. Couldn't carry Rocky's jock, bad mouthed Rocky, Ali, MSpinks, Cooney, Foreman, Tyson, Butterbean and most everyone else. I can't help his 1-5 record against existing champs of his day any more than I can help larded lumps claiming I was banned or all the blatantly racist posts and accusations. I was told I upset the delicate constitutions of your bullied by women, masturbation thread egos.
I'm thinking you sweeties could fry out with a racism in masturbation thread, now there's the ticket, but I won't be there. I'm only interested in boxing, so the choice is yours. Keep it real or keep it TUE for me to kick around.
I have no love for him; I just don't have an irrational hatred of him.
I agree, he's said some unpleasant things about other grown men who are quite capable of defending themselves and/or retaliating or not.
It seems weird that what has irked you the most about him is the way he says unpleasant things, yet you continually say unpleasant things about him.
Each to their own I suppose; I shall go off & 'study up' or whatever us folk who don't share your opinion get told to do.
Syntax Error wrote:
He seems to have a particular dislike of Larry Holmes too.
Either Larry Holmes owes him money or he's Rocky Marciano's wife!
- By your conclusions, you appear to have a love of Lar...insert images here...
Lar made himself a target as do you and your ilk. Couldn't carry Rocky's jock, bad mouthed Rocky, Ali, MSpinks, Cooney, Foreman, Tyson, Butterbean and most everyone else. I can't help his 1-5 record against existing champs of his day any more than I can help larded lumps claiming I was banned or all the blatantly racist posts and accusations. I was told I upset the delicate constitutions of your bullied by women, masturbation thread egos.
I'm thinking you sweeties could fry out with a racism in masturbation thread, now there's the ticket, but I won't be there. I'm only interested in boxing, so the choice is yours. Keep it real or keep it TUE for me to kick around.
I must be old, because I feel like I'm speaking a different language to this lad. 'I'm thinking you sweeties could fry out with a racism in masturbation thread' - I know all of these words in isolation, but as a sentence?
I am afraid I am going to have to say no to Wladimir. He fought in an era that suited him. If he had been around in the seventies, eighties, or nineties too many fighters would beat him.
Don't get me wrong I think he could his hold his own against most of the fighters but I think on any given day, Witherspoon, Page, Bonecrusher Smith and even Bruno could get to him. Apart from Tyson Bruno generally was winning his fights until he ran out of steam. I think that the fighters like a Ruddock, Smith or a Douglas who can lift would probably upset him at some point. Even guys like Carl Williams and Tony Tubbs could out box him if they don't get hit. If Williams can go close to upsetting Holmes, and Tubbs go close to upsetting Bowe, its not inconceivable they could do the same to Wlad. Wlad fought a lot of good athletes but not fighter types. If Wlad fought, Holmes, Berbick, Bonecrusher, Tucker,Bruno, Lewis, Bowe, Macall, Tyson, Ruddock, Holyfield. He loses at least seven different fighters, I think Bowe, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis beat hi and two of the others would be the Sanders, Purity of his generation. If he fought the five top 20 heavyweights above and was ko'd 5 times as I believe he would be, and then lost two more fights to a Sanders,Brewster Purity type we, don't have this thread.
WHO was the best fighter Wlad beat. I even think the Holmes Tyson beat could outbox Wlad. If Tubbs doesn't get caught he might beat Wlad.
Tyson really only lost to Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis. I think he was beyond shot v Williams and Mcbride. I never saw anything from Wlad to convince me he was better that Tokyo Douglas, yet alone Holyfield Tyson. Wladimir has lost to four fighters who Douglas would beat.
Props to Wladimir for keeping fit and having the pride to stay focused and dominate this era, but he wouldn't beat Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis or Bowe or his brother. Imagine if Vitali and Wladimir fought each other circa 2008 and Wlad lost, this thread would not exist.
Vitali wasn't around long enough and lost to the two best heavyweights he fought and couldn't fight the other one who was his brother. The most generous thing you could say is that Vitali may have beaten the fourth best heavyweight of his generation. That cant be a high enough threshold for greatness, the fact he couldn't fight Wlad or beat Lewis or Bird must count against him, there may have been circumstances in those loses. But then Ali may have never beaten Frazier if not for Foreman taking something out of him.
Wlad also lost his title to Tyson Fury who is no Liston, Ali, Frazier, Holyfield. His defenders would once argue he couldn't be outboxed but he was. I honestly thing that Lewis and Bowe would have tortured him.
They beat most opponents they fought and dominated their eras you can't do much more than that and should both be considered great heavyweights for their time.
Rexob wrote:They beat most opponents they fought and dominated their eras you can't do much more than that and should both be considered great heavyweights for their time.
I think that you're right. They should be top 20 or top 25 all time great heavyweight boxers. I don't see none of the brothers in the top 10 at all. Top 15? A maybe. I believe they are right placed between 15-25 spots. It's fair enough.
This topic has recently become popular once again in other threads, so I decided to put my 5 cents here.
Klitschkos are all-time greats for sure. Top-20 range, no doubt about that. Wlad is in the upper part of the second tenner, Vitali is in the lower one.
First of all, they scored some impressive numbers, what made them both noticeable forever. But, of course, numbers aren't everything, they must be backed up. Ironically in Vitali's case numbers are even a bit against him in some sense, cause on paper he has two losses, which has some things to be argued, when you watch actual fights. A one loss due to an injury in a fight, what was all Vitali, and this was a fight against a future top competitor of the division and a talented boxer in general - Chris Byrd. The second loss was more convincing, but that was to a boxer from the very top of all-time lists - Lennox Lewis. So the thing is, Vitali has never been behind on the scorecards, which is quite impressive.
Vitali was able to achieve that with his excellent ability to use his height and reach. That is a skill too and a truly important one. Vitali was far from being technically perfect, but he had near-perfect jab. It was a one of the best jabs ever, a one of the most frustrating for the oppoinents. It was like a wall, it was a perfect set up for right hand. In addition to that Vitali had a granite chin, so he became a very inconvenient opponent for anybody, you had to break through that jab, but you weren't likely to succeed even if you landed.
Wlad was better overall. In contrast to Vitali he had not hard chin at all. And it affected on his career, when he was knocked out for several times at the early stages of it. But Wlad was able to re-establish his career and become the best guy in the division for a decade. That is an achievement of the all-time great without any doubt. Wlad was a technical boxer-puncher and with Manny Steward he accepted a rational approach of fighting, what made him no less inconvenient boxer, than his brother. Wlad was dominating everyone.
Wlad was a one, who faced the best opposition possible, overcoming Vitali in this. The greatness is achieved through dominating in your own era. Yeah, there was no other ATGs in Wlad's era, but how many ATGs in primes had been defeated by Tyson or Holmes. Wlad had fought almost every top competitor of his time and he had always been dominant, the only exception was Fury bout, even Joshua was struggling hard against Wlad after that. Wlad displayed really high skills through his career and this reflected on his achievements.
Ali and Louis are streets ahead. I don't think either matches up to Johnson. Holmes? Don't think so. Foreman won in two eras. Holyfield and Lewis both have better records. Dempsey and Tunney although great fighters, at heavy their records are not up to that much. Tyson and Frazier...prob both greater. Rocky only made a handful of defences and wasn't at the top for long.
So for me the k bros are about 10 and 11. They tick a lot of boxes but are not higher as the quality of opp not great (or didn't look so). They fought everyone around though for years.
Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holmes
Foreman
Holyfield
Lewis
Frazier
Tyson
Wlad
Vit
Ali and Louis are streets ahead. I don't think either matches up to Johnson. Holmes? Don't think so. Foreman won in two eras. Holyfield and Lewis both have better records. Dempsey and Tunney although great fighters, at heavy their records are not up to that much. Tyson and Frazier...prob both greater. Rocky only made a handful of defences and wasn't at the top for long.
So for me the k bros are about 10 and 11. They tick a lot of boxes but are not higher as the quality of opp not great (or didn't look so). They fought everyone around though for years.
Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holmes
Foreman
Holyfield
Lewis
Frazier
Tyson
Wlad
Vit
Vitali fought everyone around? You sure? I mean he did tackle Kevin Johnson, sosnowski & Danny Williams.
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