Biggest unfulfilled potential?

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Hide is a good shout.

I watched a lot of his early bouts when I was student in East London.

He was really fast, powerful & aggressive.

He had bone crunching power for such relatively small guy.

I do believe that if he wasn't crazy & the cruiserweight division had a higher limit in his era, he'd be a probable top 5 CW in history.

[orbtastic]

Hide always struck me as someone who developed physically but not mentally.

His book's a bit odd but an interesting read. I remember one of those SKY special things where they showed him in his Norwich mansion, dancing alone in his built-in nightclub.

Fairly sure that making the cruiser limit was the least of his troubles, the money fights were not there for him (or anyone, really).

[Crease]

I'd say that there's a compelling argument to say that Michael Watson never reached his gull potential.

The man wad certainly good enough to win a World Title, it just never happened for him.

[Crease]

Would it be unfair to nominate Herol Graham?

X2

You beat me to it. Herol was one of the shrewdest operators of his era. I still say that he's one of the best defensive boxers that i've ever seen.

[Bodyshot3]

Hide always struck me as someone who developed physically but not mentally.

His book's a bit odd but an interesting read. I remember one of those SKY special things where they showed him in his Norwich mansion, dancing alone in his built-in nightclub.

Fairly sure that making the cruiser limit was the least of his troubles, the money fights were not there for him (or anyone, really).

Herbie definitely needed a mentor who could provide direction and encouragement with issues other than just his boxing....and yes, I remember the Sky piece and thought it seemed rather sad. He should have had a nice apartment in town and not be out in the middle of absolutely nowhere in a huge gaff.

Think there was a lonely and vulnerable side to Herbie and that in turn is probably why all sorts of wrong folk got invited out to his mansion for those parties and I suspect he was taken advantage off more often than not.

It is also a shame for Herbie that timing-wise he was not able to cash in on the German boxing boom which enabled several cruiserweights to get some decent paydays or get involved in the Mormeck-Haye mix either. The division finally took off at the wrong time for Herbie.

[Tuan_Jim]

He turned pro at 17 which is obviously very young, especially for a heavyweight, but Bugner then fought too often and was arguably rushed through the ranks too quickly. Bugner was fighting experienced American heavyweights by the time he was 19 or 20 and was in for the British and European titles days after his 21st birthday.

You seem to be judging Bugner by the slovenly progress of modern heavyweights, who are lifelong fatsos, turn to boxing late and have their records padded for years before finally, in their mid-30s, contesting a title of some description.

Nothing you state about Bugner was unusual for the time. Heavyweights used to be exciting because they were generally in their 20s, in the prime of their life, fighting each other.

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I'd say that there's a compelling argument to say that Michael Watson never reached his gull potential.

The man wad certainly good enough to win a World Title, it just never happened for him.

True.

He arguably beat Eubank the first time around & was handing Eubank his buttocks in the rematch until disaster struck.

[palooka]

Jim McDonnell was a touch unlucky, he faced 2 brilliant champions and bashed McGuigan - he'd have been a champion for sure today. The Vice knockout ruined him.

[Tuan_Jim]

Bugner's trajectory may not have been unusual in the 1930s or '40s but it was by the standards of the time when he was boxing. Name one of Bugner's contemporaries that turned pro at 17 and had had 50 fights - including going in with some of the world's best heavyweights - by the time he was 23.

Oh, right, yeah, nobody.

Mike Tyson turned pro at 19 and was undisputed heavyweight champion at 22, having mopped up the division.

[palooka]

I think Tyson was the exception and not the rule.

[stevedoc]

Jim McDonnell was a touch unlucky, he faced 2 brilliant champions and bashed McGuigan - he'd have been a champion for sure today. The Vice knockout ruined him.

jim was a great classic boxer with a great engine, when my brother pat signed to fight him i was 14/15 and said at the time it was a terrible fight for pat and it turned out to be pat couldn't get near him god knows what pats manager was thinking as he was in talks with barney eastwood about fighting mcguigan and they took the mcdonell fight instead in a 10 rounder when the mcguigan fight would of been british and european title.

[Counter-puncher]

Bugner's trajectory may not have been unusual in the 1930s or '40s but it was by the standards of the time when he was boxing. Name one of Bugner's contemporaries that turned pro at 17 and had had 50 fights - including going in with some of the world's best heavyweights - by the time he was 23.

Oh, right, yeah, nobody.

Mike Tyson turned pro at 19 and was undisputed heavyweight champion at 22, having mopped up the division.

none of which either contradicts his previous points, or indeed vindicates any of yours. you're aware of the concept that a single exception does not disprove a rule. Indeed, for you to vindicate your statement that 'Nothing you state about Bugner was unusual for the time', you will need several examples to contradict the following:

Name one of Bugner's contemporaries that turned pro at 17 and had had 50 fights - including going in with some of the world's best heavyweights - by the time he was 23

[Counter-puncher]

Bugner's trajectory may not have been unusual in the 1930s or '40s but it was by the standards of the time when he was boxing. Name one of Bugner's contemporaries that turned pro at 17 and had had 50 fights - including going in with some of the world's best heavyweights - by the time he was 23.

Oh, right, yeah, nobody.

Mike Tyson turned pro at 19 and was undisputed heavyweight champion at 22, having mopped up the division.

So, yes, that's right - Tyson was two years older (and had also had a more extensive amateur career) than Bugner when he turned pro. Nor did Tyson face anybody of the quality of Ali or Frazier in his early 20s.

Bugner, by the way, had over pro 20 fights, many of which were against highly-rated opponents, under his belt when he was still 19 (ie the same age Tyson - who was hardly a run-of-the mill heavyweight, either - turned professional).

But, yeah, your point that "nothing about Bugner was unusual for the time" is obviously spot on

a-ha,

[Tuan_Jim]

It's so sad when grown men like counter puncher pursue these silly online vendettas. Call off your poodles gentlemen, Mike Tyson was my lazy (but correct) rebuttal to the argument "nobody" had turned pro as a teen and fought a lot of world class heavyweights by the age of 23. I wasn't interested in a debate earlier but, now I am engaged, will go away and have a think.

[Counter-puncher]

Turned pro at 17, and fifty fights including world class heavyweight by the age of 23, after hardly any amateur fights was the assertion you're looking to challenge, just for the purposes of clarity. And the assertion wasn't that 'nobody' had done it,but that it wasn't common or was unusual.

[Old bones Ian]

I don't know about this guy, but heard him mentioned in other threads, Graham Brett.
Apparently he had a good amateur record, could punch like a mule, but liked the booze and trouble outside the ring.
He ended up inside for killing a guy with a punch outside a pub.

[Tuan_Jim]

Listen to the man-child hurriedly having to shift the goal posts as it dawns on him the point he so recklessly flung himself into arguing doesn't actually stand up [not for the first time I might add].

To underline my original reply to the Bugner post, here's just a spatter of icing on the cake:

Floyd Patterson, turned pro 17, by 23 was world heavyweight champ with multiple defences,

George Chuvalo, turned pro 18, by 23 had boxed a slew of top class opponents,

Jerry Quarry, turned pro 19, by 23 had boxed for the world heavyweight title,

Big Cat Williams, turned pro 18, by 23 had boxed 40+ fights and numerous contenders,

Ernie Terrell, turned pro 18, by 23 had boxed numerous contenders,

Henry Clark, turned pro 19, by 23 had boxed a scary number of brutes,

Cassius Clay, turned pro 18, by 23 was world heavyweight champ

Must I go on?

[Bodyshot3]

Jim McDonnell was a touch unlucky, he faced 2 brilliant champions and bashed McGuigan - he'd have been a champion for sure today. The Vice knockout ruined him.

Fair point Palooka and Jim was a very, very tidy fighter....being a tad pedantic, I'd suggest that he probably belongs in an alternative thread covering best modern Brit fighters never to win a world title. Losing to Mitchell and Nelson was a de facto experience for nearly everyone

I also like the way Jim has stuck with De Gale and what they've now achieved together.

[keithmoonhangover]

Tony Jeffries I always thought would of done well as a Pro. Especially with his Olympic pedigree and fanbase.

Jaffa is a really canny lad. Big shame about his premature retirement, He's living the dream out in California now with his wife and two kids.

[palooka]

Tony Jeffries I always thought would of done well as a Pro. Especially with his Olympic pedigree and fanbase.

Jaffa is a really canny lad. Big shame about his premature retirement, He's living the dream out in California now with his wife and two kids.

His dad had plenty of money to support him and help him with his future though, didn't he? It always helps.

[keithmoonhangover]

Tony Jeffries I always thought would of done well as a Pro. Especially with his Olympic pedigree and fanbase.

Jaffa is a really canny lad. Big shame about his premature retirement, He's living the dream out in California now with his wife and two kids.

His dad had plenty of money to support him and help him with his future though, didn't he? It always helps.

Phil's got a few quid, but he's not a rich man.

[palooka]

I wanted to say 'Thank you' for adding me to that boxing group, it's excellent - I was nattering with Nate Campbell and Wilbert 'Vampire' Johnson - it's beyond cool. Thank you Fletch

[Tuan_Jim]

Listen to the man-child hurriedly having to shift the goal posts as it dawns on him the point he so recklessly flung himself into arguing doesn't actually stand up [not for the first time I might add].

To underline my original reply to the Bugner post, here's just a spatter of icing on the cake:

Floyd Patterson, turned pro 17, by 23 was world heavyweight champ with multiple defences,

George Chuvalo, turned pro 18, by 23 had boxed a slew of top class opponents,

Jerry Quarry, turned pro 19, by 23 had boxed for the world heavyweight title,

Big Cat Williams, turned pro 18, by 23 had boxed 40+ fights and numerous contenders,

Ernie Terrell, turned pro 18, by 23 had boxed numerous contenders,

Henry Clark, turned pro 19, by 23 had boxed a scary number of brutes,

Cassius Clay, turned pro 18, by 23 was world heavyweight champ

Must I go on?

So let's get this straight: you've come up with one leading fighter who turned pro at 17, Floyd Patterson - though I believe Patterson was actually a middleweight when he first turned over. Nor was he really a contemporary of Bugner's (he must have turned professional about 10 years earlier than Bugner, and their careers didn't overlap by much).

All the others you have cited were, as you state above, in fact older than Bugner when they turned pro and none of them had as many fights in such a short time. The fact is Joe Bugner was unusual inasmuch as he turned professional unusually young and was an exceptionally busy fighter whilst still in his youth. They're just facts.

What is debatable is the effect all this had on him. I think it meant Bugner didn't achieve his full potential, though you may not. Let's talk about that, eh, as there's no point in trying to pretend that Bugner's career trajectory was in any way the norm for a heavyweight boxer, especially in the period in which he was fighting.

Since I made my original point, that there was 'nothing unusual about heavyweights in their 20s in the prime of their life fighting each other' - a fact as unassailable as grass being green, or the sky being blue - you and the other guy have had to keep introducing more and more qualifiers in order to preserve your argument. Length of amateur career - what division they turned professional in - must be an exact contemporary of Bugner etc etc. Why don't you add further qualifiers, such as they have to have blond curly hair, and be from Hungary, and have a wife named Marlene Bugner? It's ridiculous.

Bottom line, it took me less than 10 minutes to find a number of high profile examples of men turning pro as teens and accomplishing a lot - often far more than Bugner - by their early 20s. The pattern is obvious. Anyone reading this and with the inclination knows they can, with just a little more research, produce an even longer list of heavyweights who turned pro 'unusually young' (around 17) and had a lot of fights.

As far as Bugner and the OP goes, he's a good example of unfulfilled potential. Didn't seem to want to be there in his prime but could never bring himself to stop when it was too late. He aged well for a guy with so many fights, was still world class in the late 80s.

[Controversial]

I don't know about this guy, but heard him mentioned in other threads, Graham Brett.
Apparently he had a good amateur record, could punch like a mule, but liked the booze and trouble outside the ring.
He ended up inside for killing a guy with a punch outside a pub.

He used to post on boxrec, his username is Graham Brett

[Tuan_Jim]

Graham Brett killed a man unprovoked with a punch & was sentenced to 7 years.

7 years. For killing a man.

Our pathetic, ineffectual, soft on crime British 'justice'.