Bob Fitzsimmons v Harry Greb

[klompton]

For those of you who dont know McGoorty is none other than Greg from Australia who has been carrying on a personal vendetta against me for the past few days and has now decided to follow me here. Ignore him. His raving and asinine behavior are the product of terminal brain cancer which is causing him to react irrationally and believe that anyone from Australia is unbeatable and anyone not from Australia is the product of a conspiracy. Pity him.

[Oiky]

fitzsimmons would beat greb all about the place

[klompton]

fitzsimmons would beat greb all about the place

And then you woke up...

[Dancin' Dan]

When you consider Greb's domination of so many top heavyweights and Light Heavies hard to think Fitz would win. While Fitz was certainly a great fighter.....Greb might have been the best of all time. Even blind he never took a beating. Most newspapers even had him winning the Flowers fights. Dempsey admitted to having a horrible time with him. Tunney only lost once..... To Greb badly. Greb also didn't care about the color line fighting all comers. Last he was hated by many in the business by the end of his career. He pushed so hard to fight Dempsey. He apparently would pretend to be drunk while only drinking water. Still can't believe he fought forty-five times one year against top contenders. It is an all time greats list. He also had a steel chin and buzz saw style that kept everyone on their Back foot. Hard to imagine Fitz winning but maybe he could have landed another miracle shot. I would pick Greb to win 99 of a 100 times.

[klompton]

When you consider Greb's domination of so many top heavyweights and Light Heavies hard to think Fitz would win. While Fitz was certainly a great fighter.....Greb might have been the best of all time. Even blind he never took a beating. Most newspapers even had him winning the Flowers fights. Dempsey admitted to having a horrible time with him. Tunney only lost once..... To Greb badly. Greb also didn't care about the color line fighting all comers. Last he was hated by many in the business by the end of his career. He pushed so hard to fight Dempsey. He apparently would pretend to be drunk while only drinking water. Still can't believe he fought forty-five times one year against top contenders. It is an all time greats list. He also had a steel chin and buzz saw style that kept everyone on their Back foot. Hard to imagine Fitz winning but maybe he could have landed another miracle shot. I would pick Greb to win 99 of a 100 times.

I think it depends on whether or not Fitzsimmons gets to wear that diaper into the ring that he often wore. Greb might laugh so hard that Fitz would get a shot on him and lay him out. That's the only way I see Fitz beating him: The diaper strategy.

[pound per pound]

When you consider Greb's domination of so many top heavyweights and Light Heavies hard to think Fitz would win. While Fitz was certainly a great fighter.....Greb might have been the best of all time. Even blind he never took a beating. Most newspapers even had him winning the Flowers fights. Dempsey admitted to having a horrible time with him. Tunney only lost once..... To Greb badly. Greb also didn't care about the color line fighting all comers. Last he was hated by many in the business by the end of his career. He pushed so hard to fight Dempsey. He apparently would pretend to be drunk while only drinking water. Still can't believe he fought forty-five times one year against top contenders. It is an all time greats list. He also had a steel chin and buzz saw style that kept everyone on their Back foot. Hard to imagine Fitz winning but maybe he could have landed another miracle shot. I would pick Greb to win 99 of a 100 times.

I think it depends on whether or not Fitzsimmons gets to wear that diaper into the ring that he often wore. Greb might laugh so hard that Fitz would get a shot on him and lay him out. That's the only way I see Fitz beating him: The diaper strategy.

Fitzsimmons would say Greb should be the one wearing the diaper. One left hook smash to the head or body, and Greb might crap in his trunks.

I like Fitz here. He simply hits to hard, and Greb's attacking style means he's getting caught sooner or later. Greb lacked the firepower to hurt Fitz.

[klompton]

When you consider Greb's domination of so many top heavyweights and Light Heavies hard to think Fitz would win. While Fitz was certainly a great fighter.....Greb might have been the best of all time. Even blind he never took a beating. Most newspapers even had him winning the Flowers fights. Dempsey admitted to having a horrible time with him. Tunney only lost once..... To Greb badly. Greb also didn't care about the color line fighting all comers. Last he was hated by many in the business by the end of his career. He pushed so hard to fight Dempsey. He apparently would pretend to be drunk while only drinking water. Still can't believe he fought forty-five times one year against top contenders. It is an all time greats list. He also had a steel chin and buzz saw style that kept everyone on their Back foot. Hard to imagine Fitz winning but maybe he could have landed another miracle shot. I would pick Greb to win 99 of a 100 times.

I think it depends on whether or not Fitzsimmons gets to wear that diaper into the ring that he often wore. Greb might laugh so hard that Fitz would get a shot on him and lay him out. That's the only way I see Fitz beating him: The diaper strategy.

Fitzsimmons would say Greb should be the one wearing the diaper. One left hook smash to the head or body, and Greb might crap in his trunks.

I like Fitz here. He simply hits to hard, and Greb's attacking style means he's getting caught sooner or later. Greb lacked the firepower to hurt Fitz.

Greb faced bigger men who hit every bit as hard as Fitz and were more skilled. Fitz was a dinosaur. He came from an era when heavyweights were almost totally devoid of skill and it shows in the films of him. Greb would have dismantled him.

[cfang]

I think it depends on whether or not Fitzsimmons gets to wear that diaper into the ring that he often wore. Greb might laugh so hard that Fitz would get a shot on him and lay him out. That's the only way I see Fitz beating him: The diaper strategy.

Fitzsimmons would say Greb should be the one wearing the diaper. One left hook smash to the head or body, and Greb might crap in his trunks.

I like Fitz here. He simply hits to hard, and Greb's attacking style means he's getting caught sooner or later. Greb lacked the firepower to hurt Fitz.

Greb faced bigger men who hit every bit as hard as Fitz and were more skilled. Fitz was a dinosaur. He came from an era when heavyweights were almost totally devoid of skill and it shows in the films of him. Greb would have dismantled him.

If anyone views the films of boxers from the late victorian era to the 1920s with a cold eye, you can see there's a quantum leap in terms of boxing style. The reason being that guys like fitz fought with bare knuckles. The style of boxing seems more suited to that game. Lots of single shots and they are almost scared to get hit - so much pulling back and moving away. I guess its cos you can break your hands if punches arent placed correctly and you cant really afford to get hit too often as you get damaged. It's all you see in the fitz corbett fight. Move forward to see guys in the late teens and 1920s and it's a whole different level of speed and boxers come forward, throw punches in bunches and are happy to take a few to land more. It's more of a fast and active sport and much more like what we see today - its very very similar to modern boxing. Fitz was a great fighting man of that there is no doubt but taking them as they were, I agree Greb would have dismantled fitz. Greb was exceptional and a class above.

People looove to lionise the guys from the 1890s because it was the start of boxing as we know it and they are like frontiersmen really and so fall into a kind of legend category. Im not taking anything away from these guys but its hard to believe that guys like corbett who had like 20 fights only knew more than anyone who came after them. I think boxers/trainers learn from the past and the reason for the standard being so high in Greb's era was soo many people were boxing and the changes in style were due to people gettng used to boxing with bigger gloves.

Grebs record is in my view unsurpassed in the history of boxing.

[pound per pound]

I think it depends on whether or not Fitzsimmons gets to wear that diaper into the ring that he often wore. Greb might laugh so hard that Fitz would get a shot on him and lay him out. That's the only way I see Fitz beating him: The diaper strategy.

Fitzsimmons would say Greb should be the one wearing the diaper. One left hook smash to the head or body, and Greb might crap in his trunks.

I like Fitz here. He simply hits to hard, and Greb's attacking style means he's getting caught sooner or later. Greb lacked the firepower to hurt Fitz.

Greb faced bigger men who hit every bit as hard as Fitz and were more skilled. Fitz was a dinosaur. He came from an era when heavyweights were almost totally devoid of skill and it shows in the films of him. Greb would have dismantled him.

Who are these bigger men that Greb fought? Fitz knocked out several men over 190 pounds.

Wait a second, are you saying Greb fought men who hit harder than Jim Jeffries, Peter Maher or Tom Sharkey? Sorry mate that's bunk.

[klompton]

Fitzsimmons would say Greb should be the one wearing the diaper. One left hook smash to the head or body, and Greb might crap in his trunks.

I like Fitz here. He simply hits to hard, and Greb's attacking style means he's getting caught sooner or later. Greb lacked the firepower to hurt Fitz.

Greb faced bigger men who hit every bit as hard as Fitz and were more skilled. Fitz was a dinosaur. He came from an era when heavyweights were almost totally devoid of skill and it shows in the films of him. Greb would have dismantled him.

Who are these bigger men that Greb fought? Fitz knocked out several men over 190 pounds.

Wait a second, are you saying Greb fought men who hit harder than Jim Jeffries, Peter Maher or Tom Sharkey? Sorry mate that's bunk.

Who are all of these great 190 pounders that Fitz knocked out?

Fitz lost to Jeffries, he didnt knock him out, and I certainly think Jeffries power is overrated. He used his size and strength more to wear men down than just blast them out with power. Study these guys, their records, who they fought, and the time they were fighting in and its pretty underwhelming. Its not uncommon for these guys to have spent most of their careers fighting men who had absolutely no experience and never would again. Thats not a surprise considering these fights were being organized often times in the backroom of a saloon by the owner who was staging a fight between a professional and some drunken miner, or the local blacksmith. Tom Sharkey was shorter than Greb and wasnt a whole lot bigger, often weighing in the 170s. Peter Maher likewise spent most of his career in the 170s and was knocked out 20 times in his career. Shall I pull out one of the many guys Greb fought who had over 100 fights but managed to get knocked out in a ton of them? Would you be equally impressed? I see nothing in the records of Sharkey or Maher to elevate them to some higher stature than any of the HW contenders Greb fought and beat. The fact is that all of the actual big men that Fitz knocked out were pure shit. Knocking out the village blacksmith who has never had a fight and never will again is a far cry from knocking out a real HW contender who weighed 190 pounds, much less beating him. Ed Dunkhorst was the best man over 190 that Fitz knocked out and Dunkhorst was pure garbage. He was just insanely huge for an era when the average height was 5'6" and the average weight of an adult male was about 145 lbs. You dont see anyone bragging about Greb knocking out white hope HW Al Benedict in two rounds despite Benedict being over 6'2" and weighing 210 pounds yet Fitz fans want to do that with Fitz. In beating Joe Cox Greb notched a better win against a big man than anyone Fitz beat weighing over 190 and Cox wasnt anything special but at least he managed to beat some contenders and a future champion. In fighting and beating guys like Bill Brennan, Bob Roper, Jack Renault, Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Charlie Weinert, etc Greb was beating men every bit as big as the guys Fitz fought and the difference is they were better fighters, more experienced, more skilled. If you think Im wrong just look at every scrap of film we have from the 1890s of boxing including the footage of Fitzsimmons. They all look like garbage. They couldnt box their way out of a wet paperbag. Fitz' power is one thing but by Greb's time you needed more than just a big punch to make it to the top. For that reason its unfair to compare Fitz to Greb because Fitz was from a different time when the sport was in its infancy. There werent the fights, fighters, or trainers to develop the talent that came later. Why dont you compare Bill Brennan's fight against Jack Dempsey and tell me that he isnt a better fighter than Fitz. The man weighs 195 pounds, stood 6'1", was a banger, and had better skills than Fitz. He also gave Jack Dempsey hell in their second fight. Fitz was a more important fighter and certainly had greater impact but Bill Brennan was bigger, stronger, hit as hard as any HW needs to, and was a better boxer.

[BoxBuzz]

So for the record Klompton, You're going with Greb in any Greb vs Fits hypothetical.

Am I correct?

[cfang]

So for the record Klompton, You're going with Greb in any Greb vs Fits hypothetical.

Am I correct?

Id go with Fitz being able to make a better horse shoe than Greb but when it comes to queensbury rules boxing I'd take Greb over Fitz 10/10, a better, faster and more skilled fighter. It is unfair though to compare as I've said before I think there was a big jump from the 1890s to the 1920s and I don't want to be seen to talk down Bob Fitzimmons who was clearly an incredibly brave and fabulous fighter but with Greb, we're talking Sugar Ray Robinson level so somewhat beyond mere mortals :-)

[misterpunch]

boxing advanced too far for fitz to beat harry - the human windmill fought in an era of better technique - plus he was almost peerless within it! he does not lose to ruby Robert in any scenario I can think of

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Seems like a certain amount of vested interests at play here as to fight outcome.

As an independent type, I tend to be more to a comprehensive type look at not only wins and losses count, but circumstances which vary widely in boxing such as injury, age, home cooked officiating, inexperience, past prime, incompetent officiating, weather, ect.

Both are all time great elites with different styles. Greb one of the few elites lacking KO power, and although a plethora of fights, most were home setting type decisions with more unregulated newspaper decisions than regular ones. Fitz is the ultimate immigrant from South England to New Zealand, to Australia, to the US with serious KO power. Few of the greatest fighters had to manage always being an outsider. To call him backward because he grew out of the last of the bareknuck era is considerably more backward given all the great fighters he mentored such as Joe Gans and Jeff Clark. Gans of course had different natural attributes, but is still considered one of the most skilled fighters ever. What they mean is that they don't like Fitz's straight up measured offense and counterpunching style, much like JMM today.

In a short fight, say 6-8 rounds that the swarming Greb specialized in, we'd have to favor him by decision, however 10+ rounds is a lot of time for the stubborn Fitz to finally get in a homerun shot that ultimately leads to KO City. Fitz was the star of the first ever filmed blockbuster that ushered in Hollywood and movie theaters. He and Corbett were the impetus for Thomas Edison to slowly extend out technology to finally capture such a momentous event that juiced up the American and International communities like no human sporting event had ever done with his solar plexis punch. Don't think Greb could catch up with the fleet footed Corbett, and even if he were to win that decision, it wouldn't have near the same impact.

So I like Fitz if we go to a championship type match up as he won't have to worry about Grebs power, and if Greb thinks he don't have a care in the world, well, he sure won't asleep on the canvas. I'd never write off Greb of course, but he'd be pushing the wrong Fitz buttons in the prefight, sharpening Fitz's focus for the kill. Nobody could ever mess around a prime Fitz.

[keithmoonhangover]

boxing advanced too far for fitz to beat harry - the human windmill fought in an era of better technique - plus he was almost peerless within it! he does not lose to ruby Robert in any scenario I can think of

What if Bob hits him in the slats?

[klompton]

boxing advanced too far for fitz to beat harry - the human windmill fought in an era of better technique - plus he was almost peerless within it! he does not lose to ruby Robert in any scenario I can think of

What if Bob hits him in the slats?

He better use a handful of rice because cluelessly following him around the ring like a mummy might have worked on an equally unskilled corbett but a guy that had the benefit of 30 yrs of evolved technique and who was known to start fast and finish faster in 20 round fights isnt losing to Fitz.

The idea that Fitz would tire greb or catch up to him in a long contest is even more ludicrous. Fitz has three knockouts after the tenth round and only travelled beyond that distance a half dozen times. Greb has more experience in longer fights than Fitz does by a long long way and was well known for his inhuman stamina. Fitz' best shot is to land a lucky punch early and stop him otherwise he gets outpointed and embarrassed.

[cfang]

boxing advanced too far for fitz to beat harry - the human windmill fought in an era of better technique - plus he was almost peerless within it! he does not lose to ruby Robert in any scenario I can think of

What if Bob hits him in the slats?

He better use a handful of rice because cluelessly following him around the ring like a mummy might have worked on an equally unskilled corbett but a guy that had the benefit of 30 yrs of evolved technique and who was known to start fast and finish faster in 20 round fights isnt losing to Fitz.

The idea that Fitz would tire greb or catch up to him in a long contest is even more ludicrous. Fitz has three knockouts after the tenth round and only travelled beyond that distance a half dozen times. Greb has more experience in longer fights than Fitz does by a long long way and was well known for his inhuman stamina. Fitz' best shot is to land a lucky punch early and stop him otherwise he gets outpointed and embarrassed.

[keithmoonhangover]

boxing advanced too far for fitz to beat harry - the human windmill fought in an era of better technique - plus he was almost peerless within it! he does not lose to ruby Robert in any scenario I can think of

What if Bob hits him in the slats?

He better use a handful of rice because cluelessly following him around the ring like a mummy might have worked on an equally unskilled corbett but a guy that had the benefit of 30 yrs of evolved technique and who was known to start fast and finish faster in 20 round fights isnt losing to Fitz.

The idea that Fitz would tire greb or catch up to him in a long contest is even more ludicrous. Fitz has three knockouts after the tenth round and only travelled beyond that distance a half dozen times. Greb has more experience in longer fights than Fitz does by a long long way and was well known for his inhuman stamina. Fitz' best shot is to land a lucky punch early and stop him otherwise he gets outpointed and embarrassed.

I agree that Greb is a tough ask for Bob, I think you are underestimating him by comparing him to a mummy.

[Cap]

I don't often agree with friend Klompton, but having re-read a lot about the Golden Era lately, I have to say Fitz would not do well against a swarming windmill like Greb. Greb easily outpoints Fitz.

Now, unfortunately, though there is little film of Fitz there is, as everyone knows, absolutely none on Greb. All we know from news accounts is that he threw punches from every angle and did it in every round. He could be clocked however. A second-rate light heavy named Soldier Jones nearly did him in once, so a quality slugger might have done the same if Greb had been forced to fight with closed fists and without excessive use of elbows, head, shoulders, etc. When you look at old fight films and see how often guys got away with what are now illegal tactics it's not hard to imagine that many refs turned a blind eye to things that Greb did. Hey. That was boxing in those days. If someone punched you in the throat or thumbed you in the eye and you complained to the ref [often an ex-fighter himself], chances are he'd tell you to do the same back. Look at what Galento got away with against Lou Nova.

One day a film of Greb will finally emerge and the mystery of his marvellous ring career will be revealed.

[Boilermaker]

Bump.

Just because i have been meaning to get around to finishing the analysis of grebs fighters one day and this makes the thread easier to find.

[elmersalsa]

It's a great topic. Both were clearly considered as the best fighter of their generation. The great Bob Fitzsimmons was the best pound per pound fighter of the 1890s. And Harry Greb was the best fighter of the 1920s.

Fitzsimmons could make a case as a top 5 pound per pound great. So does Greb.

But, I rate Greb over Ruby Robert at middleweight and pound per pound.

For me,
Greb @ #5
Fitzs @ #13

It's just that in my opinion, there were 12 more incredible boxers than Fitz. A great, great boxer no doubt. A true all time pound per pound great.

[elmersalsa]

Well, folks. It's strange, but I have a change of heart. Considering of what I have read, and looking deep into the great Bob Fitzsimmons record, I had to admit that he is a top 6 all time pound per pound great. No doubt about that. He was really incredible. The first man to win 3 world championships in 3 different weight classes. He fought competitively for at least 20 years before retiring in 1914. He started his career in 1885. So, he fought for 29 years! Incredible longevity. Of his 61 wins, he stopped 57 foes! Think about it. He didn't stop them in one weight class alone. He did it in 3 weight classes. He got a KO percentage of 93.4. And he won the heavyweight crown being Middleweight Champion. And who did he stopped to win the heavyweight crown? James J. Corbett.

This is something to consider. He gotta be at least a top 10 pound per pound all time great fighter.

I got him ranked at #6 right now.

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Harry Greb
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Floyd Mayweather, Jr
9. Willie Pep
10. Ezzard Charles

Maybe I overrated the great Willie Pep very high. Maybe I got carried away with his 230 wins. But, out of those 230 wins, he should have had more wins against top 100 ATGS. He only beat the great Sandy Saddler and Manuel Ortiz. But, he didn't risk to fight the other top lightweights of his time like the greats Ike Williams, Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery. Plus, he got stucked at featherweight. He never challenged for the lightweight crown. But, his winning streaks were unbelievable. And he, like the great Ezzard Charles, beat the very best of his weight class. Plus Saddler beat him 3 times out of 4 fights.

Saying that. You learn something every day. I did see and knew that Fitz was a great boxer, but, reading this thread, I have a great change of heart.

Thanks boilermaker for that.

[Ambling Alp II]

My criticism of Fitzsimmons is what happened when he had a title. He did win the middleweight, heavyweight, and light heavyweight titles, which is obviously quite an achievement. However, he was very reluctant to put the title on the line. He had (I believe) a total of 1 successful title defense. 1 at middle, and none at heavyweight and none at light heavy.

Would have been great had he given Corbett a rematch.

Obviously a great fighter, but clearly not as good as Greb.