Holmes vs Liston

[abdelfadeeli]

I side with Liston. Holmes is one of the few guys I give a genuine chance against Sonny which shows how highly I rank both guy's abilities.

The battle of the jabs would be interesting. Sonny's is more authoritative and carries much more power and dominance, whereas Holmes has a quicker, sharper jab. His is between Sonny's and Ali's. He'd sometimes paw with it to set up the right hand too. Holmes could win rounds with the jab, Sonny could win the fight with it, by KO. Holmes also had a super quick right hand in his ****nal, along with incredible powers of recuperation and good lateral movement. The thing with those powers of recuperation, is that he needed to use them a little bit too often for me to pick him over Liston. Shavers was a huge puncher but let's not pretend he was any kind of skilled boxer. He shouldn't have hit Larry in the first place. If Shavers could nail him once, Sonny could do it several times. He also got shaken up by the likes of Witherspoon and Snipes. He came back at them, but if they can shake him up and almost stop him just imagine what Sonny Liston left hook could do.

Now Sonny couldn't nullify Holmes' jab completely, I'm not sure anybody could, but with his underrated defensive head movement (as displayed against Williams often under appreciated quick left hand) he wouldn't be eating Larry's left glove all night like some limited brawler. His own jab would be making it hard for Larry to establish anything. Holmes knows Sonny can hurt not just with either hand but with pretty much any punch.

I see the fight being there to win for both guys. Holmes can't get too punchy or Sonny knocks him out of the ring, so Liston wins rounds by being assertive and Holmes nicks his rounds by being quick and moving. I don't see Liston getting stopped. Larry could hit but Liston at his best could go the distance with a broken jaw. He was stopped when way, way past his best and totally exhausted and against Ali, but that's another story in itself.

In the 11th, with Holmes having used his legs for as much as possible during the fight (the only sure fire way to beat Liston) he stands still for a moment too long and gets sat down by a long Liston left hook that would knock out most guys. Holmes rises, groggily, but he's up. The difference between most guys who hurt their opponent and Liston is that most guys swing swing swing with everything they've got. A guy as brave and with the survival instinct of Holmes can avoid that. Liston didn't. He kept his bombs precise and rarely missed/wasted a punch when he was performing an execution and I think he'd show this against Holmes. Liston KO11.

[dr_devious]

Holmes may be able to win on points, hard one to call Sonny was an absolute beast at his peak

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Holmes climbs off the canvas in round 5 to win a very close split dec his better boxing skills just prevailing.

[PredatorHayds]

I'd edge Holmes on points coming on strong late.

[yancey]

This would be one hell of an interesting fight.

I tend to side with Sonny on this one, but don't really have a good gut feeling on what exactly would go down.

[Syntax Error]

Battle of the two best jabbing HW champions IMHO.

This would be a hard fight to call, but I'm inclined to side with Holmes in a close fight.

He controlled his bouts with his piston like jab, but he'd have to eat a lot of Liston's ramrod piledriver jab in return.

Liston was tough & Holmes did not have to power to deter him: Holmes had the best recuperative powers I've ever seen & if he did find himself down or out, he'd almost certainly be up & firing back pretty quickly, so Liston would know he was in a fight too.

Very close bout that could have gone either way.

[keithmoonhangover]

Sonny was an absolute beast at his peak

Don't you think that makes Clay/Ali's wins over Liston even more exceptional?

[Scypion]

My money would be on Sonny.

[Seamus]

Holmes is more resilient and better under pressure. If his jab isn't as hard as Liston's it's still faster, and he's better on his feet. Holmes starts pulling away in the second half of the fight and wins something like 145-140.

[yancey]

Sonny was an absolute beast at his peak

Don't you think that makes Clay/Ali's wins over Liston even more exceptional?

Sonny was well past peak for the Ali fights.

[keithmoonhangover]

Sonny was an absolute beast at his peak

Don't you think that makes Clay/Ali's wins over Liston even more exceptional?

Sonny was well past peak for the Ali fights.

Coming off his two career defining wins? Not sure about that. Either way, Ali would have beaten him at any stage of his career. Liston would never have been able to handle him.

[dr_devious]

Sonny was an absolute beast at his peak

Don't you think that makes Clay/Ali's wins over Liston even more exceptional?

At his peak, Sonny was well past it when he fought Ali

[keithmoonhangover]

Sonny was an absolute beast at his peak

Don't you think that makes Clay/Ali's wins over Liston even more exceptional?

At his peak, Sonny was well past it when he fought Ali

Based on what? He was dominant in his fights leading up to it. Any evidence to back up this claim?

[dr_devious]

Don't you think that makes Clay/Ali's wins over Liston even more exceptional?

At his peak, Sonny was well past it when he fought Ali

Based on what? He was dominant in his fights leading up to it. Any evidence to back up this claim?

Articles I've read about Liston's career point to the fact he was somewhat faded by the time he lost to Ali.

Floyd Patterson was terrified of Liston who was much bigger and had earned an ogreish reputation.

I do think that Ali's wins over Sonny were exceptional, the second fight seemed pretty strange to say the least. Also I don't think any version of Sonny beats Ali

[keithmoonhangover]

At his peak, Sonny was well past it when he fought Ali

Based on what? He was dominant in his fights leading up to it. Any evidence to back up this claim?

Articles I've read about Liston's career point to the fact he was somewhat faded by the time he lost to Ali.

Do you think he was still at his peak? What did he ever do after the Ali fights?

Entering the Ali fights, he was feared and considered unbeatable. As far as I'm aware, there was no mention at that time of Liston being faded. As far as I can see, him being not at his peak is revisionist history,

What did he do after the being dominated by Ali? That's another story.

[knockouts67]

Holmes by decision 9 to 6 or 10 to 5! Holmes jab was quicker and he had tons of heart! Liston proved he did not! He quit twice! Holmes takes over after 7 or 8 and dominates the late rounds!

[yancey]

Don't you think that makes Clay/Ali's wins over Liston even more exceptional?

Sonny was well past peak for the Ali fights.

Coming off his two career defining wins? Not sure about that. Either way, Ali would have beaten him at any stage of his career. Liston would never have been able to handle him.

1959-60 were more like the prime years for Sonny.

Just because he twice made short work of Patterson, who was way out-sized and intimidated, does not make '62 and '63 the peak of Sonny.

A 1959-60 motivated and prime Sonny makes for a considerably tougher test for '64 Ali.

And forget their 1965 Lewiston rematch. Sonny laid down.

[Crease]

Based on what? He was dominant in his fights leading up to it.

Agreed. Liston was fiercely dominant even before Patterson gave him his World Title shot.
He had beaten repeated top contenders - Cleveland Williams, Zora Volley, Eddie Machen & Nino Valdes before even getting the shot. With only Eddie being the one to take him the distance.

[dr_devious]

The fights you mention above were 3-4 years before he lost to Ali

[Crease]

Articles I've read about Liston's career point to the fact he was somewhat faded by the time he lost to Ali.

I'd like to read the articles in question. It's guaranteed that they aren't dated from that era.

Leading up to the Ali fight, the challenger was considered a MASSIVE underdog...
For the only reason that Liston was the most feared & intimidating in living memory. He was just a scary guy & a dominant fighter.

[dr_devious]

Yes he had an ogreish reputation and it was earned both inside and outside the ring. I just think there was something amiss about the fights, Sonny was probably a little past his best and the second fight was rumoured to be a tank job. I think he'd have gone the distance all things being even, he wasn't a flat track bully he'd gone the distance in his first loss with a broken jaw

[Crease]

The fights you mention above were 3-4 years before he lost to Ali

Yes, I realise that. But Listen was still only 34 years of age when he met Ali, his supposed decline couldn't have that steep.

And let me tell you - NO ONE mentioned or recognised Liston's decline and no boxing pundit or boxing writer picked Ali to win.

[dr_devious]

Nobody knew his real age and he'd had a very hard life, not hard to believe he was somewhat faded in 1964.

I'm not saying peak Liston would have beaten Ali or trying to minimise a fabulous victory

[keithmoonhangover]

Yes he had an ogreish reputation and it was earned both inside and outside the ring. I just think there was something amiss about the fights, Sonny was probably a little past his best and the second fight was rumoured to be a tank job. I think he'd have gone the distance all things being even, he wasn't a flat track bully he'd gone the distance in his first loss with a broken jaw

The truth is, he just couldn't handle Ali who had the perfect style to beat him. Ali's speed made Sonny look like his feet were stuck in quick sand. After being dominated and pretty much taking a beating, despite the cheating with the gloves, Sonny quit. In fairness, he lost to one of the two best heavyweights ever.

[keithmoonhangover]

Nobody knew his real age and he'd had a very hard life, not hard to believe he was somewhat faded in 1964.

I'm not saying peak Liston would have beaten Ali or trying to minimise a fabulous victory

He was still at his peak going into that fight. There isn't a single scrap of evidence to say otherwise.