Biggest unfulfilled potential?

[Controversial]

Floyd Patterson, turned pro 17, by 23 was world heavyweight champ with multiple defences,

George Chuvalo, turned pro 18, by 23 had boxed a slew of top class opponents,

Jerry Quarry, turned pro 19, by 23 had boxed for the world heavyweight title,

Big Cat Williams, turned pro 18, by 23 had boxed 40+ fights and numerous contenders,

Ernie Terrell, turned pro 18, by 23 had boxed numerous contenders,

Henry Clark, turned pro 19, by 23 had boxed a scary number of brutes,

Cassius Clay, turned pro 18, by 23 was world heavyweight champ

Bugner did indeed have several more fights under his belt than all of them by the age of 23 and only Patterson turned pro younger. Sorry I like working these things out, it's my OCD lol. I took the age as when they turned 23, not including any fights they went on to have that same year as they were then older than 23. What is often said had a big effect on Bugner was the fact an early opponent of his died (Ulric Regis) and he was never quite the same again.

Patterson turned pro aged 17 years 8 months
35 fights by the time he turned 23

Burner turned pro aged 17 years 9 months
49 fights by the time he turned 23

Terrell turned pro aged 18 years 1 month
28 fights by the time he turned 23

Williams turned pro aged 18 years 5 months
34 fights by the time he turned 23

Chuvalo turned pro aged 18 years 7 months
24 fights by the time he turned 23

Ali turned pro aged 18 years 9 months
21 fights by the time he turned 23

Clark turned pro aged 19 years 2 months
21 fights by the time he turned 23

Quarry turned pro aged 19 years 11 months
33 fights by the time he turned 23



.

[PredatorHayds]

Tony Jeffries I always thought would of done well as a Pro. Especially with his Olympic pedigree and fanbase.

Jaffa is a really canny lad. Big shame about his premature retirement, He's living the dream out in California now with his wife and two kids.

Saw him on a episode of The Blacklist a few weeks ago.

[Tuan_Jim]

Now, getting back to the point. I originally stated that Bugner turned professional unusually young and was a remarkably busy fighter in his youth, which is true. This, I believe, led, at least in part, to him not fulfilling his potential inasmuch as he was pushed too fast, too young and was therefore more or less burnt out by his mid-20s. Which, in turn, led to him going off the rails and effectively wasting what should have been his prime years. Not difficult to grasp really.

In the meantime, I await your list of 17 year old heavyweights who had 50-odd fights and went in with likes of Ali and Frazier when still in their early-20s.

ps my point about Patterson being a middleweight at 17 is quite valid as it's more usual in the lighter weight categories for fighters to turn pro at a younger age, and always has been (though usually at lightweight and below, to be fair).

My 'they must have blond hair, and be Hungarian' remark was obviously a joke about the excessive qualifiers you have added to each of your subsequent posts in order to load the challenge - and now here we have a brand new one: They also have to have boxed the likes of Ali and Frazier! I guess they will have to be 17 years and 9 months old precisely as Ernie Terrell turned pro 18 years and 1 month and even he was rejected.

How far we have come from 'it wasn't uncommon for heavyweights in their 20s, in their prime, to be fighting each other'.

My point stands and if I had the inclination I could produce plenty of heavies who turned pro teen and had a lot of fights against contenders. Unfortunately I'm a grown man with better things to do than comb boxrec for the gratification of a man who has added a new qualifier in every single reply he has written thus far. This is not how adults conduct themselves.

NB. Regarding Patterson - he turned pro at light heavyweight, with an eye to moving up.

[Bodyshot3]

Anyway, back OT, my actual point was that Bugner did not achieve his potential because of the way he was handled (basically too much, too young) and I stand by that. I think his career would have been quite different if he turned over at 22 or 23, as most heavies at that time did - rather than being a veteran of 50 fights by that age.

Joe has always intrigued me a great deal and so has the debate between writers and fans when they discuss him.

I think the 'general consensus' a few years back was that to beat the very elite fighters he had to compete against Joe needed a punch that would stop them in their tracks. Not necessarily a pure, knockout shot...but rather a case of having a heavier hook or uppercut that caught the judges eye and forced a guy to step back and reset.

There was a strongly held view that for a big, very athletic fella - every inch the physical equal of his American rivals - he did not fully commit to shots that he was actually well capable of unloading.

This view seemed to get reinforced when a much older Joe came back - less mobile and tricky - and started knocking out a few folk early doors.

But I agree with Mercman that too many fights too early was undoubtedly an issue... Joe got somewhat caught in a rut of getting the win without getting busted-up but not getting prepared for bigger battles.

He churned through plenty of opponents - took the pay day - but was perhaps missing that vital edge when it came to overcoming the very best.

Today, his talent would have been treated very differently and nurtured carefully.

[keithmoonhangover]

I wanted to say 'Thank you' for adding me to that boxing group, it's excellent - I was nattering with Nate Campbell and Wilbert 'Vampire' Johnson - it's beyond cool. Thank you Fletch

You're welcome mate. James Toney isn't happy with me. I talked to Riddick Bowe about dumping the WBC belt. He said it was Rock's idea and Newman said they were "bigger than the WBC", I might be wrong, but it sounded to me like Riddick regretted it. Donny Lalonde is such a nice guy and very polite and amiable.

Glad you like it.

[palooka]

What did you say to upset James Toney? Livingstone Bramble, Jose Ribalta and Pat Cowdell have been on today!

[Counter-puncher]

Anyway, back OT, my actual point was that Bugner did not achieve his potential because of the way he was handled (basically too much, too young) and I stand by that. I think his career would have been quite different if he turned over at 22 or 23, as most heavies at that time did - rather than being a veteran of 50 fights by that age.

Joe has always intrigued me a great deal and so has the debate between writers and fans when they discuss him.

I think the 'general consensus' a few years back was that to beat the very elite fighters he had to compete against Joe needed a punch that would stop them in their tracks. Not necessarily a pure, knockout shot...but rather a case of having a heavier hook or uppercut that caught the judges eye and forced a guy to step back and reset.

There was a strongly held view that for a big, very athletic fella - every inch the physical equal of his American rivals - he did not fully commit to shots that he was actually well capable of unloading.

This view seemed to get reinforced when a much older Joe came back - less mobile and tricky - and started knocking out a few folk early doors.

But I agree with Mercman that too many fights too early was undoubtedly an issue... Joe got somewhat caught in a rut of getting the win without getting busted-up but not getting prepared for bigger battles.

He churned through plenty of opponents - took the pay day - but was perhaps missing that vital edge when it came to overcoming the very best.

Today, his talent would have been treated very differently and nurtured carefully.

Yeah, that seems a pretty fair assessment to me, mate. Here's an alternative scenario for Bugner, one in which he is handled more carefully.

1) He stays as an amateur for, say, another 5 years and competes in both the Commonwealth and Olympic Games in 1970 and '72 respectively. It's not unrealistic to assume that he might have won a Commonwealth gold, and maybe even got some sort of Olympic medal (though it's difficult to say).

2) Turns pro the following year and builds up 15 or so wins over the next couple of years before beating Richard Dunn for the British and European titles, circa '75 or '76 (Henry Cooper being well retired by then so no need to beat him and alienate the British public).

3) Then defends the European title against the likes of Evangelista, Coopmans, Zanon etc. before beating one or two carefully selected 'name' Americans circa 1978 eg. a fading Jimmy Young, maybe a Scott le Doux. Possibly beats an up-and-coming John L Gardner somewhere along the way too. This makes him a leading contender by the age of 28 and after about maybe 30 fights.

4) Challenges Larry Holmes for the WBC title circa 1979, but loses bravely. Maybe a late stoppage. Bugner then fights and beats Mike Weaver for the WBA title the following year, winning on points over 15 rounds.

5) He's then celebrated as Britain's first heavyweight champion since Fitzsimmons and goes on to defend his title a couple of times before losing to, say, Mike Dokes and then retires at about 32 with the proceeds of half a dozen title fights under his belt. All in all, a career of say 38 fights, not nearly 80 or whatever he ended up having.

6) No comebacks thereafter.

Excellent post IMO, albeit as far as I know bugner wanted and needed the money to support his family/mother so I'm not sure the slower track would have been the route for him, on non-boxing grounds

[keithmoonhangover]

What did you say to upset James Toney? Livingstone Bramble, Jose Ribalta and Pat Cowdell have been on today!

I said he was he was a convicted drugs cheat. Nowt like the truth mate.

[palooka]

What did you say to upset James Toney? Livingstone Bramble, Jose Ribalta and Pat Cowdell have been on today!

I said he was he was a convicted drugs cheat. Nowt like the truth mate.

how to make friends and influence people!

[keithmoonhangover]

What did you say to upset James Toney? Livingstone Bramble, Jose Ribalta and Pat Cowdell have been on today!

I said he was he was a convicted drugs cheat. Nowt like the truth mate.

how to make friends and influence people!

I have a knack of saying the wrong thing.

[mrmandoc]

Ike "The President" Ibeabuchi was a beast but mental problems and prison plaqued his life.

[mrmandoc]

Ike "The President" Ibeabuchi was a beast but mental problems and prison plaqued his life.