Post Your Scorecards

[King Carlos]

Bruh, you have some bad scorecards.

[scartissue]

Hedgemon Lewis vs. Carlos Palomino

I scored this bout several years ago and had it 5-4-1 for Lewis. Sat down now to rewatch and again, I have it close but slightly different. I don't have my original scorecard, but wouldn't be surprised if some of my rounds were different - that's the kind of fight it was, very close. Anyways, here we go, California scoring in effect. One point for a round and no points for an even round.

Round 1: Lewis
Round 2: Lewis
Round 3: Lewis
Round 4: Lewis
Round 5: Even
Round 6: Palomino
Round 7: Palomino
Round 8: Palomino (I briefly hesitated between an even round - that close)
Round 9: Palomino
Round 10: Even

Total: 4-4 Draw

I was good with the draw. Even with my original score of 5-4 I was good with the draw. These are some very close rounds where Lewis dominated from the outside and Palomino dominated on the infighting. Good fight. Incidentally, a rematch was scheduled, but Lewis got the offer to fight John Stracey for the title and the only way Aileen Eaton allowed that rematch to be cancelled was for Mickey Duff to agree to sign Carlos Palomino for the title in the event that Stracey won. And the rest is history.

[scartissue]

You guys are going to thank me for this one. We're talking Gaby Canizales vs. Louis Curtis. What a pace these two set. Saw it back in the day, but the wait was well worth it to see it again. Here we go, 10 point must system.

Round 1: 10-10 Even
Round 2: 10-9 Canizales
Round 3: 10-9 Curtis
Round 4: 10-9 Canizales
Round 5: 10-9 Canizales
Round 6: 10-10 Even
Round 7: 10-10 Even
Round 8: 10-9 Canizales
Round 9: 10-9 Canizales
Round 10: 10-9 Canizales
Round 11: 10-9 Curtis
Round 12: 10-9 Canizales

Total: 118-113 Canizales

This bout really depends on your preferences in scoring. Do you like busier taps or something with more heft. Again, this was fought at break-neck speed, so you'll have to decide in the field. hope you like it.

[scartissue]

Here's an old gem for us, the 1963 Hurricane Carter-Georgie Benton fight. Good fight, but this was frustrating as hell to watch for me. When Benton stays on the outside he is very pretty to watch. He has a beautiful jab and sharp-shoots with the right. The fight was his to lose and he did. He spends 90% of the fight on the inside fighting Carter's fight. And it appears it is of his own volition rather than Carter being that forceful. Here we go. New York's rounds basis.

Round 1: Carter
Round 2: Carter
Round 3: Even
Round 4: Carter
Round 5: Benton
Round 6: Carter
Round 7: Benton
Round 8: Even
Round 9: Carter
Round 10: Carter

Total 6-2-2 Carter

Round 10 was the best. Carter started so strong, but in the middle of the round Benton takes over and appears to hurt Carter, but then Carter finishes with a rush to take the round. Again, strange that Benton would fight Carter's fight, especially when Benton was known as a cutie. Rumors were rife at the time that Teddy Brenner had Holly Mims go in the tank against Carter. I'm wondering......

[scartissue]

I've been looking for this fight for awhile. The bout between Juan LaPorte and Ruben Castillo. I didn't see it when it took place, but had predicted a Castillo victory. 4 times at the gate for Castillo, but just couldn't grasp it. This one I thought was a sure thing, but what can you do. Here we go, 10 point must system.

Round 1: 10-9 Castillo
Round 2: 10-10 Even
Round 3: 10-10 Even
Round 4: 10-9 LaPorte
Round 5: 10-9 Castillo
Round 6: 10-9 Castillo
Round 7: 10-9 LaPorte
Round 8: 10-9 LaPorte
Round 9: 10-10 Even (Castillo edged most of the round but LaPorte hurt him within the last 30 seconds which drew it even on my card - also spelled the beginning of the end for Castillo)
Round 10: 10-8 LaPorte (Ref gave Castillo a standing 8 count)
Round 11: 10-10 Even (this round will test anyone's judging skills - Castillo has a good round but is dropped in the last 5 seconds of the round - can't ignore Castillo's work through 7/8 of the round, but gave Laporte point for the KD - even round)
Round 12: 10-8 LaPorte (LaPorte scores a knockdown)

Total: 117-113 LaPorte

For anyone looking for this bout on youtube, it is simply called JL vs RC, which is why I never found it until now, by chance.

[Counter-puncher]

Castillo was a good little skilled fighter, to come up against Arguello, Sanchez, Chavez, and Laporte as his 'easy' title shot is a real rough way to try to win a world title.

[Counter-puncher]

Just having a look, nice little match, good find thanks

Castillo looks just like he always did, nice quick feet and left hook but can't really crack an egg.

[scartissue]

Counter, tell me, how would you have scored that 11th round? IMO, it's the easy way out to score it 10-8 for LaPorte. But in a 10 point must system the points are there to be utilized and I just can't forget that Castillo was winning that round for 2:55 of the round. I gave LaPorte the one point for his knockdown, but it would have been 10-9 for Castillo without it. This particular round exemplifies the question, "what if a fighter dominates the round and the other fighter scores a knockdown". Again, I scored it 10-10 because of the above reasons. Your thoughts?

[Counter-puncher]

I only caught the first coupla rounds brother, had to cook and eat, I'll get back to you on that

[Counter-puncher]

Counter, tell me, how would you have scored that 11th round? IMO, it's the easy way out to score it 10-8 for LaPorte. But in a 10 point must system the points are there to be utilized and I just can't forget that Castillo was winning that round for 2:55 of the round. I gave LaPorte the one point for his knockdown, but it would have been 10-9 for Castillo without it. This particular round exemplifies the question, "what if a fighter dominates the round and the other fighter scores a knockdown". Again, I scored it 10-10 because of the above reasons. Your thoughts?

Thats as good as any logic I can come up with, albeit I doubt modern judges would score anything but 10-8 for that, its a nice conundrum.

I had it 115-112

The fight is a good example of why Castillo always fell that little bit short, although the level of his opposition had a lot to do with it too and I am pretty sire there have been plenty of beltholders in the last thirty years that he could have climbed the mountain against. All too often his lack of power was shown when he would land one or two shots but laporte could just eat them and fire back. He worked well to the body with the left and I thought he should have used it more, it was seemingly the only punch he could land without Laporte just hitting him back.

[scartissue]

Counter, thanks man. I think you're right, most of those judges out there would just go for the low-hanging fruit. They would rather score it 10-8 and be done with it, without putting some thought into it. And you're probably right also in regards to Castillo's lack of that tide-turning punch. Such a nice fighter though. I read he roomed with Art Hafey for years and that Hafey was instrumental in making him get up for gym or roadwork. How ironic that Art couldn't get a title-shot and Ruben had four. The story of the game.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Counter, tell me, how would you have scored that 11th round? IMO, it's the easy way out to score it 10-8 for LaPorte. But in a 10 point must system the points are there to be utilized and I just can't forget that Castillo was winning that round for 2:55 of the round. I gave LaPorte the one point for his knockdown, but it would have been 10-9 for Castillo without it. This particular round exemplifies the question, "what if a fighter dominates the round and the other fighter scores a knockdown". Again, I scored it 10-10 because of the above reasons. Your thoughts?

I was just talking to someone on here about Holyfield/Cooper rd 3 the other day. No way is that 10-8 for Bert, more like 10-10 or 10-9 Holyfield.

[Ambling Alp II]

There were two rounds in Chacon-Boza Edwards II where Boza-Edwards was having a good round but Chacon scored a knockdown late in the round. I believe the judges scored the rounds 10-8 for Chacon.

It is too bad that judges usually take the easy way out. It's almost automatic that it's 10-8 if there is a knockdown regardless of the rest of the round.
Other rounds that one fighter does everything but knock his opponent down are almost always 10-9, as if he just barely won it.

[scartissue]

Just checked out the Buster Mathis-George Chuvalo fight. Fairly one-sided and lacking the intensity of some Chuvalo fights but I think he was about 30 or 31 by this time and just couldn't put together a sustained attack like the Chuvalo who fought Patterson or Jones and it was one punch at a time. Anyways I only gave George the 6th round, had rounds 1 & 7 even and gave the rest to Buster for a 9-1-2 scorecard. Would love it if the Quarry - Mathis fight was ever found and uploaded on youtube. Jerry apparently dominated Mathis the way Buster did here.

[scartissue]

Here's another gem I just watched for the first time. Eddie machen vs. Doug Jones. Two class fighters that show what two heavys under 200 lbs. can do. Beautiful combos, counters and head and body work. Just a nice fight. Here we go, 10 point must system.

Round 1: 10-9 Machen
Round 2: 10-9 Machen
Round 3: 10-9 Machen
Round 4: 10-9 Machen
Round 5: 10-9 Machen
Round 6: 10-9 Machen
Round 7: 10-9 Machen
Round 8: 10-9 Jones (this round was about a minute and a half short on the video)
Round 9: 10-10 Even
Round 10: 10-9 Jones

98-93 Machen

A lot of those early rounds were close, but every time I was close to scoring a round even, Machen would explode with something. He was just the busier fighter of the two.

[scartissue]

Here's another one I've just seen for the first time. The 1973 Masao Ohba v Chartchai Chionoi flyweight title fight. Man, two warriors if there ever was any. Ohba came back after a disastrous first round where he was dropped and quite obviously injured his ankle on the way down, to stop his game opponent in the 12th. Here is my card through 11 rounds. 5 point must system.

Round 1: 5-3 Chionoi (scores a knockdown)
Round 2: 5-4 Ohba
Round 3: 5-4 Chionoi
Round 4: 5-4 Ohba
Round 5: 5-4 Ohba
Round 6: 5-4 Ohba
Round 7: 5-4 Chionoi
Round 8: 5-4 Ohba
Round 9: 5-4 Ohba
Round 10: 5-4 Ohba
Round 11: 5-4 Ohba

Total: 51-47 Ohba through 11 completed rounds

Actually thought the ref would have stopped it after the second knockdown of the 12th, but they let things go on a bit longer then. Good fight.

[davie]

Antonio cervantes v Nicolino Locche 2

1. Cervantes
2. Cervantes
3. Locche
4. Locche
5. Cervantes
6. Cervantes
7. Cervantes
8. Cervantes
9. Cervantes

I read a bit about Locche and him being one of the best defensive fighters ever. Looking at his record I thought what better fight to watch, to see this defensive genius at work than a one sided shut out against an ATG like Cervantes.

2 rounds in and I was wondering how it was that all 3 judges gave every round to Locche, then I realised this was the rematch.

Not a classic but a decent match none the less. Not a huge amount landed throughout for either man, in part because Locche still retained defensive skills and elusive movement to make Cervantes miss, in part because Locche was presumably ageing, his output was low and he did seem to have the speed to close the distance against the taller rangier man.
Most of the round were close but if Locche's defeat was largely down to the fact he was getting on in years, it's not impossible to imagine how he might have shut Cervantes out a couple years earlier.
He was able to make Cervantes miss quite regular, partly because he clearly retained his defensive skillset and partly because, for an elite level fighter, Cervantes certainly seemed to load up and telegraph a lot of his punches.
I would imagine if he was a bit quicker with the counters, Locche would have had a lot more success and I can't imagine the cut he suffered in the second round helped his case any either.

Cervantes was the deserving winner however, can't take that away from him, he was the aggressor and worked hard enough that I still felt he landed the more clean shots.

Locche was absolutely furious at the manner in which the fight was stopped

[scartissue]

Antonio cervantes v Nicolino Locche 2

1. Cervantes
2. Cervantes
3. Locche
4. Locche
5. Cervantes
6. Cervantes
7. Cervantes
8. Cervantes
9. Cervantes

I read a bit about Locche and him being one of the best defensive fighters ever. Looking at his record I thought what better fight to watch, to see this defensive genius at work than a one sided shut out against an ATG like Cervantes.

2 rounds in and I was wondering how it was that all 3 judges gave every round to Locche, then I realised this was the rematch.

Not a classic but a decent match none the less. Not a huge amount landed throughout for either man, in part because Locche still retained defensive skills and elusive movement to make Cervantes miss, in part because Locche was presumably ageing, his output was low and he did seem to have the speed to close the distance against the taller rangier man.
Most of the round were close but if Locche's defeat was largely down to the fact he was getting on in years, it's not impossible to imagine how he might have shut Cervantes out a couple years earlier.
He was able to make Cervantes miss quite regular, partly because he clearly retained his defensive skillset and partly because, for an elite level fighter, Cervantes certainly seemed to load up and telegraph a lot of his punches.
I would imagine if he was a bit quicker with the counters, Locche would have had a lot more success and I can't imagine the cut he suffered in the second round helped his case any either.

Cervantes was the deserving winner however, can't take that away from him, he was the aggressor and worked hard enough that I still felt he landed the more clean shots.

Locche was absolutely furious at the manner in which the fight was stopped

Davie, I had it a bit different, but not much.

Round 1: 10-9 Cervantes
Round 2: 10-9 Cervantes
Round 3: 10-9 Cervantes
Round 4: 10-9 Cervantes
Round 5: 10-9 Cervantes
Round 6: 10-10 Even
Round 7: 10-9 Cervantes
Round 8: 10-9 Cervantes
Round 9: 10-9 Cervantes

Total: 90-82 Cervantes through 9 completed rounds

I thought Loche scored with some decent counters in rounds 4, 5 and 9 but not enough to take the rounds. He just couldn't put anything sustained together. Cervantes really controlled this show.

[davie]

Total: 90-82 Cervantes through 9 completed rounds

I thought Loche scored with some decent counters in rounds 4, 5 and 9 but not enough to take the rounds. He just couldn't put anything sustained together. Cervantes really controlled this show.

Kind of agree but definitely got the feeling Locches age played a part. it was towards the end of his career and 2 years earlier he had completely shut out Cervantes
Cervantes was winning rounds as he was throwing more and landing more but he was made to miss a lot as well and I'd never say he looked in control.

Locche just didn't seem to have the speed to close him down and get his punches off.

I'd love to see the bout from '71.

I'm going to view another fight or 2 from either man to get a feel for how good they were at their best, I don't think either man did themselves justice in this fight.

[scartissue]

Davie, one of the things that has been recently nagging at me about the whole Loche legacy is how good was he really? I mean, I always thought he was one of the top guys at 140 on paper until seeing some of him in action. What I see is a defensive genius but a guy who really didn't throw many punches. I recall Adolph Pruitt screaming he was robbed and that if it wasn't him fighting there wouldn't be a fight. I did see a brilliant display against Paul Fuji, however, that 15th round against Cervantes in the first fight sticks in my craw. people will say how he made a fool of Cervantes and that is why the judges scored it 15-0. I say, open your eyes, I scored that 15th round for Cervantes. He was the only one throwing punches while Loche mugged for the camera and rarely countered. Cervantes wasn't missing all his punches. Loche was on the tail-end of the jab throughout the round and I don't score for someone being cute. Food for thought: out of the 136 pro fights he fought, 132 of them were fought in argentina. He went 1-2-1 in the other four where he didn't have the advantage of home-cooking. Realistically, I have no doubt he was good but his career might have been different if he had to really fight hard for that decision and not just show up and make faces.

[davie]

Davie, one of the things that has been recently nagging at me about the whole Loche legacy is how good was he really? I mean, I always thought he was one of the top guys at 140 on paper until seeing some of him in action. What I see is a defensive genius but a guy who really didn't throw many punches. I recall Adolph Pruitt screaming he was robbed and that if it wasn't him fighting there wouldn't be a fight. I did see a brilliant display against Paul Fuji, however, that 15th round against Cervantes in the first fight sticks in my craw. people will say how he made a fool of Cervantes and that is why the judges scored it 15-0. I say, open your eyes, I scored that 15th round for Cervantes. He was the only one throwing punches while Loche mugged for the camera and rarely countered. Cervantes wasn't missing all his punches. Loche was on the tail-end of the jab throughout the round and I don't score for someone being cute. Food for thought: out of the 136 pro fights he fought, 132 of them were fought in argentina. He went 1-2-1 in the other four where he didn't have the advantage of home-cooking. Realistically, I have no doubt he was good but his career might have been different if he had to really fight hard for that decision and not just show up and make faces.

Interesting take mate, this is my first viewing of Locche, so I can only go off that 1 fight and what I read of him.

Did you see the first fight at the time?
I didn't see footage of it on Youtube, I might have another look.
I'll have a watch at some more of Locche fighting and let you know what I think

[King Carlos]

Locche could fight very well when he wanted to, but he didn't often need to due to A) the Argentinian judging system at the time, and B) his immense popularity. He could get away with just clowning and going through the motions in most cases, and he knew it. In my opinion, he looked phenomenal against Fuji and Carlos Hernandez, pretty ordinary overall in most of the other footage.

[davie]

1. Turpin
2. Turpin
3. Turpin
4. Turpin
5. Turpin
6. Robinson
7. Robinson
8. Robinson
9. Turpin
10. Robinson
11.Turpin
12. Robinson
13. Turpin
14. Turpin
15.Robinson

144 - 141 Turpin

[Seamus]

Watched some Heavyweights for a change.

Mike Weaver vs James "Quick" Tillis

R1.10-9 JT
R2.10-9 JT
R3.10-9 MW
R4.10-10
R5.10-10
R6.10-9 MW
R7.10-9 MW
R8.10-9 MW
R9.10-10
R10.10-9 MW
R11.10-9 MW
R12.10-9 JT
R13.10-9 MW
R14.10-9 MW
R15.10-9 MW

Mike Weaver 147-141

Heard this was a very boring fight and had only watched parts of it. The first half was kinda dull but the second half was decent. Tillis was disappointing in that I clearly thought he had the ability to make this alot closer. He had his moments in the later rounds, but as one sportswriter said of him, "He's like an artist in the ring, he does something brilliant and then steps back to admire his work".

Larry Holmes vs Mike Weaver

R1.10-9 LH
R2.10-9 LH
R3.10-10
R4.10-9 MW
R5.10-9 MW
R6.10-10
R7.10-9 LH
R8.10-9 LH
R9.10-9 LH
R10.10-9 MW
R11.10-8 LH (Weaver down and hurt bad at the end of the rd from a right uppercut in a round he was winning)
R12. Holmes stops a defenseless Weaver.

Larry Holmes TKO 12

I'd be a bigger fan of the HW's if there were more bouts like this. Holmes jabbed and fired combinations with bad intentions early, but Weaver soaked it up and picked his shot well and worked Holmes body effectively. It was starting to look like anyone's fight when Larry landed that devastating uppercut.

Muhammad Ali vs Earnie Shavers

R1.MA 1pt
R2.ES 2pts
R3.Even
R4.ES 1 pt
R5.MA 1 pt
R6.ES 1 pt
R7.ES 1pt
R8.ES 1pt
R9.ES 1pt
R10.MA 1pt
R11.MA 1pt
R12.MA 1pt
R13.ES 1pt
R14.ES 1pt
R15.MA 1pt

not sure exactly how this was scored. If it's round by round then I had Earnie Shavers winning 8-6-1. If it was supplemental scoring then for the 2pt round for Shaver, I have him winning 9-6. Frustrating performance from Ali who controlled the action when he moved and jabbed, but blew rounds when he played rope a dope without countering very much. Possibly Shavers best performance ever, but Ali had him hurt at the very end.

Jerry Quarry vs Floyd Patterson I

R1.JQ 1pt
R2.JQ 3pts (Patterson down from a left hook and then from an overhand right)
R3.FP 1pt
R4.FP 1pt
R5.FP 1pt
R6.Even
R7.FP 2pts (Quarry down from a short right after a left)
R8.FP 1pt
R9.JQ 1pt
R10.Even

Floyd Patterson 6-5

Patterson just edged it on my card by being faster and busier on the inside, and despite the 10 yr age disadvantage he appeared to have the better stamina.

Jerry Quarry vs Floyd Patterson II

R1.FP 1pt
R2.JQ 2pts (Patterson down from a left-right to the head)
R3.FP 1pt
R4.JQ 2pts (Patterson down from a flurry to the head)
R5.Even
R6.JQ 1pt
R7.Even
R8.FP 1pt
R9.Even
R10.FP 1pt
R11.Even
R12.Even.

Jerry Quarry 5-4

Looking at these two fights I really wouldn't argue with anyone who said Quarry won both, Patterson won both, they each had a win and it could be either fight, or they were both draws.

[scartissue]

You've been busy, Seamus. I scored the 2 Patterson-Quarry fights some time back. Here they are again. Although we scored differently, we did have the same winner both times.

Patterson-Quarry I

Round 1: Even-no points
Round 2: Quarry (2 knockdowns) 3 points
Round 3: Patterson
Round 4: Patterson
Round 5: Patterson
Round 6: Even
Round 7: Patterson (1 knockdown) 2 points
Round 8: Patterson
Round 9: Quarry
Round 10: Quarry

Patterson 6-5

Patterson-Quarry II

Round 1: Patterson
Round 2: Quarry (1 knockdown) 2 points
Round 3: Quarry
Round 4: Quarry (1 knockdown) 2 points
Round 5: Even
Round 6: Quarry
Round 7: Even
Round 8: Patterson
Round 9: Patterson
Round 10: Patterson
Round 11: Quarry
Round 12: Patterson

Quarry 7-5